Archive through October 21, 2013

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development: Triangulum Module: Archive through October 21, 2013
By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - 11:31 am: Edit

So much for that idea...

Are there any "free" letters of the alphabet that might work instead?

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - 01:27 pm: Edit

Used Plasma letters that I can remember,
A Triaxians
B Gorn Base Buster Stellar Shadows 2

D Alpha
E Eneen LMC
F Alpha
G Alpha

L Alpha
M Alpha

P Originally the Peladine Used this one before they became official to designate a plasma-F that lacked the stasis box, I do not know if it has official status.

R Alpha
S Alpha

V ISC early years, Veltressai

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Francois, I noticed that you mentioned that you were trimming your list of empires. Are the Gorthang and Xxrix still included?

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - 01:50 pm: Edit

The Xxrix are still there, but the Gorthang are just an Imperium province that revolt and are returned by force in the Imperium 20 years later.

The old Gorthang ship and weapon will be used for another empire.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Cool, the Boron Gravitic Bomb was an interesting weapon.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - 03:14 pm: Edit

Oops, for the Atrean, the TPP is a twin-mount LPP not triple-mount.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - 03:16 pm: Edit

How about PL-X for the Variable plasma?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - 03:35 pm: Edit

One thing I picked up from in the E2 timeline was the idea of the Atreans having some sort of cybernetic thing going on.

If that is true, how about "Plasma-C", or "Cyborg plasma"?

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - 03:43 pm: Edit

The Wega'an also use the variable plasma so I'll go with PL-X.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Saturday, September 28, 2013 - 03:44 pm: Edit

Hi Everyone, I've been working on the Wega'an R section (not completely done) on the timeline (still adding more and modifying it all to fit the new history) and also made a workable SSD of the Unicorp CA (Boron Gravitic Bomb, Spear Missile and Pulse Phaser) and Khadij Mercenary CA (Tractor-Repulsor Bolt, PA Panel, Spear Missile and Disruption Device).

The Khadij Mercenaries background is based on them having found a derelict ship on their homeworld in -Y88 (I will let you try to find from which empire it came) ;).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, September 28, 2013 - 04:04 pm: Edit

If that derelict is from who I think it is, I would be very careful about that idea.

Pretty much no-one who is not of that empire has been able to understand, let alone reverse-engineer, most of their unique technology.

If the Khadij technologies are meant to be derived from that source, I'd be concerned that the concept may be dead on arrival.

(I'm not sure if knock-offs or imitation systems might have much leeway either. But then, it's not my call to make, so.)

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Saturday, October 05, 2013 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Gary maybe you should wait and see it before saying that.

They don't use any of the Andro tech, but the Khadij tech is all derived (is that how you say that?) from it.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Saturday, October 05, 2013 - 04:01 pm: Edit

I didn't have much time this week so I only did some work on the Sunfire Khanate CA (armed with Proton Pulse Emitter, Large Mass Driver, Spear Missile and deadly Firebird or Sunbird fighter).

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Friday, October 11, 2013 - 11:07 am: Edit

This week I've been working on the Demony Alliance (Armed with Proton Pulse Emitter, Transporter Cannon, Spear Missile, Trans-Dimensional Shield and can bring entities from another dimension that can be used as boarding parties, seeking weapon, shuttle or some weirder stuff).

Also I've done some work on the Corsairs of the KFZ (armed with Proton Pulse Emitter, Meson Torpedo and Spear Missile).

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, October 11, 2013 - 08:54 pm: Edit

Could be that the Khadij got some Old Kings technology, or their enemies (the name of which I forget right now). Or old Jindarian technology, they've been in space for thousands of years.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Hi Francois. We are about to playtest the Valorean CA (Unity). This ship will be fun to fly.

We had some questions about the Tri-Beam Amplifier and the Magnifier. Can you please clarify?

1) Does the TBA hit four times over 8 impulses (similar to a PPD)? Or does each TBA only fire once?

