Well, looking back at the SSD's, most small ground bases have only one shuttle, and I doubt that it would be replaced. As for the alternates, I seriously doubt there were F-7C's, and a megapack for F-7 would be quite rare.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 06:14 am: Edit

Kommodore Ketrick, your marine forces await your orders.

Kaptain Kray

(SPP, I'll be standing by. I figure all these Feds need someone to shot at. )

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 07:26 am: Edit

SPP a few questions and explanations if you would be so kind.

Do the GCL get any GDS. Reading D15.125 I assume not with "previous unoccupied" being the current situation as far as the military are concerned.
Q1 Is my assumption correct?

I am unsure how safe or otherwise our shuttles are.
D15.43 only seems to give protection when entering a contested GCL.

D15.542 seems to extend protection as long as they are moving via P2.423

Q2 So is it true that if the shuttles keep moving using P2.423 they are safe from orbital interference?

Q3 Does the use of the transporter repeaters on defsats expose them to fire from enemy?

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 10:06 am: Edit

Battalion Organisation
A four company approach by Captain Paul Stovell

This is designed to mesh with the Standard ACE deployment outlined by Col Loren.

2215
"A" Company
GMG 10BP 2HWS CO +2commando's +2GCV[4bpv]
with 3 GAS,AS and 3GCV
"B" Company
GWS 2 BP CO +4BP +2HWS +2trucks[4.4bpv]
forms first and second platoons plus enlarged Heavy weapons section
FGB-S 2 BP CO +BP +3DC +2trucks[2.4bpv]
forms third platoon

"C" Company split up to cover GBDPs
GBDP(A)2 BP CO +1BP +2HWS +truck[2.7bpv]
forms first platoon and heavy weapons section

2215B
No Bases

2215C
GBDP(C)2 BP CO +1BP +APC +GCV +truck[2.7bpv]
forms second platoon of C company.
2215D

"D" Company
GWS 2 BP CO +4BP +2HWS +2trucks[4.4bpv]
forms first and second platoons plus enlarged Heavy weapons section
FGB-S 2 BP CO +BP +3DC +2trucks[2.4bpv]
forms third platoon.

2215E
GBDP(E)2 BP CO +BP +APC +GCV +truck[2.7bpv]
forms the third platoon of C Company

2215F
No bases

Analysis.
One company from 2215 can be shuttle lifted
3 GAS and 2AS with 10BP still leaves the FGB-S's shuttle available as a scatterpack
5 transporters allow a second company to be moved an non-combat rates to reinforce a base in one go or half a company as immediate fighting reinforcements.

From Pauls
I choose 2 HWS per company to match the GMG's set up replacing one with a GCV might be more effective although the HWS do maximise the effectiveness of our limited transport capability.

A Five Company Battalion could be arranged by dumping the GDBP bases armoured vehicles and having each with 2 platoons 2BP CO +4BP +4trucks.

This is probably the most effective arrangement as ground troops are always in demand to hold the GCLs. It did seem pushing it to inflate a two company start-up to Four companies so I bulked at Five

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 10:42 am: Edit

SPP,

Q4 I've just noticed J13.0 casual bases are an optional rule. Do you envision there use?

Thanks

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 11:18 am: Edit

Thoughts on Fighter Commanders options

I think the following are allowed on standard rails

Internal and external armour
Given most drone kills will be from ADD's,TBombs or drones launched against drones this seems marginal. Still its cheap(free) so a few to keep the enemy honest IMHO.

Multiwarheads
Not allowed

ECM
Nothing we can defend with them.

Spearfish
Not IMHO. I'd rather get 12 shield hits if we actually get a drone to impact.

Extended duration/ type III
If enemy goes 96 hexes from the planet to outrun our drones well.... I don't believe its worth the points with fast drones

ATG
Rather useful especially when/if our ground bases start getting taken out.

Swordfish
only the type-3 phaser armed ones available but I am rather a fan. Set to fire on reaching range 3 or less doesn't seem very effective but every point of damage is useful and if drone launches are spread out some will reach range 2. They will often take an ADD shot on the impulse they fire so use say 60% as much defensive firepower anyway.
I have got range 2 shots through down shields before now when an odd survivor gets a shot as Tbombs are beamed out to deal with the next drone wave before

I'd guess we will start with straight F-4s so plenty of type-VI drones.

Q5 SPP do the small fighter bases get the increased percentage(D%) of special drones?
Or does it need to base 12 fighters to get them or have I got it all wrong?

If vanilla F-4 then by my calculation 62 typeI and 76 typeVI 6,15,41 limited,restricted,general per base.

