SPP...agreed. It just seems more possible is all that a WW can be (stress can be) a much greater tactical nuisance to the Nicos if they hope to maximize the intent of the anti- shield missiles.

By Stephen Parrish (Steveparrish) on Sunday, July 14, 2013 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Well, the Nicos lost another battle, though they did put up a fight. This time is was a Nico Ca versus an Andromedan Heavy Mamba. The Mamba closed to 8 hexes, and with the CA turning away fired its TRHs and some of its phasers on shield #1, scoring a few internals. the Nicos fired explosive missiles. The Mamba killed one, but let the rest hit, deeming them to weak to worry about.

Later the Mamba hit shield 5 from about the same range, causing more internals. Then, the Nicos managed to get the Mamba 3 hexes away, firing 8 phaser 3s and 3 SAS (1 having been destroyed.) It did not get through the PAs. The Mamba then blew the Nico apart.

Actually, both the front and rear PAs were almost full. If the other SA had not been destroyed, it would have scored internals.

The new rule of letting the missiles go to non-skip warp when one hex away from the target helped, and we would definitely recommend keeping it.

However, the problem still remains that the Nicos have too little direct fire power at any real distance. Firing at 8 hexes with 3 TRH and 9 phaser 1s, the Andro on average will hit with about 50 points of damage, which means about 20 will be internal. The Nico CA, with tripled damage on the SAs and firing 4 phaser 2s, will also hit with about 50 points also. If all four missiles hit, that is another 32 points. This will mean that there are only a couple internals. With the missiles hitting, they are only about 5/8s of the way through the front PAs. One thing interesting was that because the Andromedan has PAs instead of shields, the Nicos were able to, as I said, triple their damage. Alas, the Mambas front PAs are so thick, about three times thicker than the average CA shield, they still couldn't get through. Also, the Mamba is fast and maneuverable, and has a lot of energy, making it hard to hit when advantageous.

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis) on Sunday, July 14, 2013 - 09:54 pm: Edit

One ace the Nicos have against an all direct-fire race is the special sensors. I think a good rule of thumb is to always try and spend some EW to gain a shift. This is easier said than done but may be even more critical against a ship with a DisDev.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, July 15, 2013 - 02:48 am: Edit

Don't the Andros have Phaser TWOs? The difference between Ph 1 and 2 is significant at the ranges cited...

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, July 15, 2013 - 07:18 am: Edit

Michael;
They mention the Heavy Mamba from C3A, it has 9 ph-2s, upgradeable too ph-1s, 3 TRLs, upgradeable too TRHs, 8 forward PA Panels, 27 warp and a 3/4 movement rate, 164 BPV

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis) on Monday, July 15, 2013 - 10:05 pm: Edit

It has 36 warp.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, July 15, 2013 - 11:42 pm: Edit

Dsennis; my mistake, you are correct.

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis) on Thursday, July 18, 2013 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Dave...np. But, that was also another reason I thought the Hvy Mamba may be under BPV. That ship, even without the DisDev has few weak spots aside from size. Point-for-point it may be a top tier ship. I think a strong limiter may be so few options against drones, however. Against any ship with few seeking weapons it can practically charge to point blank, deal over 100 points of damage while absorbing once almost any direct fire alpha strike. Kinda nice!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, November 03, 2013 - 08:10 am: Edit

So walking into this discussion kind of late, but the Skip Warp Missiles. It seems like there is general concern that they are too difficult to actually hit anything with due to the skip movement (i.e. if they are close to someone, the target can just make sure that the "skip" movement causes the missile to go over them and then evade them). I saw the suggestion that missiles be given the ability to ignore the skip move if moving regularly would cause the missile to impact (which seems a reasonable idea). What about letting them HET? What is the rationale behind them not being able to HET in the first place? That it makes it too easy to use them to hit non facing shields?

