Well i did not even think of that. Every Kzin i play against always have double drone

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, November 29, 2013 - 09:48 pm: Edit

The Kzinti CA is NOT a "modern" ship.

Pretty much a "Middle Years" combatant...

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 10:15 am: Edit

True Michael, that's why I asked Norman to use the Kzinti BC next time to test the ships. The thing is that obviously the Triangulum Galaxy timeline cannot be a copy of the Alpha Quadrant timeline so the progression of the ships cannot match. So the idea is to have the heavy cruiser of the start of the general war match up with the fully refitted heavy cruiser of the Triangulum galaxy. As for other period well not everything will fit right.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 10:42 am: Edit

Hi Francois. Just wanted to add a note about what we discussed.

If the Kzinti CA lost a second Duel against the Worlds of Unions CA, then the third Duel would use the Kzinti BC. This would show that the Kzinti CA was clearly not a match for the Worlds of Unions CA.

If the Kzinti CA won the second Duel against the Worlds of Unions CA, then the third Duel would again use the Kzinti CA. Since the second Playtest Duel against the Worlds of Unions CA did indeed result in the Worlds of Unions CA losing, we are proceeding with the third Duel using the Kzinti CA (not the BC).

So the statement of "using the Kzinti BC next time" means after the three Playtest Duels with the Kzinti CA are completed.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Yes, exactly.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 02:50 am: Edit

Hi Francois. Here is a summary of the third Worlds of Union vs Kzinti Duel. This battle will be included in my official playtest report, along with a couple of other battles.

During the first couple of turns, the Kzinti CA performed a Battle Run against the approaching Worlds of Union CA. The Kzinti CA launched a Wave of Drones and then fired Disruptors and Phasers. After destroying the Drones, the Worlds of Unions CA gave chase.

During Turn 3, the Worlds of Unions CA launched two 3-Turn Hellfire Torpedoes. The Kzinti CA, after launching more Drones and firing Disruptors, turned and moved away as quickly as it could. The two Hellfire Torpedoes traveled a long distance before the Kzinti CA fired at them with Phasers. Both Hellfire Torpedoes were destroyed.

Turn 4 was a Critical Turn in the Duel because both ships engaged at Close Range. Not only did the Kzinti CA launch another Wave of Drones, but it also launched a Scatterpack Shuttle, resulting in another 6 Drones moving toward the Worlds of Unions CA. This was only possible because the Drones were ATG (Active Terminal Guidance) and the Range was less than 8.

The Worlds of Unions CA destroyed the first Wave of Drones and then countered the Scatterpack Drones by using Emergency Deceleration and launching a Wild Weasel. The ploy worked, but the Kzinti CA was able to score some Internals while the Worlds of Unions CA was distracted by all the Drones.

Turn 5 was Brutal, with both ships very close to each other and firing everything they have. The Worlds of Unions CA maneuvered to keep it's Down Shield away from the Kzinti CA. Both ships scored Internals on the other. By the end of Turn 5, the Worlds of Unions CA had two Down Shields and no RH Neutronium Armor.

Turns 6 and 7 were even more Fierce. Both ships were in Knife Fighting Range and they both refused to back down. Both ships circled, turned, and twisted to keep their Down Shields away from their opponent. Whenever an opportunity presented itself, shots were fired through Down Shields causing Internals. Both ships fired over and over and took Internals over and over.

By the end of Turn 7, the Worlds of Unions CA was missing 4 Shields and both its FH and RH Neutronium Armor was gone. The Kzinti CA was missing 3 Shields. Both ships had suffered Internals, but it was clear that the Worlds of Unions CA was in much worse shape.

After Turn 7, the Kzinti CA had gained speed and distance from the Worlds of Unions CA. The Worlds of Unions CA was facing away from the Kzinti CA and it was difficult to turn around because the Worlds of Unions CA was missing 4 Shields (both sides: 2, 3, 5, 6). But the Worlds of Unions CA had to turn around, because it had to use its remaining Hellfire Torpedoes against the Kzinti CA.

In the end, it was an easy matter for the Kzinti CA to maintain its distance and fire Disruptors and Phasers from afar through the Down Shields of the Worlds of Unions CA. The Worlds of Unions CA was picked apart and eventually Destroyed.

Please see the Notes/Suggestions/Conclusions section at the bottom.


WORLDS OF UNION CA DRAGON (with Y63, Y120, Y154 REFITS) vs KZINTI CA (WITH SPEED 20, ACTIVE TERMINAL GUIDANCE (ATG) DRONES/NOT THE STRIKE CRUISER OR BATTLECRUISER) DUEL #3:

* NOTE THAT, PER FRANCOIS, THIS PLAYTEST DUEL USES THE LATEST HELLFIRE TORPEDO RULES. WE DID NOT USE THE HELLFIRE TORPEDO RULES FROM MODULE E2 OR FROM THE E2 ERRATA FROM DECEMBER 2011. WE ARE ALSO USING THE LATEST SSD FROM FRANCOIS, NOT THE SSD FROM MODULE E2 *


TURN 1

The Kzinti CA is moving fast. The Worlds of Unions CA is moving slow.

Kzinti launches 4 Drones, Speed 20.

No other shots are fired this turn.

