Andrew,

What makes you think the rom ship I posted can possibly take a range 8 alpha from a Fed BB? It has only marginally better shields than a 1X CC, and not much more internlas. It does, in fact, have less plasma punch than a 1X CC does, and only a bit better phaser punch. I just don't see that ship taking down any BB as it stands right now, and certainly don't see it as being over 400 BPV. Look at the SSD again, and see if you really think it's that good.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Speaking of taking second looks,

The kinder, gentler, 8xP-5 ISC XCC is now up at my site.

http://www.vorlonagent.com/sfb/ISC_XCC.gif

Mike, check your inbox. It's headed your way so everybody's stuff is in one place.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 04:34 pm: Edit

That's cool. I'll post everything first chance I get; something's up with my email server. I can't access it, not even remotely.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 04:43 pm: Edit

John: I don't know if it's all the coffee I've been drinking or what but what I looked at it I got a chill. (???)

Anyway, a rack of four tractors would be more traditional. Two is a bit light for a King Cruiser like this don't you think? I mean, it would be pretty sad for a XCL to rendure this monster unable to Anchor with two to four H&Rs.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 05:06 pm: Edit

Mike, the Version I estimated 430 for had XMMMDDDD, superior to X1 armament even ignoring the faster plasma. The reduced armament on the revision is significantly less powerful - though I'm not sure that I'd call XMLLDDDD weaker overall than the MMSS of the X1 version.

Taking the BB alpha - the revised ship has 54 generated power. Housekeeping needs 4 points, EW gets 8, holding the M and X torps as G's needs two. Assume a fast/slow plot with 26 total moves and get the split in the wrong place, so that the BB gets to take the range 8 shot we're discussing. The remaining 14 power gets used as general reinforcement (7 effective boxes). During the turn five reserve power are used to finish the X and M torps, so 13 is available for reinforcement.

36 box shield + 13 reinf + 7 general = 56, so around 4 internals on average (though hard to exactly that -more likely to take either none or about a dozen).

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 05:17 pm: Edit

And that's what I was shooting for. In no way should any X2 cruiser be able to stand up to a BB, period. BB's are special, IMHO...no ship should be able to go toe to toe with one and live through it. The revised ship you see is actually pretty much what I first posted; I changed it some when it was percieved as not powerful enough, then put it back when the general opinion was it was too much. The big power for this ship is the plasma X, which can travel at forty, and be loaded as a sabot for a speed of 48 (though at significant cost.) Other than that, it's really not much better than the X1 Firehawk...and in some ways, it's weaker.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Looking at the Hydran, I think the BPV seems reasonable, perhaps even a touch high. Could do with some transporters, though.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Loren,

Thanks. I guess it shows that I started with a TC SSD, huh?

Version 1.2, sporting 4x trac, is now up.

http://www.vorlonagent.com/sfb/ISC_XCC.gif

BTW, was that a good or a bad chill?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Depends which Captains chair your in.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 05:37 pm: Edit

4 int's average, after making a big enough mistake that the non-X ship got to range 8 centerline fully loaded, seems pretty survivable to me.

Mike, assume a floating map, no terrain, EW in use. You have a Fed BB with six mega-F14's. How do you beat your design using the plasma ballet?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 05:44 pm: Edit

The same way you'd beat an FHX. Really, it just isn't that much better. It has only marginally more power, slightly better shields, less plasma punch, and about the same phaser power. The cloak cost is more, energy cost of the X torp is quite high. I think that if you can beat an FHX with a BB, you can beat this one. Might not be easy, but it can be done.

In any case, the issue at hand wasn't if the ship could beat a Fed BB...it was if it could survive a Fed BB's alpha strike from range 8 without taking internals. Specifically, it was...

---

Quote:

If your ship can (thanks to EW and other defences) take a range 8 alpha from a Fed BB without taking internals, the BPV should probably at least match that of the Fed BB.