2) Assuming the TBA only fires once, your rules say that the second hit will be 1/2 on the magnified shield. So lets say that the #4 shield was hit first and magnified (by TBA #A). Within two impulses, a second TBA (TBA #B) is fired and hits the #3 shield. If the second TBA (TBA #B) does 12 points of damage, then 6 would be applied to the #4 (the magnified) shield, correct? And the remaining 6 points of damage would be applied to the #3 (facing) shield. Is this right?

3) Assuming the TBA hits four times over 8 impulses (once every other impulse), then is each hit (after the first hit) an automatic hit on the magnified shield?

4) Since the TBA is a two turn arming weapon and the Magnifier can be armed in a single turn, is it correct that you must pay the Magnifier cost on the second turn of arming, separate from the arming cost of the TBA?

5) Since there is more than one Magnifier on the Valorean CA, and more than one TBA, does it matter which Magnifier was used with which TBA? For example, if TBA #A hits and magnifies a shield, and then TBA #B fires, does TBA #B have to use its own Magnifier? Or does it gain the benefit of the magnified shield from the TBA #A hit?

6) Lets assume during a battle that both Magnifiers get destroyed or the Valorean CA does not have enough power to use them. Does the TBA just hit and score damage as per the chart? In other words, if a shield is not magnified, then how does the TBA function?

7) The Magnifier can be used with a PP instead of a TBA, correct? Since the cost is zero, can each Magnifier only be used with a single PP once per turn?

8) If you pay the cost for the Magnifier during Energy Allocation, and then don't actually use it, is the energy lost or can the Magnifier power be held or rolled over?

9) Do the magnified shield effects combine? For example, lets say a TBA (#A) hits and magnifies a shield on impulse 4. Later, TBA (#B) hits and magnifies the same magnified shield on Impulse 8. Does the magnification for that shield end on impule 12 or impulse 16? In other words, can the magnified time be extended by hitting with a second TBA (with its own Magnifier) before the first magnified time ends?

Sorry for the number of questions, but we want to make sure we are flying the Valorean CA correctly. Thank you in advance for your time in responding.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 04:54 pm: Edit

Hi Norman,

1) Each TBA can only fire once.

2) See EN111.32, if the second hit scores 12 points of damage, 6 will be scored on the #4 shield (since it was magnified) and the rest will be evenly distributed on all 5 shields.

3) You still have to roll the damage on the table but assuming you score some damage the second hit will score 1/2 damage on the magnified shield, the third will score 3/4 and the four will score 100% damage on the magnified shield. Notice that at this time only the DN has 4 TBA, only the unit who magnified the shield receive this benefit, every individual unit must magnify a shield.

4) Correct, the magnifier cannot be held but you can use it with a Pulse Phaser for no cost on your rearming turn if you want.

5) No only one is needed, the other one are normally used with Pulse Phaser.

6) If you didn't use a magnifier or if you fire all of your TBA together you use EN111.32, roll dice, add damage, 1/4 of damage goes to the facing shield and the rest is divided evenly on all 5 non-facing shield.

7) Correct one magnifier can only be used by one PP.

8) You lose the energy.

9) No, the effect is not cumulative and if you use a second magnifier on another shield you would just start the sequence from the start.

No problem hope you enjoy and can give me a report!

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 01:13 pm: Edit

Hi Francois. Thanks for the clarification. We ran a duel between the Valorean CA and a Fed CA. It was interesting. I will type up the playtest report and send it to you as soon as I have some extra time. I will also post a quick summary here.

While playing with the Valorean, some interesting discussion came up. So here are a few more questions, mostly considering the Alpha Sector:

1) How does the TBA affect Armor? A simple example would be to say an Alpha Sector ship with Armor has no shields. It is hit with a TBA. How does the TBA interact with only the Armor as defense?

2) How does the TBA affect Andromedan PA Panels? The only thing I could find was (EN111.53) which states that TBAs interact with other systems like Hellbores. It is the Magnification effect that makes the TBA different than the Hellbore. So can an Andromedan PA Panel be Magnified? How does this work when one or more TBAs hit a Magnified PA Panel?