TURN 2

Both ships are approaching each other. They are doing a battle run at an oblique angle. The two ships are 14 Hexes apart.

4 Drones (Speed 20) are homing in on the Worlds of Unions CA. The 4 Drones are 12 Hexes away from the Worlds of Unions CA.

The Worlds of Unions CA is moving at medium speed. The Kzinti CA is moving fast.

Kzinti launches 2 Drones, Speed 20.

Kzinti fires 2 standard Disruptors at Range 14. After subtracting reinforcement, 2 points of damage are marked off Shield #6.

Kzinti fires 3 PH-1s at Range 14. 4 points of damage are marked off Shield #6.

Worlds of Unions fires 2 SPPs and 2 LPPs at Range 1 at 4 Drones. All 4 Drones are destroyed.

Worlds of Unions fires 2 EPPs at Range 2 at 2 Drones. Both Drones are destroyed.

At this point in the Duel, the Worlds of Unions CA has taken 6 points of damage to Shield #6.

TURN 3

The Worlds of Unions CA is chasing the Kzinti CA. The Kzinti CA has just finished making a wide turn and is now facing the Worlds of Unions CA. They are 12 Hexes apart.

The Worlds of Unions CA is moving at medium speed. The Kzinti CA is moving fast.

Kzinti launches 4 Drones, Speed 20.

Kzinti fires 2 standard Disruptors at Range 12. After subtracting reinforcement, 2 points of damage are marked off Shield #6.

Kzinti fires 3 PH-1s at Range 12. 4 points of damage are marked off Shield #6.

Worlds of Unions launches 2 Hellfire Torpedoes. They are 3 Turn, Speed 40 (Level 2), ROL 2 (Level 1), LTF 2 (Level 1).

Worlds of Unions fires 2 SPPs, 2 LPPs, and 1 EPP at Range 1 at 4 Drones. All 4 Drones are destroyed.

The Kzinti CA is running away from the Hellfire Torpedoes.

Kzinti fires 8 PH-3s at Range 2 at the Hellfire Torpedoes. Both Hellfire Torpedoes, after moving a far distance trying to catch the Kzinti CA, are destroyed by the Phaser Fire.

Worlds of Unions fires 3 EPPs at Range 11. 7 points of damage are marked off Shield #3.

At this point in the Duel, the Worlds of Unions CA has taken 12 points of damage to Shield #6.

The Kzinti CA has taken 7 points of damage to Shield #3.

TURN 4

The Kzinti CA is turning around. The Kzinti's Right Side is facing the Worlds of Unions CA. The Worlds of Unions CA is facing towards the Kzinti CA. They are 6 Hexes apart.

The Worlds of Unions CA is moving at medium speed. The Kzinti CA is moving at medium speed.

Worlds of Unions CA launches 2 Hellfire Torpedoes. They are 1 Turn, Speed 32 (Level 1), LTF 3 (Level 2), ROL 1 (Level 1).

Kzinti launches 4 Drones, Speed 20, ATG (Active Terminal Guidance). The Drones are 4 Hexes away from the Worlds of Unions CA.

Kzinti fires 4 overloaded Disruptors at Range 4. 16 points of damage are marked off Shield #2.

Kzinti fires 4 PH-3s at Range 1 at one Hellfire Torpedoes. The Warhead Strength of one Hellfire Torpedo is reduced by 5.

2 Hellfire Torpedoes strike the Kzinti CA. 11 points of damage are marked off Shield #1.

Kzinti launches a Scatterpack.

Scatterpack launches 6 Drones, Speed 20, ATG (Active Terminal Guidance). The 6 Drones are 6 Hexes away from the Worlds of Unions CA.

Worlds of Unions fires 1 SPP, 2 LPP, and 1 EPP at Range 1 at 4 Drones. All 4 Drones are destroyed.

Worlds of Unions fires 3 EPPs at Range 3. 11 points of damage are marked off Shield #1.

Worlds of Unions CA performs Emergency Deceleration.

Worlds of Unions CA launches a Wild Weasel.

6 Drones are now locked onto the Wild Weasel.

6 Drones destroy the Wild Weasel.

Kzinti fires 3 PH-1s at Range 1. 15 points of damage are marked off Shield #3.

Kzinti fires 4 PH-3s at Range 1. 16 points of damage are applied to Shield #3. Shield #3 Collapses. The Worlds of Unions CA takes 11 Internals.

Worlds of Unions loses 4 RH Neutronium Armor.

Worlds of Unions CA uses Reserve Power to perform Tactical Maneuvers.

Worlds of Unions CA uses Reserve Power to perform Tactical Maneuvers.

Worlds of Unions CA uses Reserve Power to perform Tactical Maneuvers.

At this point in the Duel, the Worlds of Unions CA has no Shield #3. The Worlds of Unions CA has taken 12 points of damage to Shield #6, 16 points of damage to Shield #2, and 4 points of damage to its RH Neutronium Armor.

The Kzinti CA has taken 22 points of damage to Shield #1 and 7 points of damage to Shield #3.

TURN 5

Both ships are close to each other. The Kzinti's Left Side is facing the Worlds of Unions CA. The Worlds of Unions CA is trying to keep its down #3 Shield away from the Kzinti CA. They are 2 Hexes apart.

The Worlds of Unions CA is moving slow. The Kzinti CA is moving slow.