---

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 05:53 pm: Edit

Ok. How many points of non-X Feds do you think would be needed to have a balanced fight?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Not sure...have to playtest it out. But I think 380 points of Fed warships should be able to handle this ship. For that many points, you can get a squadron of three Fed CA's. At equal BPV's, they should be able to beat one another 50% of the time, which I think is possible. Certainly map types will have an effect...closed maps will favor the Feds, while open will favor the Rom.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 06:03 pm: Edit

By the way, I have an entire set of Fed SSD's to be looked over, both Y205 initial versions and the later Y215 upgraded versions. They include the CA, CL, DD, FF, and GSC for starters, then the CC, CL+, DD+, FF+ and BCH for later. It's alot to post, so I haven't put them up yet. Anyone want to take a shot at looking them over?

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Same calculation, under more favorable conditions for the X ship - assuming a planned range eight pass rather than an accident.

Basicaly the same as above, but on passive fire control or with an ECM plasma out, forcing two shifts on the BB.

Allocated reinforcement is on the right shields, not just dumped in general.

BB average drops to around 30 points, reinforcement available jumps to 27.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 06:10 pm: Edit

On the contrary, the three Fed CAs would do quite well. Stay away and pound it with 12 photons.

The example given is not the full Alpha from the Fed BB either. The Fed. BB has a considerable drone allotment and at R8 the Rom is facing quite a few Type-IVF drones. Not to mention fighters. In return I suspect the Romulan will do less against a larger shield.

Sure the Romulan faired well against the initial strike but now it is facing an equally undamaged beefier foe.

One turn does not a scenario make. The Romulan is going to get clobbered.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 06:14 pm: Edit

CA's would be like kicking puppies - NCL's would probably be better, since they are faster.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Mike, need you ask??

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 06:18 pm: Edit

Hop on SFBOL and we can try playing it out.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 06:22 pm: Edit

Either way, the Romulan should consider getting close either. The Feds could make a mad run and slam it with 192 points of OL Photons + 120 (average) in phasers.

= Very Dead Romulan and two damaged Fed cruisers (+one dead)...at worst. A fair trade.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit

4 D racks, rapid pulse phasers and Aegis - I suspect that drones from just the BB won't be a problem.

Add in the fighters and the match looks more even to me, but thats putting the X ship up against a 500 point force.

(With maxed type-IV drones to save points: 326 BB + 24 drone speed for BB + 126 for 6 F-15DM + 30 drone speed for fighters = 506)

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Hmmm, 12 prox torps through 10 ECM at range 12. Average four hits for 16 damage every two turns. 18 batts, fast shield repair and plentiful power on the Rom - going to take a while. Assuming that the Rom doesn't just HET and run the CA's over while empty, what do you do about the Sabot X and M EPT's in the meantime?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 07:37 pm: Edit

Andrew, that 10 ECM was still in discussion. And you end up pointing out that it may well be too much in that GW will always face a +2 shift that it can do nothing about. (and X1 a +1 shift.)

If 10 ECM is the thing then allow the Feds to have a GSC. Thats two less photons but a better fight.

Additionally, if the Romulan XCC is floating all of it's EW as ECM then it too is facing a +2 shift.

Further more, in the Fed. BB battle the drones might have an ECM Drone in the pack. (possible at this year). Drones will likely die but at a cost of fire power. If the XCC fires as rapid pulse just one Ph-6 then it looses the offensive Ph-V mode for the turn (and possibly for eight impulses into the next turn).

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 08:12 pm: Edit

That 10 ECM was assuming X1 rules only - 8 generated, plus 2 from passive fire control or 3 from an ECM plasma. With 10 X2 ECM, it could get to 12-13 effective ECM.

Seeking speed 48 plasma couldn't care two bits about the ECM of the target. Even if it did, the batts on the X ship let it see enemy EW then customise it's own to counter quite easily.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 08:26 pm: Edit

Andrew, you obviously don't beleive this ship can be beaten by 380 points of pissed-off Fed BB. Rather than argue endlessly with hypothetical scenarios about why, just tell us why 380 is too low. I don't think it is, but I'm open to listening.

Just for outside opinion, is there anyone that doesn't think a Fed BB with options to bring it up to 380 BPV can't beat the proposed ship half the time? Here it is, for those that haven't seen it...

Mike's Romulan XCC