Archive through December 27, 2013
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
Tholian Tactics:
Archive through December 27, 2013
if you're careful with your movement, you can try using small web as a seeking weapons net. 5 hexes off a palsma's endurance and bunching drones for a TB.
But you really need to know your maneuver or the seeking weaposn will end around something as small as a snare.
Do you have an access to Tholian Cs, CAs, or CCs? If so, a Tholian cruiser and a DD can build a six hex globular web "in game" in a single turn. The ships will be moving slow and they will not have the power to build the web plus reinforce it on a single turn (you need at least a third ship for that). Once built, it takes some skillful manuever, often including tacs, speed changes, and tractor rotations to get everybody back inside the web, but it can be done.
For this to work, you have got to have some room. If the enemy fleet sees what you are doing and they can get to you in the turn you are building the web, the Tholians are toast. To get this to work, the ships pretty much need to use all the power they have to lay web. Typically no significant power for weapons, maybe a little EW, and very low speed.
Been playing the Tholians quite a bit in a campaign. I'm actually developing quite an appreciation for the disruptor-armed vs photon-armed Tholians. Photons obviously pack more one turn punch and are flat spooky lurking behind well-established web. But, photons are power hogs. They constantly consume power and as a Tholian sitting behind web, you surrender the initiative. The photons have to be ready all the time because you never know when the guy is going to dive in. You don't really have the option of not arming the photons to gain power for repeated phaser shots or juicing the web. Besides, if you're not going to load the photons, what's the point of taking the ships? Also, you pretty much have to overload unless you can arrange to be at range 2 from the web (usually not good for damage generation) or plan on jumping into the web to fire before the other guy gets there (a good way to get mutual annilation, but it surrenders most the web's advantage, so what's the point).
Disruptor boats are another matter. Its a lot easier to skip out on a turn of diruptor arming for web work, and the disruptor doesn't have to be overloaded to fire at range 1. Outside of the obvious DNs, the best web building warship the Tholians have is the disruptor-armed CC (CCH has the same power), followed closely by the disruptor-armed CA. With 31 power, a disruptor CA can lay 4 hexes of web in a turn (with no help from battery burning). Working with a DD, it can get a globular web built in a turn (DD has 20 power, enough to lay 2 hexes). On the following turn, that CA can get back inside the web and have overloads ready. A CAP cannot really do that and a CCP can barely do with some battery burning. The disruptor boats don't have the one turn "gotcha" of photons, but in my view its worth it if you want to have options.
You don't need a ton of cruisers - the Tholian DD has awesome shields and good punch. They are fine as the rank-and-file, but I've found a cruiser is key if you are going to use in-game web building.
DD generates 19 power, not 20.
••••...you're right Alan. That's what I get for going from memory!
That said, the DD (at 19 power), can get the job done as described above.
One other caveat on the above tactic...
Be selective when you use it, particularly if you are playing against a single opponent or a small group of folks. You may take somebody by surprise the first time you do it and get away with it, but it is far from unbeatable. Do it too much, and folks will figure it out, jump on the Tholians before they can get safely back inside, and the gig is up. I've been playing the Tholians in our current campaign for about 3 years now, have fought more battles than I can count, but I think I've only actually used this type of web build 2 or 3 times. And only then when an opponent was over 45 hexes away or on the opposite side of a planet from an orbiting base. More often than not, in offensive battles where I don't already have established web, I have not used web at all. 12 hexes at zero strength is about the max I can really start with on the defensive, and that reduces how many ships I'm allowed to have in the battle and costs me economically to maintain (we pay a supply cost on ships and, in my case, any pre-established web). So far, I haven't been able to use casters or snares due to the year of the campaign...but that day is coming!
Any how, I hope that helps.
I DO get all of those boats, though admitly one of each (though also the CCH, and a couple of others), the C and CC come reasonably early on in the campaign. Based off of the rules, a C and DD would start with 5 web on the board, so, they could complete on impulse 2 move on 4 and then camp thereafoter (with everyone else starting inside the partially formed wall). How effective is the R1 single-tier tower as a tactic? The campaign rules pretty much enforce relative parity on force size (at least by BPV).
What's the best course of action regarding the pinwheel in such a situation? I can start with it formed (WS3), or is it better to have the ability to have everyone facing the bad guy at a single impulse?
If you can mass enough ships, even little guys like DDs, behind a single layer of web, you can make assaulting a radius 1 globular web a very bloody affair. The key is to hammer the attacker when he is about to enter with phasers, with the goal being to remove a significant portion of his firepower before he can fire himself. Fighters and shuttles can be big here, as they really boost that pre-emptive shot. Then when the attacker does enter, he is punished by a second volley of heavy weapons. Heavy damage will take place on both sides, and ships will blow up, but the tactic largely nuetralizes seeking weapons and gives the Tholians a chance to win, albeit very bloody.
