So, it's looking like the goal is for SFBOL players to use paper SSDs at their desks at home while playing online.

Mmmmkay.

Let's say you're a campaign GM, like me, Josh, and others.
What if your players don't have all the products? Can the GM provide the SSDs for his game?
If not, how is it any different than being at a convention handing out SSDs for players?

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 11:54 am: Edit

I get it, and I have the super awesome platinum rules and tons of other adb products too, all the charts and tables I need and want, annexes too. It was just nice to have it right there, especially the refits, reloads, and the Yr avail.

Thank you for the fix as I am using the d5 ssd in a big ass battle online now, and it was tough not being able to launch my drns.

As a tangent to this, is it possible to get the client to list the last launch of a drn launcher in the IA window, when you are launching drns? It is hard to remember if you launched a drn from a given rack when you have 40 drns racks, could the drn racks show the last drn launch from that rack in the IA window when you are launching drns? In the panel?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Randy wrote:
>>Let's say you're a campaign GM, like me, Josh, and others.
What if your players don't have all the products? Can the GM provide the SSDs for his game?
If not, how is it any different than being at a convention handing out SSDs for players?>>

I'm confused. This debate happened and was ended, like, 2 years ago.

The 3rd Generation SSDs are not super awesome for all purposes, no. But they are a reasonable compromise between:

A) What the company needs to happen.

and

B) What SFBOL would like to have available.

When SFBOL was invented, it was invented solely for Tournament play. And that is what ADB was on board with, as it didn't theoretically cut into their sales of actual products (as tournament SSDs were already freely available online and from pretty much anywhere). As time went on and SFBOL evolved, people gained the ability to upload non Tournament SSDs. And lots of people did this. A lot. And then one day the game designers were all like "Uh, aha? Every single SSD we have ever published and hoped to sell is available for free to download online? That isn't what we agreed to…"

And thus, here we are. The 3rd Gen SSDs on SFBOL are a compromise. They give folks the ability to play non Tournament SFB online via SFBOL, but still mostly require you to actually own the stuff you are using (you don't need BPV values at your fingertips during a game; weapon charts are already in the client; I suspect that adding a pulldown of turn mode charts would go a long way towards alleviating most of the important missing info from the 3rd Gen SSDs) and they aren't real useful to just download and print off to use instead of buying the actual SSD product.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 01:15 pm: Edit

I'm aware of all this...thanks for the history lesson nonetheless.

Your answer is non responsive to my question which I may have asked incorrectly. Let me try again.

I have 21 players in an online campaign.
If one of them has ships on his OOB that he does not have SSDs for, CAN *I* the GM provide them so s/he can play the new SFBOL?

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 01:27 pm: Edit

My solution to your problem Randy is to never put a ship in my game that doesn't already exist in the library.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 01:39 pm: Edit

I would also require the players in my campaigns to own the products, that way they cant say they don't have the SSD's, rules or charts to play their empire.

It isn't an unreasonable expectation that ADB would like to make money on their game by selling a copy to everyone who wants to play it.

It seems to me that giving out the SSD's to a guy who's never bought the SSD book is exactly the reason the SSD conversion project is happening.

Nothing is preventing your player from buying the SSD book but if you give out the SSD's he needs do you think he will ever buy the product?

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Well, Josh, that will be all of them, soon, right?

The 3rd Generation SSDs make it mandatory for the player to have a paper copy right? Wasn't that the intent? It appears that's the outcome.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 01:48 pm: Edit

My question is why is he playing a game or empire from the game that he doesn't own?

The intent of the project I think was not to make it mandatory that the player have a paper copy in order to play but that the players all buy a copy of the modules they want to use in their games.

Just look at your players situation, you may or may not be allowed to give him the SSD's, but if you are allowed to give them away he's not going to buy the product. Why not just suggest to your player that he spend a little money on the game?

I guess if your really serious about playing SFB on SFBOL you will roll with the blows and buy the products and if necessary have a paper copy of every ship handy.