The Kzinti CA is reloading 2 Drone Racks.

Worlds of Unions launches 2 Hellfire Torpedoes. They are 1 Turn, Speed 32 (Level 1), LTF 3 (Level 2), ROL 1 (Level 1).

2 Hellfire Torpedoes strike the Kzinti CA. 20 points of damage are marked off Shield #6.

The Kzinti CA performs a High Energy Turn. There is No Breakdown.

Kzinti launches 2 Drones, Speed 20.

Worlds of Unions fires 3 LPPs at 2 Drones at Range 1. Both Drones are destroyed.

Kzinti fires 2 overloaded Disruptors at Range 1. 10 points of damage are marked off Shield #5.

Kzinti fires 3 PH-1s and 4 PH-3s at Range 1. 27 points of damage are applied to Shield #5. Shield #5 Collapses. The Worlds of Unions CA takes 17 Internals.

The Worlds of Unions CA loses 3 RH Neutronium Armor, 1 Box of Hellfire Torpedo, 3 LPPs, 2 Impulse, and 2 APR.

Worlds of Unions fires 1 SPP and 2 EPPs at Range 1. 17 points of damage are applied to Shield #6. Shield #6 Collapses. The Kzinti CA takes 15 Internals.

The Kzinti CA loses 2 Warp, 1 Drone, 1 Battery, and 1 PH-3.

Worlds of Unions fires 2 EPPs at Range 9. 3 points of damage are marked off Shield #4.

At this point in the Duel, the Kzinti CA has no Shield #6. The Kzinti CA has taken 22 points of damage to Shield #1 and 7 points of damage to Shield #3.

The Kzinti CA has lost 2 Warp Engines, 1 Drone, 1 Battery, and 1 PH-3.

The Worlds of Unions CA has no Shield #5 and no Shield #3. The Worlds of Unions CA has taken 12 points of damage to Shield #6 and 16 points of damage to Shield #2.

The Worlds of Unions CA has no RH Neutronium Armor. The Worlds of Unions CA has lost 2 Impulse, 1 Warp Engine, 3 LPPs, 2 APR, and 1 Box of Hellfire Torpedo.

TURN 6

Both ships are circling to face each other. The Worlds of Unions CA is facing Direction A. The Kzinti CA is facing Direction D. They are 10 Hexes apart.

The Worlds of Unions CA is moving at medium speed. The Kzinti CA is moving at medium speed.

Kzinti launches 2 Drones, Speed 20.

Kzinti fires 2 overloaded Disruptors at Range 4. 8 points of damage are marked off Shield #2. Shield #2 Collapses. No Internals are scored.

Kzinti fires 3 PH-1s at Range 4 through the Down Shield #2. The Worlds of Unions CA takes 14 Internals.

The Worlds of Unions loses 8 FH Neutronium Armor, 2 Impulse, 3 Batteries, and 1 APR.

Worlds of Unions launches 2 Hellfire Torpedoes. They are 1 Turn, Speed 32 (Level 1), LTF 3 (Level 2), ROL 1 (Level 1).

Worlds of Unions fires 3 EPPs and 1 SPP at Range 3. 20 points of damage are applied to Shield #3. Shield #3 Collapses. The Kzinti CA takes 5 Internals.

The Kzinti CA loses 2 Impulse, 1 Bridge, and 1 Battery.

Worlds of Unions fires 1 SPP and 1 EPP at 2 Drones. They are both Destroyed.

Kzinti fires 7 PH-3s at Range 1 at one Hellfire Torpedo. The Warhead Strength is reduced by 8

2 Hellfire Torpedoes strike the Kzinti CA. The Kzinti CA marks 8 points of damage off Shield #4.

Both ships are maneuvering to keep their Down Shields away from the other ship.

At this point in the Duel, the Kzinti CA has no Shield #6 and no Shield #3. The Kzinti CA has taken 22 points of damage to Shield #1 and 11 points of damage to Shield #4.

The Kzinti CA has lost 1 Bridge, 2 Batteries, 2 Impulse, 2 Warp Engines, 1 Drone, and 1 PH-3.

The Worlds of Unions CA has no Shield #2, no Shield #3, and no Shield #5. The World of Unions CA has taken 12 points of damage to Shield #6.

The Worlds of Unions CA has no RH Neutronium Armor. The Worlds of Unions CA has taken 8 points of damage to its FH Neutronium Armor.

The Worlds of Unions CA has lost 1 Warp Engine, 4 Impulse, 3 Batteries, 3 APR, 3 LPPs, and 1 Box of Hellfire Torpedo.

TURN 7

Both ships are turning around. The Kzinti CA is facing Direction F. The Worlds of Unions CA is facing Direction C. They are 7 Hexes apart.

The Worlds of Unions CA is moving slow. The Kzinti CA is moving slow.

Worlds of Unions fires 1 SPP at Range 8. It misses.

Kzinti fires 2 overloaded Disruptors at Range 8 through the Down Shield #5. The Worlds of Unions CA takes 6 Internals.

Kzinti fires 3 PH-1s at Range 8 through the Down Shield #5. The Worlds of Unions CA takes 5 more Internals.

The Worlds of Unions takes 11 Internals total.

