Mike Kenyon:

There is no rule allowing skip warp missiles a dispensation from the way skip warp operates (except that if tractored they cannot employ skip warp, i.e., a tractor link to a skip warp missile overrides the skip warp system unlike a tractor link to a skip warp ship). So, under the rules, it is entirely possible, and required, for a skip warp missile that is at Range 1 to "skip" over its target, and then have to circle back to it since, under the rules, it cannot use a high energy turn at all. It is also entirely possible for a skip warp missile to miss its target because its "skip" must be straight ahead, and a ship which arrives in a hex adjacent to the missile could also see the missile enter a form of the "Zimdar's Dipsy-Doodle" situation but due to the prohibition on High Energy Turns not be able to hit the target. See (C91.6).

By Alex Lyons (Afwholf) on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Up until the Nicozians this has never been an issue, now that they exist I would like a clerification of the rules.

(G24.351) If a scout ship is used alone, it uses these values as they are stated.

(G24.352) If it is used with other non-scout ships on the same side, the reduced combat BPV is ignored and the economic BPV is used for both purposes. See exception in (G24.355).

Nicozian CA 160/140. If i use two of them, would that be 160 each or 140 each?

G24.351 states 'alone' G24.352 states 'non-scout'

These guys just fall into the crack in the middle

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Alex Lyons:

They are scouts, and if two of them appear, both are scouts and pay the scout cost. If one appears, you use the lower combat cost for purchasing, and the higher economic cost for victory determination.

By Alex Lyons (Afwholf) on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Ok, I wasnt sure because G24.352 specifically stated 'non-scout ships' Thanks for the clerification

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Alex Lyons:

I can see where (G24.352) creates the problem and have made a note to correct it. The point is that a lot of the electronic warfare effects of scouts require other ships to be present (hard to lend ECCM if there is no ship to lend ECCM to), and a scout can lend ECCM to another scout (as well as ECM). So if you have two scout ships, one can act as a scout providing electronic warfare services to the other allowing it to not power its own channels but use its power for weapons and other functions. Plus, they can trade off the duty, e.g., scout #1 lends scout #2 EW on Turn #1, then scout #2 lends scout #1 EW on Turn #2. Special sensors are optimized because the scout doing the fighting on a given turn can be allowing his channels to recover from blinding, or can have his channels ready for various seeking weapon defense functions and fire only after having used them for such, as well as being further protected by the seeking weapon defense function of the other scout's channels.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 12:05 am: Edit

(M93.221) What about RYN ships and Quantum Transporters? (Nick Samaras August 1, 2012).

(M93.391)Are Mass Drivers and Sub Space Rockets also affected by this rule? (Nick Samaras August 1, 2012).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 06:42 pm: Edit

(M93.221) What about RYN ships and Quantum Transporters? (Nick Samaras August 1, 2012). REPLY: Per (M93.0) "When triggered, the warp field inversion generator collapses into a small focus warp singularity, pulling all objects moving under warp power nearer to it." The RYN are for all intents and purposes sublight ships as they are not "moving under warp power."

(M93.391)Are Mass Drivers and Sub Space Rockets also affected by this rule? (Nick Samaras August 1, 2012). REPLY: Under the provisions of (OE22.355) I would have to say an active mine would block subspace rocket’s line of fire and thus stop it, but a subspace rocket would not trigger a mine itself while moving to its target under the provisions of (OE22.35). Mass drivers are treated under (ME2.68) and would trigger the mine and be destroyed as hyperdrones are.

By Stephen Elliott Parrish (Steveparrish) on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 04:13 pm: Edit

I finally had a chance to play a couple of games with the Nicozians. They were enjoyable, but it seems to me that they are too dependent upon their anti-shield missiles hitting. Failing that, they don't have much of a chance.

Apart from any other problems, this makes them very predictable, with limited options. Is anyone still testing them?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Guys:

The thing is that you are not given me any details. I have no idea what tactics you are using so I cannot see if there are flaws in your thinking or try to suggest alternatives. Further, the solutions might simply be a change in the BPV of the Nicozian ships rather than a change in their technology.

How exactly are you employing the missiles? In stacks? Dispersed so that a ship trying to avoid them has to shoot or take some defensive action against some of them? Are you working turn breaks to get more of them out than they can currently launch?

Are you only fighting them with one empire or have you tried them against multiple different empires?

Are they weak duelers and weak in squadron strength actions, or are they weak in one and strong in the other?

Before changes are made (even if just adjustments in BPV) I need more input than a"s we play them they are weak so we upgraded their weapons." I need detail. What happened and why. What tactics with the Nicozians did you try against what opponent.

Changes can be made. They are after all a playtest pack right now, but to make changes I need information to base the concept of changes on.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 10:16 pm: Edit

My knowledge of the Nicozians is more than 20 years old, and I have not seen the current rules. Caveat emptor.

One of the things we did with the missiles was try to get two missiles moving towards the target in adjacent hexes. For example, if a target were bearing in direction A, we'd have two missiles facing A, with a trailing missile in direction E relative to the lead missile.

We'd also try to line up missiles to come in converging waves, spaced an odd number of hexes apart, and we'd try to keep the last unlaunched missile in the rack a speed 20 for the inevitable close-in launch without using skip warp.