As for the pinwheel, its a decision with PCs. Pinwheel immediately. The PCs only weapons are FX Ph-1s, and the 12 in a PC pinwheel can always be brought to bear by a single tac. The gain in shields is easily worth it and give the PCs a chance to survive that inital assault without giving up any of their firepower.
DDs and CWs are a little different choice. A good chunk of their added firepower is tied up in FA-arc weapons and in a pinwheel, you can't get them all in arc at once. Well planned TACs can make that a minor issue, but it depends on what you are trying to do I guess. Worst case, as long as the target is stuck in web, swinging the remaining heavy weapons around 1 impulse later gives nice mizia opportunities. And it is hard to argue with the resulting shields generated by pinwheeled DDs or CWs. Easily 2+ times as strong as a typical DN.
I think the hardest thing campaign players face when dealing with Tholians is that they have a tendancy to force very bloody battles (at least if anybody wants them to be decisive). Most other matchups end up with two forces meeting each other, one side gaining an advantage, and then the disadvantaged guy bails out before losing too much. Pretty much the formula unless there is some strategic reason to "fight to the death". Building webs makes the Tholians strong, but it creates very much an Alamo mentality. The Tholians are stuck behind immobile web and can't really seek disengagement. So, the Tholian player has to accept he can't get away if he gets behind web and thus must be ready to fight battles to the death. I think a lot of campaign players get accustomed to winning and losing battles without taking lots of actual ship losses in combat, then run into Tholians and are not prepared to deal with a pure battle of attrition. To beat the Tholians, ships are going to blow up. A lot. Tholian ships will blow up too, but they will flat lose if they get out built. That can be hard to accept, and makes the Tholian advantage on the defensive seem more powerful than it really is.
Depending on your campaign structure, an allied ship or two with access to a lot of seeking weapons can be very scary in a web. They can be lauched the impulse before an opponent moves into the web, forcing the opponent to either delay his attack or go around. And every seeking weapon benifits from a target that can't run.
Handy seige tip: Plasma is not TOO discomfited by strength-1 web and said web still works as a firebreak against DF.
Thanks folks. You've given me a lot to think about and a lot of great tactics that now I need to execute on.
Hopefully, I'll draw some reasonably creampuff battles to get my feet wet and then onto mass death and destruction for the glory of the Home Galaxy ... or if not the recreation of the Tholian Will, then at least a solid show of defensive might.
Gods know you have enough phasers to make it a fight. Note to self: 200 pts of Seltorians can't beat 270 pts of Tholians at close range...
In one of the Captains Logs, SPP published a method for using the minimum number of web casters to attack a planet defended w/ 36 GBP4s. IIRC, the Tholian force consisted of 2xPC NDD NCL.
Anyone know which CL that was? I have it, but I have not been able to find it.
I'll try to remember to look in my stacks when I get home. I know I have it, too. Somewhere in the 20s, I believe.
CL#29, pg 46 - NCL, NDD, 2 NFF
Thank you very much.
Hey All,
I'm new to these boards and am excited that they exist. I have yet to start up any SFB games, but Tholians have always been a favorite race of mine. I read these posts and notice no mention of my favorite Tholian ship of all, the dreaded PC. It was the only Tholian ship for a long time back when I was more of an avid player. I was wondering if it is still in service now-a-days for tournament and fleet battles or if it's somehow been mothballed. I personally wouldn't be surprised if it has been removed due to its sheer, awesome might, but the cockles of my heart hopes this is not the case.
Hey Marc, welcome!
The Tholian PC is alive and well, bro...lighting up the keisters of Klingons everywhere! Haha.
SFB has evolved quite a bit since you played. I personally think it's the greatest space combat game ever created.
ADB has a Facebook presence as well and it rox:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Amarillo-Design-Bureau-Inc/231728653279
Anyway, welcome again, and "let's you and him fight!"
Thanks Randy,
I checked out the Facebook page and it looks "sweet" to use a parlance of my time. It looks like I need to do some more reading to get into the swing of things. It looks like you guys use an online version of the counter game. I'll need to learn that too. Thanks for the link!
"Well if we HAVE to use plotted movement, I'll choose an if/then station keeping plot..." (Me 20 years ago)
Yes there's an online version of SFB, but I've never played it.
If you are into F&E at all, I highly recommend Cyberboard if you want to PBEM. There are a LOT of cool electronic tools to facilitate game play.
They even just released PDF versions of the basic set SSDs, which comprise a huge proportion of ships that you'll use in your game for the "base" empires.
The people here are really helpful, so feel free to jump in and ask questions.
Its a mix. Im blessed that we have a reasonably large in-person community here in Colorado, as well as the online games.