The Worlds of Unions CA loses 3 Warp Engines, 1 Box of Hellfire Torpedo, 1 Bridge, 1 SPP, and 1 EPP.

Kzinti launches 3 Drones, Speed 20.

The Worlds of Unions can only fire 1 EPP at the Drones because the Drones are off to the Left Side. The Worlds of Unions CA has lost its LPPs and SPP that could fire to the Left Side.

Worlds of Unions fires 1 EPP at Range 2 at 1 Drone. The Drone is destroyed.

Worlds of Unions launches 1 Hellfire Torpedo. It is 1 Turn, Speed 32 (Level 1), LTF 3 (Level 2), ROL 1 (Level 1).

The Worlds of Unions CA turns towards the Kzinti CA.

2 Drones strike the Worlds of Unions CA. 24 points of damage are applied to Shield #6. Shield #6 Collapses. The Worlds of Unions CA takes 12 Internals.

The Worlds of Unions CA loses 1 Battery, 3 Warp Engines, 1 APR and 1 EPP.

Worlds of Unions launches another Hellfire Torpedo. It is 1 Turn, Speed 32 (Level 1), LTF 3 (Level 2), ROL 1 (Level 1).

The Kzinti CA fires 2 PH-3s at one Hellfire Torpedo. The Warhead Strength is reduced by 2.

2 Hellfire Torpedoes strike the Kzinti CA. The Kzinti CA marks 14 points of damage off Shield #2.

The two ships are facing opposite directions. They are both passing each other at Range 1.

Worlds of Unions fires 2 EPPs and 1 SPP at Range 1. 26 points of damage are applied to Shield #2. Shield #2 Collapses. The Kzinti CA takes 16 Internals.

The Kzinti CA loses 4 Warp Engines, 3 PH-3s, 3 Batteries, 1 Drone, 1 Impulse, and 1 Disruptor.

Kzinti fires 2 PH-3s at Range 1 through Down Shield #2. The Worlds of Unions CA takes 7 Internals.

Worlds of Unions CA loses 4 Warp Engines and 1 AUX.

At this point in the Duel, the Kzinti CA has no Shield #6, no Shield #2, and no Shield #3. The Kzinti CA has taken 22 points of damage to Shield #1 and 11 points of damage to Shield #4.

The Kzinti CA has lost 6 Warp Engines, 3 Impulse, 5 Batteries, 4 PH-3s, 2 Drones, 1 Disruptor, and 1 Bridge.

The Worlds of Unions CA has no Shield #6, no Shield #2, no Shield #3, and no Shield #5.

The Worlds of Unions CA has no FH Neutronium Armor and no RH Neutronium Armor.

The Worlds of Unions CA has lost 11 Warp Engines, 4 Impulse, 4 Batteries, 3 LPPs, 1 SPP, 2 EPPs, 2 Boxes of Hellfire Torpedoes, 4 APR, and 1 Bridge.

The turn ends with the Worlds of Unions CA facing Direction E and the Kzinti CA facing Direction A. They are 7 Hexes apart.

TURN 8 AND ON

The Worlds of Unions CA has 19 Total Power Left, 2 Hellfire Torpedoes (One Box Each), 2 EPPs, and 1 SPP.

The Kzinti CA has 24 Total Power Left, 3 Disruptors, 4 PH-1s, 2 Drone Racks, and 4 PH-3s.

In order for the Worlds of Unions CA to be able to fire its Hellfire Torpedoes, it must turn around. Since the Worlds of Unions CA is missing 4 Shields (2 on each side), it will expose itself to Internals while it is turning.

From here, it was an easy matter for the Kzinti CA to speed up, keep its distance, and fire Disruptors and Phasers from Middle Range through the available Down Shields.

When the Worlds of Unions CA managed to launch its Hellfire Torpedoes, the Kzinti CA increased the distance and then blasted the Hellfire Torpedoes with its Phasers. In the meantime, the Kzinti CA still had its Disruptors to fire at the Worlds of Unions CA.

In the end, the Worlds of Unions CA was Destroyed.

The Kzinti CA was Victorious!!


Captain Garfield of the Kzinti CA-Lasagna says in a deep voice, "You remind me of Odie."


NOTES/SUGGESTIONS/CONCLUSIONS

1) The Worlds of Unions CA has now lost twice to the Kzinti CA. The Worlds of Unions CA has won one Duel against the Kzinti CA.

2) We believe that if we used the Kzinti BC (Battlecruiser), the Worlds of Unions CA would have lost for sure. The reason for this is because, during the last 3 Playtest Duels, there were many times when the Kzinti CA could not fire all 4 Disruptors and 2 PH-1s (at the front of the Kzinti CA) due to the limited Firing Arcs (they were not FA). The Kzinti BC would not have this problem and that would give it a great advantage over the Worlds of Unions CA.

3) We question whether each Hellfire Torpedo should have 2 Boxes. During this Playtest Duel, the Kzinti player rolled elevens (on the DAC) twice, which should have destroyed 2 Torpedoes. However, because the Worlds of Unions CA has four Hellfire Torpedo Boxes total, only two Hellfire Torpedo Boxes were destroyed and the Hellfire Torpedoes continued to function (a bit limited though).