My choice(I know my characters a gunner but I can't resist a good scheme)
6 type I-swordfish 1 in ready racks
6 type I-ATG 1 in ready racks
3 type IA6 (half space of armour) 0 in ready racks

Double these numbers if get D%
this only costs 0.5+0.5=1 bpv I think as only drones in ready racks are paid for.
This leaves 16.2bpv if straight F-4s so buy 8 extra I-F drones. I'm worried by SPP's statement about counting our guns!

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 11:21 am: Edit

Captain Stovell, do keep in mind the danger of using ATG drones in the vicinity of the planet: once the drones are released to their own guidance, if the target unit unit manages to interpose the planet between itself and the drone, the drone will accept the planet as its target.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 11:27 am: Edit

Do the GCL get any GDS. Reading D15.125 I assume not with "previous unoccupied" being the current situation as far as the military are concerned.

The situation is that I turned back the clock to open a forum for discussing the game set up, so the planet is not actually a "Previously unoccupied" one. The will be GDSs and all GCLs.

Today will begin the deployment. Paul, your proposal is very good and is close to mine. I do however have a couple of differences.

I'll be back.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Colonel Knight:

In reference to F-4Cs: My error. The Ship description of the unit specifically notes that there were no F-4Cs. My memory is working on the original C-refit rule which simply provided instructions on how to apply the refit. This was changed in the Rules Update #2 supplement, and further expanded in both Module J and Module G1. Sad, as I found the F-4C and admirable planetary defense fighter in my day.

So we have a stumbling block. To develop any sort of article for Captain's Log, we cannot use F-4Cs (and again, that is my error, no one else's, I have been playing this game waaaaay too long, sigh). So the options are:

1.) Use Standard F-4s.

2.) I am not aware of anything in the Mega-Fighter rules off the top of my head prohibiting Mega-F-4s. So upgrade to them F-4Ms.

3.) Change to F-16s.

4.) Change to F-16Cs.

5.) Change to F-16Ms.

6.) Change to F-16CMs.

7.) Change to F-20s.

8.) Change to F-20Ms.

9.) Change to F-20Cs.

10.) Change to F-20CMs.

11.) Change to F-8s.

12.) Change to F-8Ms.

Pick one, let me know, and I will input the figures.

There is no moon for purposes of the exercise. Please do not discuss it any further.

Special Notes to Captain Paul Stovell:

I had previously noted in an earlier reply to someone that Casual Bases could be used, but that there is a problem providing them with stores, i.e., any stores have to be drawn from those available (including any Commander's Option purchases) at the fighter bases.

As to GDS, at this stage any GDS would have to be "purchased". They would not be purchased as part of the Commander's Options, but would have to be purchased as part of the overall force. They would NOT provide any Commander's Options themselves. So if you wanted to add six GDS to a GCL it would add 12 BPV to the cost of the force, and that 12 BPV gets added to the attack force also. So talk it over with Colonel Knight.

Rule (D15.542) assumes combat in the GCLs. Without combat, i.e., the presence of attacking ground troops, the prohibition on firing weapons from space that might endanger friendly ground troops does not exist. A shuttle simply moving from GCL to GCL is a valid target even if flying NOP (Nape of the Planet).

Transporter operations are not weapons fire. Use of the repeaters does not expose the DefSat.

GENERAL NOTE TO ALL:

F-7s are NOT available. You have the admin shuttles because you need the admin shuttles for general operations.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Captain Chobot:

You are correct about adding marines adding transporter artillery rounds to the GMG.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 01:20 pm: Edit

I assumed there were 6 GDS but now realize they were never listed. I am strongely for 6 x GDS otherwise Biloxi and Fargo can fall to just on enemy BP. If we have nothing there then they can transport at non-combat rates. If we do commit our limited resources to one or both they may get slaughtered by a good assault and there would be nothing left.

The down side is that if there is a GDS it is something that can be captured and is harder to take back.

Hmmm, 12 BPV...could be a lot, could be a little.

Thoughts from the staff?

Re: Fighters, well OK. Just to note, I would like to keep the BPV down.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 01:43 pm: Edit

I am leaning towards F-16Ms. In this theater having type 6 drones could indeed be a plus and this reduces cost as well. I am quite sure I donot want F16CMs though that is only 11 BPV (that 11 BPV would but the six GDS) There would be a F16EM.

So the BPV of each would be F16 (7) + Mega refit (3.5) + Spd Upgrd F (2.5) = 13 each x 11 = 143.