This is just the reality of where the SFBOL clients headed.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Well, *I* have all the products. I don't have an actual case of someone not having the SSDs that I know of YET.
Therefore, nobody has chosen an Empire that they don't own, that I know of.

This isn't about the client.

This is about what materials can I, as the GM, provide to my players. I host a game at conventions and at demos, and I provide all the SSDs. Is that wrong to do?
My question is, what's the difference?

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:00 pm: Edit

I don't think you can compare conventions and demo's with putting a ship into the SFBOL library.

At a convention or demo your providing one individual with one copy of a ship that your going to use to play one game, add it to the library and you've given all players who have an active account what they need to play it whenever they want.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:03 pm: Edit

No man...

I am NOT talking about putting anything in the SFBOL library ok?
While it is true they'll be using it, I am NOT asking about putting 2nd gen SSDs back on the table ON THE CLIENT.

Player A doesn't have the DNL SSD for his Empire, but it's on his OOB. On SFBOL, a 3rd gen is available (eventually), but he needs a paper copy to play. Can *I* provide that PAPER COPY?

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:07 pm: Edit

I'm not following why he needs a paper copy.

What specific information is missing from the 3rd gen SSD's that he must have to play?

The only thing I can think of is refit costs.

For those you don't need to provide him a copy of the SSD you need to provide him a list of refits and costs.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Isn't that the point of the 3rd Gen SSD project, confirmed by actual play by Justin, that you really need to have a paper copy of the SSD with you in order to play SFBOL?

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Almost every bit of information that's been removed from the graphical SSD's we were using in 2nd generation can be found in module G3, or in the units R section entry.

Even with 2nd gen SSD's I need to keep both G3 and the R section around to look things up.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Most of the information Justin needs is still available you just need to know how to find it in the client.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:14 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Most of the information Justin needs is still available you just need to know how to find it in the client.

---

By Andrew J Koch (Droid) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:16 pm: Edit

I will answer your question Randy: Yes. You can provide a paper copy.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:23 pm: Edit

You can even figure out a refit cost, you just need to be able to subtract!

So its wasted paper but they are your trees Randy.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Feh. I care not about trees.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Randy, it is one thing to go to a con where you are (hopefully) getting new people to show up and (probably) using the tournament ships to do it. Those people will (with a bit of luck) end up buying stuff from the company.

It is another to provide SSDs to a person who should (theoretically) have them. It is saying to the person that he doesn't need to buy that module. It happens in face-to-face situations where someone might be trying out a new ship. But in a campaign, something as basic as a DN SSD should be owned by the player.

When I played the Frax and then the ISC in SFB Galactic Conquest, I bought the modules "my" ships were in. It never crossed my mind that I shouldn't.

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 02:59 pm: Edit

How is this conversation happening in the bug reports thread?

Paul can you please respond, when you have time, and let me know if the functionality can be put in place in the IA window for drn racks to show the last drn (and the turn/imp) launched from each rack? Thanks.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Wait...
Let me get this straight. In all the years I've played F2F with my old gaming group, and I printed off the SSDs for the game *I* was GMing, I wasn't supposed to do that?
And for the record, I don't always use Tournament Ships at the cons. Do I need to stop doing that, too?

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Randy, I said it happens in F2F groups. And I explained that cons are designed to get new customers, so we allow that.

Established players on SFBOL *should* have their own SSDs.

SSD books really are NOT that expensive.

Folks, this "I play on SFBOL so I don't have to buy ADB's products to fly the ships I like" attitude (if it indeed exists and isn't just a hypothetical concern) is what stirred the pot last time. Let's end this discussion now.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 03:42 pm: Edit

Alright I need you to explain this to me like I'm two, because I don't get it.

I don't see a difference, functionally, between a F2F game where we are using paper sheets, and an online forum (such as SFBOL).
I read you as saying if my F2F pal who doesn't have a DNF paper SSD is different than an online pal who doesn't have a DNF paper SSD. Am I understanding you correctly?

By Andrew J Koch (Droid) on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 03:51 pm: Edit

lol Justin.