This forces the opponent to roll elevens on the DAC Four Times, as opposed to only Two Times. Normally, if a ship has two Torpedoes, two rolls of elevens and they are both destroyed. But with Four Boxes of Hellfire Torpedoes, the opponent must now roll eleven (on the DAC) Four Times. It is questionable whether this is balanced or not.

4) If you decide to keep the Two Boxes per Hellfire Torpedo, then we highly recommend to have a greater penalty for the Worlds of Unions player when One Box of Hellfire Torpedo gets Destroyed.

The Hellfire Torpedo Rules currently state that if One Hellfire Torpedo Box is Destroyed, the Hellfire Torpedo cannot be armed for 4 Turns and it can no longer fire a Pseudo Hellfire Torpedo.

However, the Worlds of Unions player in this Playtest Duel simply armed the Hellfire Torpedoes for 3 or less Turns. And he used Real Hellfire Torpedoes and not Pseudo Torpedoes. So, in effect, it was like the Worlds of Unions player suffered no penalty at all, despite the fact that Two Boxes of Hellfire Torpedoes had already been Destroyed.

We recommend that the Levels and Turns be Restricted if One Box of Hellfire Torpedo is Destroyed. If One Box of Hellfire Torpedo is destroyed, there should be a Maximum of a Level 1 Upgrade (Not Level 2) and only a 1-2 Turn Arming Length (Not 3-4 Turns). This will weaken the use of the Hellfire Torpedo, making the Destruction of One Hellfire Torpedo Box (or rather, rolling one Eleven on the DAC) more effective.

Of course, if you decide to eliminate the Two Boxes for each Hellfire Torpedo, that would solve the problem.

5) During this Playtest Duel, some ideas came up about Hellfire Torpedo X-Technology. We suggest, for X-Hellfire Torpedoes, to do two things:

a) Allow Speed, LTF, and ROL (all three at once) to be upgraded to Level 2 if the player wishes.

b) Allow the Hellfire Torpedo to be armed in Two Turns

6) Since the Worlds of Unions CA lost twice to the Kzinti CA, and considering that you wanted the Worlds of Unions CA to be equal to a Kzinti BC, we recommend that the Worlds of Unions CA be "beefed up" or made better by doing one of the following:

a) Increase Shields #6 and #2 to 27. Also Increase Shields #5, #4, and #3 to 24 (or at least 22).

b) Either add 2 more EPPs or 2 more SPPs (one more for each side)

c) Change the RA LPP to a SPP or EPP

d) Increase the FH and RH Neutronium Armor

7) If you want the Hellblazer and Hellblaster tested, please send over the Revised Rules for the Hellblazer, along with the Revised Ice Dragon SSD.

8) The Turn Mode and Power Curve on the Worlds of Unions CA seemed fine.

9) The SPPs did not seem overly powerful in this Playtest Duel.

10) It may have been premature to recommend to lower the Damage Multiple on the Hellfire Torpedo. In the last two Playtest Duels, the Hellfire Torpedo did not seem excessively powerful. Further Playtesting is required.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 11:57 am: Edit

Hi Francois. I was reading up on the Qari and Borak Turrets. They both allow the Turret to rotate up to 360 degrees, even to the rear (toward Shield #4).

Why is the Imperium's Turret limited so it cannot fire to the rear (toward Shield #4)? Also don't you think this might possibly cause some confusion with players who are used to Qari and Borak Turrets?

Please let me know your rationale for the Imperium's Turret. Thanks.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 01:17 pm: Edit

I will note that the Worb's turrets have a limited traverse, as do some of the Borak's.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 02:02 pm: Edit

One thing I'd be concerned about is attempting to balance this ship (or any Triangulum ship, for that matter) against a cruiser with such a heavy reliance on drones.

If part of the point of M33 is to provide a less seeker-heavy environment than one would find in Alpha, there may be the risk that, if the Arachnids are made good enough to withstand successive drone waves launched from a Kzinti ship, they may be overly effective when faced with the "native" drone-like seeking weapons they would face historically in the Triangulum Galaxy.

Unless the Triangulum empires are to be made equally capable of dealing with large numbers of seeking weapons - which may end up forcing them to either take more of their own seekers to try and compensate, or to lean more heavily towards direct-fire weapons instead.


Also, if the Trobrin can work with double-box mounts for their heavy implosion torpedoes (or triple-space ones for their super-heavies), I wouldn't be in a hurry to see the Arachnids lose the current SSD setup for their hellfire and hellblazer torpedoes.

That said, some sort of reduced effectiveness when having only one active weapon box should be reasonable. (The arming limit sounds good, and is reminiscent of the way which the linked chambers of a Baduvai CPA work over in the LMC.)


Of the other empires which operate turrets, I would think that the Worb comparison may be the first one to go with, since the Technocracy is medium-sized historical empire with a good range of ships with "real" technology that served for several decades "in-universe". The Borak had a very limited window of opportunity to fly their own warships before being "dealt with" by the Hydrans, and the Qari are a simulator empire only.

Personally, I like the idea of the Imperium keeping the current divide between turret rotation capabilities. In my view, it gives the fleet more character if one must take more care in how to adjust the turrets on cruisers and dreadnoughts, while leaving the frigates and destroyers to provide support to their larger fellows.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Hi Gary and David (or is it A.David?). You both bring up excellent points.