F-16E (9) + Mega refit (4.5) + Drn Spd Upgrd of two type VI drones (1) = 14.5

A total of 157.5

Thoughts?

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Unfort don't have my annexes handy, but...

An F-16 is 2xtype-I and 2xtype-VI, correct?

Fast drones would be a toal cost of 3 points (1 per type-I, 0.5 per type-VI).

The megafighter pack adds two type-I rails, and it would be an additional 2 points to upgrade those drones to fast, for a total of 5 points of drone speed upgrades.

So the cost would be: F16(7) + megafighter system (3.5) + fast drones (5) = 15.5 each x 11 = 170.5

I'm not sure about the F-16E, as I don't recall what a megafighter system provides for an EWF.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 02:35 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

Mayhap a few clarifications on the Ground Situation.

Your options are to have each ground base be its own individual Ground Combat Location (GCL), no Ground Defense Stations (GDS), and no Control Stations, i.e., key terrain (GCS).

Of you can have the base be in a GCL and use GCS and even GDS as "outworks" to its defense. In that case there would have to be some determination of the effort needed to place the base under direct attack (say control of two of three GCS), i.e., the conditions necessary to launch an attack on the base under (P2.75).

If you declare two bases (or more) to be in the same GCL, then by definition there is a GCL with GCS, but not necessarily GDS (which as has been noted have to be bought separately).

Note that bases linked into a power grid do NOT have to be in the same GCL, although the DO have to be on the same hexside. I.e., if there are four bases in 2215-A, all four could be in separate GCLs (either the base itself, or some outworks), or two, three, or all of them could be in the same GCL, but all could be linked by a power grid. But a base in 2215-B cannot be linked by a power grid to a base in 2215-A.

So with your eight bases you have to have at least Four Ground Combat Locations (Phaser-4s in A, C, and E, GWS in A and D), but might have as many as eight.

Of course, spreading your troops over eight (or nine or ten or what have you depending on how many "casual bases" your officers talk you into) GCLs makes them more vulnerable to defeat in detail.

And of course when you set up GCLs on one hexside, you CAN (not really in the rules, but implied) define time factors for non-Transporter movement between them.

Example: Base in GCL #1 on hexside 2215-A is Two Turns by Truck or GCV from Base in GCL #2 on hexside 2215-A (obviously tanks, Transporter Artillery Vehicles, etc. would move as part of trucks and GCVs), 80 turns by "foot" (i.e., foot movement would only matter in a larger campaign), and obviously one turn by shuttle. This gives some value to trucks in a given area. But of course a space based force will probably be moving its troops by transporter.
In a larger campaign, trucks (GCVs and other vehicle types) might be able to move to adjacent hexsides (say 10,000 "game turns" more or less saying in a few days), but that would usually not matter.

Now, as noted, the GDS systems have to be purchased as part of your force. If you want to do so (I was avoiding that aspect this early) and going with the simple concept of destroying the bases, and then assaulting the rag tag remnants of your battalion in their final defensive positions, or simply then bombarding the planet back to the stone age and leaving.

As to fighters, you tell me.

I am, however, glad that you are picking up on the need to have type-VI drones. One of the reasons I tossed F-4Cs at you was to see if you would realize that the drone launch rate of the fighters was such that to optimize their use you need type-VI drones to swamp the attacker's drone defenses.

To all you guys talking about using scatterpacks. You do realize that if the scatterpack "releases" before the shuttle exits the atmosphere [it moves as a shuttle except that it is guided by the seeking weapons rules, and thus operates under (P2.412)], that it will "crash". An inert shuttle in space is somewhat different from an inert shuttle in atmosphere. Unless you can transport a pilot aboard.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Alex Chobot:

An F-16 is a phaser-G that has two type-VI drone rails. Base BPV 7 points plus drone speed upgrades. Medium speed drones add 0.5 points. Fast Speed drones add 1 point.

An F-16C is a phaser-G that has two type-I drone rails. Base BPV is 8 points plus drone speed upgrades. Medium speed drones add 1 point. Fast speed drones add 2 points.

An F-16M is a phaser-G that has two type-I and two type-VI drone rails. Base BPV is 10.5 points plus drone speed upgrades. Medium speed drone add 1.5 points. Fast speed drones add 3 points.

An F-16CM is a phaser-G that has four type-I drone rails. Base BPV is 12 points plus drone speed upgrades. Medium speed drones add 2 points. Fast speed drones add 4 points.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 02:47 pm: Edit

Standard F-16 has two type-VI only; mega F-16 would have two VI and two I. Total cost per standard fighter is 13.5 (7 base + 3.5 Mega + 3 drone speed).