Now, it's entirely possible people have come up with good counters for that that we didn't think of back in the early 1990s.

On the rules interactions, the Nicozians were written before I wrote C5, and the weapon rule template/interactions checklist. It had never occurred to me to go through and reformat the rules to match it.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 11:20 pm: Edit

Nicozians on e23- http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=ADB7107
$5.00, 36 pages. Harcopy same price- http://store.starfleetstore.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=S&Product_Code=7107&Category_Code=SNWM

By Stephen Elliott Parrish (Steveparrish) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 02:41 pm: Edit

We have played the Nicozians against the Feds and the Klingons, in duels only. There are at least two problems. The first is that it is hard to win with the Nicozians,

We have tried different strategies with the missiles. Spacing and dispersing them does better than massing them.

Nonetheless, most missiles don't hit, and those that do often hit a shield that is not the one you need to damage. That the Nicozians can't use scatterpacks, and that their missiles can't HET makes things even worse.

Meanwhile, the enemy ship is also firing drones, and doing at least as well with them as the Nicozian missiles are. At the same time, they are firing Photons or Disrupters, along with phaser ones at the Nicozians. The Nicozian Space Auger, doesn't do well against shields, and the phaser Ps, even if they are not being used for drone defense, don't do as much damage as phaser ones at a distance.

The result is that the Nicozians are hit a lot more than the enemy ship.

We haven't come up with tactics to overcome this. Perhaps someone else can.

The second problem is that it make the Nicozians almost entirely dependent upon hitting with missiles. Which limits their options and less enjoyable to play.

Any ideas?

By Stephen Elliott Parrish (Steveparrish) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 03:01 pm: Edit

One additional problem: the awful turn mode that the Nicozians have. Until the missiles knock a hole in the enemy shields, they should stay out of range of the opponent's direct fire weapons. The turn mode makes this difficult to do.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Steven, it's not my place to make public suggestions on the Nicozians.

By Stephen Elliott Parrish (Steveparrish) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Ken: no problem. We have some ideas, but would like input from other players to see if we are on the right track or not.

BTW, I enjoy playing the Nicozians, and think they have a lot of potential. It just seems to me at present that perhaps some changes need to be made.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 03:15 pm: Edit

Steve,

The way that the Nicozian turn mode is calculated, they're not THAT bad. As they can go at most speed 16, they're right back (if towards the bottom) of the turn rate that other races have.

Mike

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 03:39 pm: Edit

I'm glad people are having fun with them. They were the first "empire" I ever wrote for SFB, and were designed to "Let's see what we can do."

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 03:53 pm: Edit

We have run them in 4-5 player free for alls with 750 BPV fleets 4-5 times, we play with Alpha, Omega, LMC, and on rare occasions Triangulum. We tend to be fast and bloody, finishing our games in 3-5 turns.

I do not remember what was on the board with them, but did not notice any particular problems. The Warp Field Distortion Mines can make Plasma races cautious, losing your R-Torps to a mine is attention getting. The Collapsium Armor/missiles give them decent durability, but their best chance is to close after someone has lost a lot of shields. Attaining this in a one on one match is likely difficult.

By Stephen Elliott Parrish (Steveparrish) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 04:21 pm: Edit

A. David: It may well be the case that they do better in squadrons or fleets than alone. Still, this is a problem.

Mike: True, but it still takes a lot of hexes to turn when they are going fast.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 04:26 pm: Edit

What is happening with the special sensors?

By Stephen Elliott Parrish (Steveparrish) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 05:48 pm: Edit

SP: We have been using the special sensors. They help, but they also have have draw backs--they can use a lot of energy and when you fire they are blinded.

Still, I am no expert in their use, and quite possibly they could be used to greater effect than we have been able to do.

They might be at least part of the answer.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 06:59 pm: Edit

In our games Special Sensors are used, at range they provide additional ECM and turn off drones. On the attack runs they loan ECM and ECCM,sometimes using the "buddy system" i.e. approach on the turn break, "Jose" fires on Impulse 32 while getting help from "Fred" and then on the Impulse 8, "Fred" fires while "Jose" helps. The attacking unit uses ECCM, and the supporting unit loans ECM.

Hrm, I ought to submit this as a Term Paper.

By Stephen Elliott Parrish (Steveparrish) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 08:36 pm: Edit

A. David: You should. Again though, this is a help only when playing with multiple ships.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 12:33 am: Edit

Term papers are not allowed for Nico's. I tried and got told to wait...

I thought (with my notoriously poor tactical skillz):

1) The ability to go to skip warp means you can speed WAY up with not so many of the issues as everyone else has with speed changing. So you could take the opportunity to close suddenly and more flexibly once the other guys shoot. IIRC you can turn the skip warp on and off in mid turn (I'm away from my rule books)

2) The ability to break tractors more or less at will should be huge. And the mind games with speed changes to delay that tractor snapping (per my term paper "the adjustable leash") should be interesting and decisive.

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis_777) on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 10:05 am: Edit

Mike,

Yes, the tractor thing is huge, but if the Nico, in a one-on-one, is that close to a high crunch-power race, those missiles had better have hit previously. So far, our playtesting is showing that is hard to do. The missiles are only marginally harder to destroy than heavy drones and how often do drones hit?