3) It states in (GN104.33) that a Magnifier requires active fire control and a lock on to the target. So if a Romulan ship has two shields Magnified and it suddenly cloaks, is the Magnification effect broken? How does the Romulan Cloak interact with the Magnification effect?

4) Does the destruction of a Magnifier affect the Magnified effect? For example, lets say that a ship has two shields Magnified (meaning it has been hit and damaged already by TBAs). Now the ship returns fire on the Valorean and manages to destroy both Magnifiers. Does the 8 impulse Magnification effect end suddenly? Or does it continue even if both Magnifiers have been destroyed?

5) How does the Magnifier and TBA interact with the Helgardian Rotary Shields? Lets say a TBA and Magnifier hit a Helgardian ship and one Rotary Shield is protecting the facing shield. Does the Rotary Shield get Magnified or does the facing shield? How is the TBA damage distributed with the Rotary Shield there? What if both of the Helgardian's Rotary Shields are protecting the facing shield when the TBA and Magnifier hit?

Thanks and I hope to hear back from you soon.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Hi Norman,

1) See En111.324, unshielded target receive 50% damage from a TBA on the facing arc. Notice that the Magnifier would have no effect since GN104.31 stated that ''...the facing SHIELD (my emphasis) is magnified...''.

2) Like hellbore, half of the damage are scored on the FH arc, half on the RH. Since the Andro don't have shield the Magnifier would have no effect.

3) The Magnifier needs active fire control and a lock on to the target to be used. Once the shield is magnified the AFC and lock on aren't needed. The fact that the shield is magnified will only affect the damage procedure (normally) and have no other effect on the cloaking device.

4) No, once used the effect will survive its destruction.

5)Humm, good question, I think the facing shield should be magnified not the Rotary Shield.

Thanks good questions! I hope to see the playtest report soon.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 06:48 pm: Edit

Thanks for the answers, Francois. I was refreshing my memory by reviewing the playtest guidelines online when I noticed that ships must be tested at least twice, preferably more. So let me get my group to run a couple of more duels against the Valorean before I type up the official playtest report. Thanks!

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Good! Change tactics and maybe alternate the players?

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Yes, we will definitely alternate the players. I can't guarantee the change in tactics, because each player likes to fly his ship in his own unique way. So we will have to see how everything turns out.
By the way, what does a Valorean look like? Are they human? Animal-like? A strange alien? Or undefined at the moment?

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 02:48 pm: Edit

The Valoreans are a symbiotic life form, each individual needing both a host and a symbiote to qualify as a member of the Valorean people. The host is a very large (200 to 300 KG) humanoid mammalian, called a Plix. Plix have no neck, the head is attached directly to the shoulder. Their large eyes are widely spaced and to the sides of the head giving the Plix a 270 degrees field of vision. They are not much more intelligent then an earth dog. They are very strong and difficult to kill.

The symbiote is called a Threx and is in fact a plant. They are attached within days of being born to the back of the shoulders of a young Plix and will stay there until they died. It is impossible to detach a Threx from its host without killing him. If the host dies the symbiote will also die.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 09:54 pm: Edit

Hi Francois. Here is a summary of the first Valorean vs Fed duel. This battle will be included in my official playtest report, along with a couple of other battles. Please let me know what you think about the Notes/Suggestions/Conclusions section.

(both ships have all refits)

TURN 1 – Both ships are moving fast, long range sniping, no damage due to reinforcement. The Valorean CA uses 3 Mags with 3 MPPs. The Fed CA fires a drone.