The F-16EM would get two extra 'pod only' rails rather than the type-I rails. As the standard F-16E can't carry EW pods without dropping speed this is a very worthwhile upgrade.

I'm a little torn on the F-16's; on the one hand toting a gatling around is always nice. On the other, they're a little bit exotic thanks to that gatling.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 02:53 pm: Edit

SPP-with reference to (P2.412) The only difference would be how you view the Admin Shuttle. either its expendable munition or it is a reusable asset. My recommentdation would be to pick course away from OPFOR and using bases with no line of sight to the OPFOR, transport a pilot on board so that the Admin Shuttle could be readied for additional mission.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 03:03 pm: Edit

Figured, was prob confusing them with something else My bad.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 03:23 pm: Edit

Drone speed = 3 ooops. My bad.
Re: Fighters. I wasn't asking SPP but thoughts from the staff. Sorry, I should have said so.

I have decided on 11 x F-16M (fast drns) and 1 F-16EM.

The F-16 is hardly exotic. It is the Primary Planetary Defence fighter. It's what it was designed for.

SPP: Oh ya, I see the need for Type VIs. I am, after all, defending.

Re: Scatter Packs in an atmosphere. Have that bronze star ready for the pilot willing to take that mission. "Your mission, the scatter pack has released it's drones and has gone inert. You are to beam abord, find your barrings and get that shuttle started, pull it out of stall and land it safely at the base. Do you accept?"

"Er...can I think about that?"

Staff: Due to the change in Fighter requsitions there will be a change to the available Commanders Options. Final deployment pending.

By Justin Howell (Jhhowell) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 03:31 pm: Edit

I'm hardly a fighter expert, but the way the remote control fighter rule from J2 has been explained to me (I don't have J2 myself) that seems to be the optimal use of fighters in most situations, including this one. The fighters can launch all their drones at once, so it doesn't matter if they are type-1 or type-6, and as a bonus the fighters take one point more to kill. So they suck at dogfighting, big deal; what are the chances a planetary defense squadron will have to dogfight? The only case I could see our pilots physically flying their birds would be for long range patrols far from the planet.

If I've been misinformed on the benefits of remote controlled fighters, just ignore me!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 03:33 pm: Edit

I'll look it up.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 03:33 pm: Edit

Colonel Knight:

As the change in fighters only affects the Commander's Option Points available to purchase fighter supplies, I see no reason you cannot post everything but the fighter Commander's Options, and then do a supplemental for the fighter's Commander's Options.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Fighters: 11xF-16CM (132), 1xF-16EM (13.5): BPV 145.5, Commander’s Option Points available (these only for use to purchase fighter supplies): 29.1.


DRONE SPEED UPGRADES: 44 type-IF for F-16CMs +44, 2xtype-VIF for F-16EM +1, 18 type-IF for Defense Satellites +18, total BPV 63. Commander’s Option Points available: 0.

Warp Booster Packs for GAS shuttles +3, for Admin Shuttles +5, total 8. Commander’s Option Points available: 0.

BPV OF BATTALION:
Total of Bases, DefSats, and Fighters, less drone speed upgrades, Commander’s Options, and warp packs: 335.5.
Total of non-Fighter Commander’s Option Points: 26.
Total of Fighter Commander’s Option Points: 29.1.
Total of Drone Speed Upgrades: 63.
Total of Booster Packs: 8.
Total BPV of Battalion: 461.6.

Adding remote control systems would not change the BPV.

Note, if you do equip the fighters with type-VI drones as has been suggested (and mayhap you will decide not to if you use remote controls), the BPV for the drones will need to be adjusted, and this in turn will reflect the final numbers of drones available prior to the purchase of any "special" drone warheads.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit

SPP: Yes, I do want the Type VI drones. As stated above I had decided on 11 F-16M and one F-16EM. That would be 22 Type IF drones and 24 Type VIF drones.

11 x F16M (7 + 3.5 = 10.5) Drn Spd upgrds = 3 for 13.5 each. Total 148.5
1 x F-16EM (9 + 4.5 = 13.5) Drn Spd Upgrd = 1. Total 14.5

Total squadron cost = 163

Comm Opt = 32.6

WBP for shuttles only.

SPP: Can I purchace 4 or 8 extra deck crews? And can these be bought with fighter points?

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 06:38 pm: Edit

I concur with Col. Knight, dogfight drones are a vital part of the stockpile. While the theortical OpFors we've discussed have been frigate squadrons or a pair of war cruisers, we don't want to discount the possibility that an escort carrier or mobile carrier may come calling.