I checked in Module E2 and it says nothing about Triangulum being a "less-seeker heavy environment than Alpha". Gary, did Francois express to you at some point that his vision was a "less-seeker heavy environment"?

Triangulum is full of seeking weapons. Hellfire Torpedoes, Variable Plasma, Ram Torpedoes, and Javelin and Spear Missiles, to name a few. So it doesn't make sense (to me anyway) to say:

"Unless the Triangulum empires are to be made equally capable of dealing with large numbers of seeking weapons"

Triangulum already has large numbers of seeking weapons and I'm sure they learned how to deal with them. In addition, we don't know what Francois has planned in terms of Scatterpacks or Fighters. Triangulum could easily get just as complicated as the Alpha Sector in terms of Seeking Weapon Usage.

In my opinion, Playtesting means constant Revision. Perhaps the Worlds of Unions battles a Kzinti and some changes are made. Perhaps the Worlds of Unions battles a Fed and some new changes are made. Perhaps the Worlds of Unions battles a Gorn and some changes made before are removed. Playtesting, to me, is not just "revise it once and its now perfect (and set in stone)."

For our Playtest Group, we are starting with Triangulum against Alpha. But we certainly have plans to Playtest Triangulum against Triangulum in the future. And that is where the fun really begins. So I don't think that Gary's statement is necessarily true:

"if the Arachnids are made good enough to withstand successive drone waves launched from a Kzinti ship, they may be overly effective when faced with the "native" drone-like seeking weapons they would face historically in the Triangulum Galaxy."

It will be revealed (later) if the Arachnids are overly effective against their own native, seeking weapon using Empires, when the Arachnids are Playtested against other Triangulum Empires. Remember, Playtesting is constant Revision.

You both bring up great points about the Turret. Lets see what Francois says about it. Thanks.

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Norm,

I haven't heard that personally, but I would point out that both Omega and Triangulum have a much heavier dependence on FP over FD weapons. When they do have FD weapons, they tend to be weapons that either don't actually hit the board or hit the board in fewer numbers and higher effectiveness. Note those are tendencies.

The overall effect of this, stated or not, is that you still have seeking weapons in the game, but you don't end up with games like I tend to be in with 100+ drones in the air at any particular impulse.

Mike

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Hi Mike. You make an excellent point.

I totally agree with you in regards to Omega. The Designer's Information in the Omega Modules clearly states the intentions.

But Triangulum's tale has not been fully written yet. Are you basing your information solely on Module E2 and Captain's Log #23? Are you also considering the Khadij, the Valorean, the Human Republic, Unicorp, Sunfire, Demony, Corsairs, Yvrin, Azary, Wega'gan, Atrean, and Frigian? And what about the Darklings, Lishard, Kzorthan, Barbardian Hordes, and Xxrix?

What about Triangulum Scatterpacks, Fighters, Fast Patrol Ships, X-Ships, and Carriers?

Only Francois knows the vision of what he wants Triangulum to be in the future in regards to Drone-Like Warfare. We can only speculate based on limited information.

So while the statement, "a less-seeker heavy environment than Alpha" may or may not be true in the future, I think it too early to assume that (unless Francois just plainly states this is what he wants Triangulum to be).

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 05:43 pm: Edit

Norm;
As far as Triangulum is concerned, while there is a large variety of seeking weapons, they are carried in smaller numbers. As an example; the Worlds of Union only currently have two torpedoes on their CL class on up. A Gorn or Romulan CL has three, CA four, and DN five.

As to the various Empires in Triangulum, during the Interregnum Francois started publishing this on the web, while I have neither seen all of his Empires, or the current stage of development, I can say that lower total numbers of seeking weapons have been shown to be the norm. The number of drones a Kzinti can throw should be a significant problem for most Triangulum Empires.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Hi everyone,

Yes there are a little less seeking weapon in the Triangulum Galaxy and the Spear Missile (the equivalent of the drone) comes in just three variety (small half-space, standard and double space) there are no module or armor but still they can be used in scatter-pack and there are many other seeking-weapon (like the Lance torpedo, not exactly a drone, much bigger and more difficult to kill but in limited quantity on ships). True there is no equivalent to the Kzinti in the Triangulum galaxy but for the rest there are certainly some that are relatively similar to the Klingon in term of using seeking-weapon. And for plasma three empires use them extensively.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Hi David (or was it A.David?). This is excellent discussion about seeking weapons in Triangulum. I believe our Playtest Duels between the Worlds of Unions CA and Kzinti CA have raised some interesting questions.

You bring up a great point. I have also noticed that Triangulum ships carry less heavy weapons than Alpha. For example, if an Alpha ship might carry 4 Torpedoes, a Triangulum ship might only carry 3 Torpedoes.

Here is my thought process (which could easily be wrong):

1) Francois has said that Triangulum CAs should be roughly equivalent to Alpha CAs.

2) Francois originally wanted me to run the Worlds of Unions CA against the Kzinti BC (Battlecruiser). I insisted on using the Kzinti CA to start off with.

3) The Worlds of Unions CA has lost twice in our Playtest Duels against the Kzinti CA (not the Kzinti BC). From feeling and watching how the Worlds of Unions CA performed in combat (over many Turns and Multiple Duels), we think the Worlds of Unions CA could (and should) have done better against the Kzinti CA.