TURN 2 – Fed CA fires another drone. Both CAs are closing, sideslipping as they get closer. At Range 5, one overloaded TBA with Mag is fired, along with 2 MPPs and Mags. The Fed CA #1 shield is magnified. The Fed CA shields are only scratched after this strike.
At Range 4, the Fed CA fires 4 overloaded photons and its PH-1s. The Valorean CA opts to return fire with its remaining TBAs and MPPs. The Fed CA blows a hole in the Valorean front shield and does massive internals to the Valorean CA. The Valorean return fire barely gets through the Fed CA shield and does some internals.
Fed CA takes 19 internals. The Fed CA #1 shield is gone. All the other shields on the Fed CA are at half strength.
Valorean CA takes 60 internals. The Valorean CA has no #1 shield. After the 60 internals are rolled, the Valorean has no TBAs, no Mags, no Phasers, no FH Neutronium Armor, and less than half of its power remaining.

TURN 3 AND ON – Valorean CA tries to limp away and turn other shields toward the Fed CA. The Fed CA continues to pound on the Valorean CA, crippling it even more. As the Valorean CA gets slower and slower, it is hit by Fed Drones, along with Photons. The Valorean CA cannot even disengage. It is destroyed completely.

Captain Bluto of the U.S.S. Knuckle: “Those Triangulum guys are real pushovers!” :)


1) We noticed the Valorean has a better turn mode than the Fed CA. Was this intentional?

2) It appears that 3 overloaded TBAs with Magnifiers are no match for 4 overloaded photons at close range (range 4-5). One overloaded TBA was fired from Range 5, resulting in a hit and a magnified shield. On the next impulse, before two impulses could pass to take advantage of the magnification effect, the Fed closed to Range 4 and fired 4 overloaded photons. The Valorean was forced to return fire with two overloaded TBAs. Since two impulses had not passed since the first TBA hit, the two overloaded TBAs did not gain the advantage of the magnification effect. The overloaded TBAs broke through the Feds #1 shield and did a few internals. They also reduced all of the Feds other shields marginally. The Feds overloaded photons have a good chance to hit at Range 4 and do 16 points each. The #1 shield on the Valorean was easily collapsed and the Valorean took massive internals from the overloaded photons alone. When you add the PH-1s on the Fed, even more internals were scored. So it appears that 3 overloaded TBAs with Magnifiers are not the equivalent of 4 overloaded photons at range 4-5.

3) After realizing #2 above, the question came up as to why the Valorean CA only has 3 TBAs? Is this to balance it against other Triangulum CAs? Perhaps it should have 4 TBAs to match the Fed’s 4 photons?

4) Powering the Mags for use with the TBAs caused a little hesitation. Since the magnification effect cannot be extended or doubled, it became a concern about whether to waste 2 points of energy on a second Magnifier. If the first TBA and Magnifier hit, the target ship was considered magnified already, so firing with a second TBA with Magnifier did nothing else. This means the 2 points for the second Magnifier was wasted. But if the Valorean misses with the first TBA and Magnifier, then it will need the second Magnifier to try again with a second shot. So in this case, the extra 2 points for second Magnifier was useful. Powering all three Mags for all three TBAs seemed unnecessary, based on hit probabilities at that range.

5) Neutronium Armor works well, but only if it is against minimal internals. The Neutronium Armor doesn’t really matter when you are dealing with massive internals. They get destroyed along with everything else. One thing that came up was the two hemispheres for the Neutronium Armor. The Fed’s alpha strike destroyed the FH Neutronium Armor and most of the key systems. But the RH Neutronium Armor was untouched. Later, the RH Neutronium Armor was marked off, because the Valorean CA suffered more internals from the RH. This worked fine in game sense, because any key system hit on the DAC was just marked off the Neutronium Armor instead. But from a reality point of view, what exactly is the RH Neutronium Armor protecting at this point? The key systems had already been destroyed by the previous alpha strike. So the RH Neutronium Armor is just sitting there, protecting the Bridge, when the Bridge itself has already been destroyed? It didn’t make sense to us, concept-wise. It also brought up the idea that, perhaps, the Neutronium Armor should just be 360 degrees?

6) Since the Valorean cannot withstand a close range alpha strike, it seems like the successful Valorean must maintain distance and fight a long range battle. This makes sense, except for #8 and # 11 below, which seem to contradict this strategy.

7) MPPs seem to be the equivalent of PH-1s. At some ranges, they are better.