By Stephen Parrish (Steveparrish) on Monday, November 04, 2013 - 10:30 am: Edit

Peter,

Dennis and I were playing the Nicozians. We played about 10 games, but haven't used them for a few months. One reason being that they lost every game. We will probalby play them again, but unless a change is made, they are not as good as their BPV would indicate.

SPP made the suggestion the the missles be able to "skip" the skip movement when doing so would enable them to hit the target. We only played one game with this rule change. It did help, and I would recommend keeping this rule, but it did not completely fix them.

The problem arises in duels, especially with a drone and disrupter or photon race. If one fires the skip missiles in mass, they are too easy to take out with TBs. Firing them in sequence is better, and you may get a few hits, but usually on different shields, on the wrong side of the ship. The basic problem is the lack of directy medium or long distance fire power. That the phaser Ps can fire as 2 phaser 3s is good, and helps with defense. But having only 4 phaser 2s in any one direction (with the CA, their best ship) is pretty pathetic. The Space Auger is good against unshielded targets, but lousy against shields. So the Nicozians depend on missiles to knock the shields down. But hitting with the missiles is not much easier, even with the rule change, than hitting with drones. As Dennis said somewhere, if disruptors or photons were only effective after drones had knocked down a shield, there wouldn't be many Klingon or Fed victories.

Your suggestion about HETs may be good, but the real problem with the Nicozians is not the missiles but the lack of direct fire power at anything other than close range.

I wish someone else was playtesting them, to see if they were getting the same results we were, or if they could figure out another tactic that would work. At present, I just don't see them as worth their BPVs.

However, even if one lowered their BPVs there would still be a problem. That is, they would be boring because they would be dependent on one tactic--knock down a shield and then use the Space Augers. I think they should be more dangerous and interesting than that.

Any ideas, anyone?

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 09:00 pm: Edit

We ran a game wherein they did reasonably well. Now that said, it was a first contact scenario and I'm pretty sure half the people playing had never heard that their WERE Nics let alone knew what they could do. As the facts started coming to life (we abstracted the tact intel/lab rules some), people got progressively less scared.

They're okay, not great. The damage hurts when it hits and they take damage well, to a point. Campaign worthy? No, but they're not intended to be. Heck, most of the race you'll ever see is insane.

By Stephen Parrish (Steveparrish) on Friday, November 08, 2013 - 10:30 am: Edit

Thanks for the response. What race were they fighting and what ships were involved? How did you hit with enough anti-shield missiles?

I would like to know, to see if there are different tactics than the ones that we have been using, tactics that will allow the Nicos to do better.

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, November 08, 2013 - 12:35 pm: Edit

So, their prompt was that it was a tact intel battle against a completely unknown foe. They brought IIRC (it was about a year ago), 3 Fed DD and a GSC vs. my 3 Nic CA.

Got the drones out, the first one (maybe two) hit, after they got the hang of it and realized what they could do, they were toast.

By Stephen Parrish (Steveparrish) on Friday, November 08, 2013 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Thanks. Do you mean the Nico's drones (missiles) or the Fed's? Were the Nicos toast, or the Feds?

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you are saying.

BTW, we have always thought that the Nicos do better in squadron or fleet actions. It is in a single ship duel that they are at their weakest.

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, November 08, 2013 - 01:19 pm: Edit

I have to say, the ability to "cycle" through them with one acting as scout to the others was pretty powerful.

By Stephen Parrish (Steveparrish) on Friday, November 08, 2013 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Yes, having one ship available to act as a scout to aid the others can be powerful in a squadron or fleet action. But it is unavailable in a duel.

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, November 08, 2013 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Well, it's good till you fire. Problem is once you have that's toast and it's unlikely that you'll have the juice to scoot in, shoot with an edge, and then scoot back out again and still fire.

The intrinsic downside of the skip-warp is that while their ships can move as fast or faster than normal ships due to the skip warp, reducing your speed to power other things is half as effective as it is for your typical joe.