Playing the Tholians in a campaign currently, I can attest that they are alive and well. Okay, not the Tholians I'm playing, but in general. I can also attest that the national motto rarely holds when the "you" is the Seltorians and the "them" is the Kligons.
As the Seltorian in question, I learned to use your motto quite well. I let you and the Klink beat up on each other, then I came through and cleaned up what was left. :D
Yes, yes, yes. The Seltorian treachery is now WELL established. 
For the board's edification, it ended up being ...
* Tholian - CC,DD,PC+
* Klingon/Seltie - Kli - D7, D7Nk, E3, Selt-CL
I took a corner of the board and built myself a little web-hole. Campaign rules allowed me to start with a 0-pt web. The Seltie was (unconvincingly) attempting to pose friendly to the Tholian and they took their time getting over to the fort. By the time they got there, had a 12-pt web around.
The ensuing 6 turns of R1 combat left the E3 disengaged, both D7s and all the Tholians destroyed and 30 or so internals on the Seltie.
Any tips for good Tholian tactics in earlier ships? IE, no web, snare, caster, etc.
With very few exceptions, the Tholians will always have ships able to use web.
If you have time, it can help to make a small globular web to use as friendly terrain.
One idea I like to use (which I've only used successfully "on paper", not in play) is to build up a small (radius one or two) globe close to where I started. Even if I stray away from this (perhaps because I'm assaulting some fixed installation), it makes a good place to tow the cripples so they can do EDR/CDR and not have to disengage. Since it takes 7 turns for 0-strength web to disintegrate, you can even leave this alone for protracted engagements, and still expect it to be there when you need it. Perhaps you can manage to move the action within 15 of this "fort", so a scout (i.e. the PC-based scout) can be protected from reprisals while still doing scout-things.
As for standard open-space tactics, I would say to go for a low-intensity conflict. Not many races can keep up with you if you manage to do the range-15 thing. Particularly since you so often can fight (with *some* effectiveness) while running away. This lets you drag the action to the before-mentioned fort, since most opponents will be frustrated by a range-15 conflict (the Klingons are a notable exception).
If you can convince the opponent to follow you to your web-fort, you can dive in and snipe at him with phasers. This gives him to option to leave you alone (so he can repair shields, which also allows you to repair) or follow you in. In most cases, an opponent attempting to web-dive against fully-armed Tholians can expect to lose a ship (either an outright explosion, or so badly mangled as to be out of the fight) the impulse before hitting the web (Then the Tholians usually lose a ship in return).
Edit: Just read some of the posts above. Read Jeremy Grey's posts. He was playing the Tholians in the grandfather-campaign to the one you inherited them in. Yes, some rules have changed, but the tactical situation hasn't changed much.
Matt,
I tried that in a prior campaign and the problem I had with that tactic is that it takes 7 points of power to lay 1 0-strength web hex. That means that you need two ships to generate 35 points of power above housekeeping to generate a 1 hex diameter fort. That's two PCs for 3 doing not much else for 3 turns. If your opponent gives you three turns to build a tree fort, good for you. I'll blow up either of them and then the web collapses as an unanchored linear web.
That's not to say that it's not possible, just really hard to pull off. Having the right ships really does help in that regard. A tender can make rapid work of it and a CC and DD do an admirable job. If you have the option of where to start, start as far away as possible (assuming your not defending a fixed locale, if you are, you paid for prelaid web, right?). Also, if the map is fixed, you can cheese the situation by not bothering to complete the web and just "tucking" at a corner and you can dedicate that power to reinforcing your web.
If you do manage to pull it off, I suggest dropping every shuttle you have off in the middle. One of the joys of the Tholian is that you have more phasers than the other guy (usually by a fair deal) and you get to draw the combat to range 1. You'll be hurt, all the shuttles will explode, but •••• aren't they going to have a great time on their way out.
Mark,
My thoughts ...
In the early years up through the starts of the general war, the Tholians had more shielding, free power and phaser 1s than any of their historic rivals. You can use both your fast speed and the great phasers (and phaser arcs) to your advantage.
Also, don't discount the merits of the pinwheel. If you can pull off the pinwheel WITH the tree fort, you have a ridiculous defensive structure. I would point out that while the pinwheel doesn't have operable warp engines, it also doesn't have positional stablizers, so if you set up a rotation rate on it and let yourself be towed, you've got a ship carrying around a pretty massive buzzsaw of death.
The web largely comes into it's own when you are defending what you already have. Consider the Tholians boa constrictors. When you give them an inch, you're never, ever getting it back.
There's great debate over whether the "wedding cake" or the "buzzsaw" structure for base defense is the best.
The buzzsaw has a lot of pros IF you have a way to punish them for going between the tines. A minefield is best, t-bombs are a very costly alternative. It has the downside that you've got to get a bunch of asteroids down to your locale to make it work. Normal SFB lets you buy them for 25BPV each.
Mike