4) I made suggestions for improvements to the Worlds of Unions CA based on our 3 Playtest Duels and our impression of the World of Unions CA. We were not considering the rest of Triangulum or Triangulum seeking weapons when we made these suggestions.

Now a few counter-arguments (which are good) have popped up:

A) Since no Triangulum Empire has the Drone abilities of a Kzinti, the Worlds of Unions CA should not be improved, even though it lost twice.

B) Since the Triangulum Environment is supposed to have less seeking weapons (as apparent by Triangulum ships having less seeking weapons than Alpha Sector ships), the Worlds of Unions CA is fine as it is.

C) If improvements are made to the Worlds of Unions CA due to playing against a Kzinti CA, then the Worlds of Unions CA might become too tough for other Triangulum CAs.

D) If the Worlds of Unions CA got beat twice by the Kzinti CA, that is fine. It is supposed to lose. In fact, most Triangulum ships are supposed to lose to the Kzinti CA because they cannot handle the number of Drones the Kzinti CA can put out (which is not a normal thing in the Triangulum Galaxy).

The counter-arguments A) though D) above are all valid points worth considering.

I guess some other questions must be answered:

1) If the Triangulum CA are supposed to be the equivalent of an Alpha CA, are Drone-Using Alpha Empires purposely Excluded (because Triangulum does not have the amount of Drones that Alpha does)? Meaning no Triangulum CA should be a match for a Kzinti CA or BC? Or perhaps also a Klingon D7, since it too uses Drones? Or maybe even a Federation CA, because it has a Drone Rack and might launch a Scatterpack Shuttle?

2) Are all Triangulum ships assumed to lose automatically if they go up against an Alpha Empire using Drones?

3) If improvements are made to one Triangulum Empire to balance it against an Alpha opponent, and that improved Triangulum Empire is now better than other Triangulum Empires, should not the other Triangulum Empires be improved as well?

4) If each Triangulum Empire is Playtested against Alpha Empires and Improved as needed, then, In Theory, the Triangulum Empires should end up balanced against each other as well.

This is all excellent conversation and debate. My main purpose is to Playtest against Alpha and recommend changes for Balance. If there is an Exception or Technicality that prevents any recommended changes, like Triangulum not using many Drones or Triangulum shouldn't be prepared to combat Drones, then I would need to know about it.

Hopefully Francois will soon clarify these things for us all.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Thanks for the clarification, Francois. It looks like we posted our messages at the same time.

So it sounds like, since Triangulum also has Drone-Like Weapons, the Kzinti (and other Drone-Using Alpha Empires) should be considered when balancing against the Alpha Sector. In my opinion, this is a good thing, because specific Alpha Empires should not be excluded from Playtesting and Balancing just because of the weaponry they carry.

Which means that my recommendations for improvements still stand. Francois, what do you think of the Suggestions and Comments in the last Playtest Duel? Could you please go through each number and let me know what you would like to do? Thank you.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Tuesday, December 03, 2013 - 07:50 am: Edit

Hi Norman,

The Hellfire Torpedo cannot have just one box since this would mean that after only two torpedo hit they would be reduce to phaser boat. But I like you idea of adding a little penalty (above the limit of a 3-turn arming torpedo). So before the Y120 refit if a launcher is reduced to 1 box no improvement can be added, after the Y120 refit no Level 2 improvements can be added. Also SC 4 unit would be reduced to only 2-turn torpedo (instead of 3-turns).

How about that?

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Tuesday, December 03, 2013 - 09:52 am: Edit

Hi Francois. Limiting the improvements based on the Yxxx Refit is a great idea. That sounds good.

We also felt it was important, if One Box of Hellfire Torpedo was Destroyed, to limit the Number of Turns (on the CA) for Arming to 2. If you leave the Arming Cycle at 3 Turns Maximum, even with One Box of Hellfire Torpedo Destroyed, the Hellfire Torpedo is still very effective, even with the Loss of the Level 2 Improvements.

1 to 2 Turns of Arming uses the x4 Damage Multiple. 3 to 4 Turns of Arming uses the x5 Damage Multiple. So taking away the 3-4 Damage Multiple (x5), if One Box of Hellfire Torpedo is Destroyed, will appropriately limit the "damaged" Hellfire Torpedo (in our opinion).

Please confirm the Turn Limit to 2 if One Box of Hellfire Torpedo is Destroyed (on the WOU CA). Thank you.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Tuesday, December 03, 2013 - 03:38 pm: Edit

No the WOU CA would be reduced to three turn (it is SC 3). You have to remember that a Gorn BC or a Romulan FH after receiving two torpedo hits are still armed with 2 plasma S. A Hellfire torpedo limited to 3-turns arming is roughly equilvalent to a plasma S.

SC 1-3 pre-Y120 refit: You lose the ability to armed 4-turns torpedo, you lose the ability to launch pseudo and you lose the abililty to add any improvement to the torpedo.

SC 1-3 post-Y120 refit: You lose the ability to armed 4-turns torpedo, you lose the ability to launch pseudo and you lose the abililty to add any level 2improvement to the torpedo.

SC 4 pre-Y120 refit: You lose the ability to armed 3-turns torpedo, you lose the ability to launch pseudo and you lose the abililty to add any improvement to the torpedo.