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis) on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 12:41 am: Edit

Michael, can you provide more details of the Fed clash? Were you saying the Nicos lost that one? We found that at least one-on-one the Feds make short work of them.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 05:05 pm: Edit

As has been noted. There is not enough data to consider additional changes. (Going up against a Module C3A ship is not a good place to make the case, seriously.) Duels and squadron actions against known quantities is better. A Nicozian CA is 156 BPV (assuming all skip warp missile frames are Speed 10), is it really that outmatched against a Federation CAR+a with type-IF drones in the drone rack (difference of seven BPV in the Nicozian's favor)? Or against a D7K with the UIM refit and type-IF drones in its drone racks (difference of four BPV in the Nicozian's favor)? Or a Kzinti BC with type-IF drones in its drone racks (again a difference of four BPV in the Nicozian's favor)? Or a Gorn BC (difference of four BPV in the Gorn's favor although upgrading some of the Nicozian skip warp frames to Speed 20 could get an equal point value, but you could also add the Sabot refit to the Gorn and use some more Speed 20 frames on the Nicozian to have an even BPV fight)? Those are all ships in Basic Set that have been around a long time (although the sabot refit has not been around as long).

There is not enough data (although I thank both Stephen Parrish and Dennis Surdu for their inputs) to make any large scale adjustments, and not enough to justify (beyond as noted the thing about allowing a skip warp missile to use normal movement to avoid jumping over a target) small scale changes.

And, again, note that tactics matter. I agree with the note that if you only use anti-shield warheads a single wild weasel is impervious too and can deal with an unlimited number of them and yawn, but a single explosive warhead included in the swarm is enough to destroy that weasel and does not really harm the overall value of the swarm if it hits the real target. (Not pointing fingers or anything here, just noting that tactics matter and to me the wild weasel can defeat an infinite number of anti-shield skip-warp missiles is just not that big an issue because there is what seems to me to be an easy tactical solution.

By Stephen Parrish (Steveparrish) on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 05:55 pm: Edit

SPP: Thanks for your input. I do think that the Nicos need much more playtesting. So far, it has been Dennis and me, and we can only play about 3 hours a month on the average. Further, our playing hasn't been systematic. We have seen a problem in our games with them. Which is why I wish more people were testing it. That is one reason that I have been posting: to get more players interested and trying different ideas and tactics. If everyone who has made a suggestion would try it out, I think that progress could be made.

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis) on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Yes, performing a true play test with a design of experiments of sorts would take up too much of our limited playing time to be enjoyable. Other players' games input would be handy. That said, I think extrapolating from the few games we tried will reveal that some minor changes are indeed needed. I think a high crunch race does indeed give the Nicos some special challenges since they need to take the sabre dance almost to extreme levels.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 12:28 am: Edit

Hello all. We have been playtesting Triangulum and having a lot of fun. You can see our detailed reports under the Triangulum thread.

Our group meets regularly. We have players who just learned SFB and a few long time veterans of SFB since it was a pocket game. We primarily focus on Duels, but sometimes we run a fleet battle or unusual scenario.

Although we love the Triangulum ships, we need a change of pace from time to time. So, in-between our regular Triangulum playtest battles, we will be playtesting the Nicozians, the Peladine, and the Borak.

Two people in our group (myself included) have loved the Nicozians since their first appearance in Star Fleet Times. We will post battle summaries here (for people to comment on or to ask questions) and then send the offical playtest reports to ADB.

By Stephen Parrish (Steveparrish) on Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Norman: that is good. I will be looking forward to seeing your reports to see if you get the same results we did, and if not, what you did differently.

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Dennis, I did a full writeup back when it happened, right after the Playtest pack was released. You can check it out in the history. Playing with (let call it enhanced Tact. Intel.) was slow-going and we didn't get particularly far into the battle.

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis) on Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Thanks Michael.....still useful I am sure.