8) TBA’s have a strange maximum effectiveness range. They are most powerful at range 2-5, ok at range 6-8, and terrible at range 0-1. So of course the Valorean Captain is going to want to fire the TBAs from ranges 2-8. But firing at this range is just asking for an overloaded (possibly alpha) strike from an Alpha Sector weapon. So if the Valorean is supposed to stay away and fight a long range battle, then why are the TBAs best results at close range (meaning range 8 or less)?

9) It was already stated that a miss with a TBA and Magnifier, wastes the 2 points used to power the Magnifier. What if the Magnifier was powered and fired separately from the TBA? Perhaps it should not be combined in its usage? If a Magnifier was required (or allowed) to hit before any TBAs were even fired, then it might help the Valorean Captain to know when to close and use the TBAs. What do you think? Can the Magnifier work on its own, separate from the TBA?

10) The MPPs and LPPs on the Valorean CA were more than sufficient to handle the drones from the Fed CA. Until they were destroyed, at least.

11) We noticed that all the weapons on the Valorean CA fire forward. The only weapons that fire to its rear are two LPPs (360). This makes it difficult for the Valorean to fight a middle to long range battle. It will have to always face forward to fire at its opponent. If the Valorean has to circle and constantly turn, then perhaps some of its weapons (not necessarily the TBAs) should be able to fire to the rear? And more weapons should be able to fire to the sides?

12) The Fed CA BPV might be a starting reference point for trying to determine how much the Valorean CA BPV should be. Of course, it will take more battles to see if the Valorean CA can win. If it cannot, then its BPV should be less than 125.

13) Was it your original intent as the designer to make the Triangulum ships not be a match for the Alpha Sector ships? If you look at an Omega CA, you can see that it would not be able to stand up to an Alpha Sector CA. Perhaps you wanted Triangulum to be the same? If Triangulum is supposed to be equivalent to the Alpha Sector, then some changes are definitely needed for the Valorean CA.

14) Since the TBA functions similar to a Hellbore, we did some comparisons to the Hellbore. The Hellbore attacks the weakest shield. The TBA attacks the magnified shield. Multiple Hellbores can be fired at the same time for maximum effectiveness. For maximum magnification effect with the TBA, you must wait two impulses between shots. For the Hellbore, there will almost always be a weakest shield to target. For the TBA, it may or may not have the magnification effect to use. In addition, the magnification effect only lasts for 8 impulses, making the advantage temporary.

15) The Hellbore has a direct-fire mode. Perhaps the TBA should also have some kind of way to fire directly? This might help the Valorean deal with alpha strikes.

16) For some reason, we sense the original idea behind your tri-beam amplifier was for multiple tri-beams to be more powerful than a single tri-beam. This could explain why you have a dual-beam weapon and 4 TBAs on the dreadnought. But this idea is not really achieved because of the need to wait 2 impulses between strikes. Maybe the TBA should be more powerful when all three TBAs are fired at once? Perhaps, they could do more damage than normal (when fired in unison) or perhaps they could really focus on the magnified shield when fired together. If you add a direct fire mode, then maybe three combined TBAs are more powerful than a single TBA when fired in direct-fire mode? What do you think?

17) The Mag use with the MPP leads to interesting range tactics. Since the chart is moved to the left when using a Mag with a MPP, the player can really use the range to his advantage. For example, the MPP has a range chart for 4-6 and a range chart for 7-10. If a MPP fires with a Mag, you use the chart to the left. So the Valorean Captain could actually fire a MPP (with Mag) from range 10, and do the damage for the 4-6 chart. Another example might be the range charts for 16-25 and 26-50. You could fire a MPP (with Mag) from range 50 and use the hit chart for range 16-25. Was this intentional? Also, having only 3 Mags to work with on the Valorean CA limits this ability. If the Valorean uses all 3 Mags with TBAs, then it has no advantage to use with the MPPs. So it really can only use the Mags with the MPPs on the first turn of TBA arming. Maybe the Valorean CA should have more Mags so it can fight a better long distance battle? What do you think?