SC 4 post-Y120 refit: You lose the ability to armed 3-turns torpedo, you lose the ability to launch pseudo and you lose the abililty to add any level 2improvement to the torpedo.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Tuesday, December 03, 2013 - 03:44 pm: Edit

Ok, that reasoning makes sense.

Thanks for the clarification, Francois.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Monday, December 09, 2013 - 01:37 am: Edit

Hi Francois. I received the updated Hellfire Torpedo Rules and Worlds of Unions SSD. Thanks for sending them.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Summary of playtest battle: Federation CAR+ versus Atrean CA.

Turn 1: Federation CA speed 8/16 split, Atrean CA speed 17.
Summary: Fed moves slowly while overloading photons. Begins arming wild weasel. Atrean arms plasma-X as three medium.
Fed launches a scatterpack on impulse 18 and attempts to keep range open while scatterpack closes.
Neither player fires weapons and end turn 17 hexes apart.

Turn 2: Federation CA speed 12/20 split, Atrean CA speed 16.
Summary: Impulse 6 the scatterpack launches 6 type-IF drones. The Atrean launches a plasma-X-medium with endurance upgrade on imp 6 and imp 12.

The Atrean launches its third plasma-X-medium with no enhancements on impulse 14.

The Fed will end up using 4 phaser-1 to reduce the first plasma-X and will get hit on shield #3 for 8 damage.

The Fed will use most of its remaining phasers to reduce plasma #2 which hits shield #2 for 16 damage. Plasma #3 hits the damaged shield #3 causing 10 internals, including one photon and the drone rack.

The Atrean turns off and is pursued by the Fed. the Atrean uses its phasers to kill all the drones. The Fed fires 3 13-point photons, but only scores one hit, causing minor damage to shield #4.

Turn #3: Federation CA speed 16, Atrean speed 20.
Summary: The Fed cancels the wild weasel and begins repairing the photon lost on previous turn. The Fed pursues the Atrean and they exchange phaser strikes between ranges 5-8, only shield damage.
They end the turn at range 8.

Turn #4: Federation CA speed 16, Atrean speed 16.
Summary: The Fed begins with an impulse 1 strike of 3 photons (12-point warheads) and 4 phaser-1 and does 32 internals after breaching shield #3 of the Atrean. The Atrean losses a few phasers and warp, all of its hull, and a plasma-X.

The Atrean scores minor phaser damage to the Fed CA #1 shield. The Fed CA turns around and is pursued by the Atrean. They end the turn at range 6.

Turn #5: Federation CA speed 17, Atrean CA speed 8.
Summary: The Atrean launches a plasma-X-small (reduced due to damage to the other launcher)and several phasers at range 6. Moderate damage to shield #4 of the Fed.

The Atrean follows up with launching 2 plasma-X-medium (one with endurance upgrade) and more phasers causing additional minor damage to shield #4.

The Fed turns off and manages to divide plasma-X damage over two shields. The Fed saves his phasers for the plasmas. Shield #4 is reduced to 0, shield #5 to 17.

The ships end the turn at range 11. The Fed repairs his photon. The Atrean begins repairing his plasma torp.

Turn #6: Federation CA speed 8/12 split, Atrean CA speed 11.
Summary: Atrean phasers waken the #1 shield of the Fed, who withholds fire. They end the turn at range 8.

Turn #7: Federation CA speed 16, Atrean CA speed 12.
Summary: The Atrean has to turn to protect its #4 shield. The ships exchange fire between ranges 6-8. The Atrean knocks down the #1 shield of the Fed and scores 12 internals (one photon), the Fed scores 18 internals with phasers and 10-point overloaded photons (plasma-X, several phasers).

By the end of the turn the ships are at range 5 and the Atrean has only the RX MPP left for phasers.

Turn #8: Federation speed 25, Atrean CA speed 1.
Summary: Impulse #1, the Atrean launches 2 plasma-X-medium with speed enhancement and one plasma-X-small. The Fed fires several phasers at shield #1 and begins running from the plasmas. It will use remaining phasers and speed to weaken the plasmas, but will get hit on shield #4 for 15 internals (losing another photon and 3 phasers).

The Fed turns back and the ships end the turn at range 7.

Turn #9: Federation speed 12, Atrean speed 10.
Summary: Atrean begins rearming plasmas as small, but only has one MPP. The Fed CA circles until it can get to shield #3, and scores 15 internals.

Turn #10: Federation CA speed 8/12 split, Atrean speed 5.
Summary: Atrean CA begins with 11 power and concedes after the Fed scores a hit with a 16-point photon (the only one it has left).

OBSERVATIONS
Previous I suggested the Atrean may need a bolt option but the increased endurance option of the plasma-X seems adequate.

This was a close battle. The Fed one because it maximized the use of its shields, ending the game with only 15 shield boxes remaining.

We felt this a balanced battle overall.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 09:02 pm: Edit

Cool report, Nick. Can't wait til we get to playtest the Atrean.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 09:08 pm: Edit

Thanks Norman.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 09:32 am: Edit

Great report Nick!

You could also try a Long-Range Overloaded PL-X MED. It gets a warhead of 45, lose 2 points of warhead per hexes but not during the first 10 hexes (long-range), so at range 20 it still does 25 points of damage.