18) It became clear very quickly that the Valorean CA shields were much weaker than the Fed CA shields. Was this intentional? The Valorean CA only has a 20 point #1 shield compared to the 30 point #1 shield on the Fed CA. Perhaps the shields need to be increased on the Valorean to make it more of a match for the Alpha Sector?

19) Having to wait two impulses between shots (to gain the advantage of the magnification effect) with the TBA is a real disadvantage. It is very easy for an opponent to strike the Valorean in-between those impulses with a powerful strike. Maybe there is a way to change this or compromise on its limitations? If the Valorean succeeds in magnifying a shield, it should gain some kind of benefit, regardless of impulse. Maybe the TBA should “pulse” and shoot four times over 8 impulses? Maybe a single TBA can fire more than once in a turn? I am not really sure how this issue can be corrected.

20) After comparing the Valoreans to the Hydrans, we noticed that the Hydrans also have Fusions, Gatlings, and Fighters. I believe this helps them use their Hellbores effectively. But what does the Valorean have? Only its TBAs and Mags. Perhaps the Valoreans need a secondary weapon? Something powerful at close range to prevent enemy alpha strikes. It should be something that compliments the TBA and the tactics required to make the TBA work. What do you think?

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 08:42 am: Edit

Hi Norman,

The Valorean CA is not made to overrun, especially not a Fed CA, but to dance with him.

1) See above.

2) a TBA does (on average with no overload) 14 points of damage at range 5 (20 with overload) but it also does 6.67 point of damage at range 16. Against a Fed CA I would go for a range 16 attack before going in.

3)4 overload photon (32 points of energy):
range 1: 53,33
range 5: 32
range 8: 32
4 STD range 16: 5,33

3 overload TBA ( 27 points of energy):
range 1: 14
range 5: 60
range 8: 40
3 STD range 16: 20

Of course the TBA damage is split on more then one shield.

4) I was hesitant to make the magnifier free to use with the TBA but maybe reduce the price to 1 point of energy?

5) That would be a major change to the ships, let's wait and see. I understand what you are saying about protecting destroyed system but to make an analogy, if you pierce the side armor of a tank and kill all people inside you would still have undamaged armor on all other side, would you say it was useless to put it there in the first place?

6) In the case of a Fed CA yes, dance with him.

7) The MPP damage bracket are different then PH-1 and they are much less affected by ECM.

8) Against a Disruptor armed ship I would go for rage 5 to 8 attack but against a photon armed one I would go for range 16.

9) It could be done that way or reduce the Magnifier price to 1 or 0.

10) and 11) Maybe modify the firing arc.

12) In our battle the Val CA could hold its own again the Fed CA but at longer range.

13) Of course some adjustment will be needed based on playtesting but you cannot based that on only one go.

14) 4 overload hellbore (36 points of energy):
range 1: 116,67
range 5: 54,88
range 8: 54,88
4 STD range 16: 13,33

I admit the Hellbore has many advantage against the TBA except they cost more to arm.

15) This could be an option.

16) Humm, the DN has 4 TBA and no DBA.

The idea for the TBA (and many other ideas in the Triangulum galaxy) is to force you to fight differently then with an Alpha ship. Maybe the effect of the magnification could be extended to 16 impulses (instead of 8) this could give you more time to set up your different strike.

17) I think we will need to put a maximum range on the magnifier (maybe range 25). Also I'm really thinking of having the Magnifier used independently of the TBA, first you "paint" the target (this should probably have a maximum range of 25) and then this shield is magnified for the TBA. This way you would only need one magnifier for your TBA and the other one would be available for the MPP, what do you think?

18) Here is the balancing act, you get less shield but you get Neutronium armor, too many shield and they would be way too resistant to damage compared to Alpha ship. The "standard" shield for a Triangulum CA is 24 in the front, we could adjust the Val CA to that level.

19) Maybe you should get a -1 on your die roll with the TBA if the target has a shield magnified? What do you think?

20) not sure right now.

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