Archive through February 25, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: 2X Drone Ideas: Archive through February 25, 2003
By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 09:33 pm: Edit

If I haven't said it before, I'll say it now...I despise ECM drones, and alwyas have. I think they're grossly unfair. So, when I was actively playing, we never used them. The ECM plasma torpedo makes my skin crawl...

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 09:39 pm: Edit

Quote:

If I haven't said it before, I'll say it now...I despise ECM drones, and alwyas have. I think they're grossly unfair. So, when I was actively playing, we never used them. The ECM plasma torpedo makes my skin crawl...


Oh, yeah...I hear ya brother.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 09:53 pm: Edit

ECM drones are a pinch of a surprise but I found players are usually counting on them and hate it when they loose them so it balances out.

Scouts are the bain of ECM drones and if all X2 ships gain the functions of at least one Special Sensor then ECM drones will be obsolete. None will last long enough to function.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Quote:

ECM drones are a pinch of a surprise but I found players are usually counting on them and hate it when they loose them so it balances out.


No. They are your own personal 1/2 scout giving you a +1 EW shift and 2 points of power ( because you get +1 with just 4 powered ECM ) and they happen to cost less than a T-bomb.

Quote:

Scouts are the bain of ECM drones and if all X2 ships gain the functions of at least one Special Sensor then ECM drones will be obsolete. None will last long enough to function.


Good!

Moreover Great!!!

Remember that if the Bridge as scout thing is used to attract the ECM and thus causes it to leave the Hex of the launching ship, that's all it can do; being just one special sensor in functionality so it can't be used latter that turn for it's 4R15 I.D. rolls.


Maybe the tactic will become to launch an ECM drone to protect yourself through goading the other guy to attract in order for the SP you have to not get I.D.ed or maybe to stop the enemy getting Tac Intel or a whole bunch of other things.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 10:55 pm: Edit

MJC: I am speaking of my own experience so not "No". I am not very put off by ECM drones. There are plenty of ways to deal with them. The fact is that I can (in a full EW game) off set a ECM drone. It the enemy wishes to reinforce their ecm then OK. I costs power to use EW. I can mitigate EW with speed and closing range or whatever. EW has a cost. I find players usually cannot do everything they want to do and float full EW. ECM drones have their value (usually at long range) but as the range narrows they become far less effective and die pretty easily. So ECM drones are fine with me. Some time, when carefully timed, they're great. In a slug fest where you both end up crippled it can be pretty great to have one when the enemy can do little about it. I have pulled my ECM drone just for that purpose. The loaded it into a repaired rack. I won me the game. So either way ECM drones are fine.

About that tactic...that is a valid one indeed, in any era.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 01:16 am: Edit

X-ships are already relatively effective ECM drone killers. Run 4 ECCM to get the -1 shift and fire using Aegis. 2-4 phasers will usually do the job out to 15 hexes.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 01:52 am: Edit

Purchasing an ECM drone kill with Phaser is costly when youy think that an ECM drone is less BPV than a T-bomb.

At Range 8 in an oblique the attacker only needs one impulse with the ECM drone active to get his +1 shift, either he has time fire and run away and thus desn't get hit or he get's protected from 1/3 of the Photons that would otherwise hit him.

ECM drones work wonders at range 8!
They should be scrapped or atleast have their BPV raise.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 01:59 am: Edit

I didn't say that I liked ECM drones, just that X ships are better at killing them than most.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Here's an idea inspired how RL anti-ship missiles work

The Harpoon proposal:

1. Final phase speed boost.
At a certain preset range to target (fixed or decided before launch?) the drones move twice every impulse. Range four or six?

2. Evasive maneuvers make drones harder to hit (sea-skimming and final attack maneuvers (pop-up attack)).
Drone gets ECM. 2 pts?

3. Increased warhead strength to make drones more dangerous. They should do more than just destroy
a shield, if they hit.

Note these two ideas are supposed to be Kzinti only. I think it proper they go this way, while Feds and Klinks concentrate on DF weapons and just make drones that are good defensively (ECM . anti-fighter etc).

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Carl,

I like the idea in general, but I'd be very hesitant to have drones that can destroy a 2X shield and do internals in one blow. Such a weapon would never play fair with a earlier generation ship, IMHO.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 02:53 pm: Edit

1 space does 6 internals, 2 space does 12 internals, no damage to shield. That should be about equal.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Cool Kzinti drone, The Heel Nipper Drone. Posted long ago in MAJOR X2 CHANGES...

Carl: Note, some time ago I spoke to SVC about drones performing EM. He said they already do and it is built into their damage rating. So, basically, no EM for drones.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 03:42 pm: Edit

Loren: Heel Nipper is an outstanding idea for the Kzintis, especially if we go with my idea about them using the disruptor cannon. They can "borrow" both technologies from the defunct Carnivons.

I don't like the notion of drones that do internal damage without striking the shields. I could live with a new and improved spearfish drone, one that maybe does 4 points on hitting the ship. But 6 to 12 would seem too much, IMHO.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Well, drones need to be meaner. "Toys" have never appealed to soldiers in real combat.
And so far drones have been just that IMO.

Mike, I think Tos mean the drones should be strong enough to both take down a shield and do some damage?
No spearfish that is.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 04:17 pm: Edit

Toys? Perhaps your play expeirence is different, but I've found them to be anything but. Nor did the Hydran that miscalculated and let the WYN AuxBox get too close and died 34 impulses into the game, thanks to drones. A drone that can collapse an X2 shield and deal internals all by itself is way overkill.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Carl,

No, he's specific:

Quote:

1 space does 6 internals, 2 space does 12 internals, no damage to shield. That should be about equal.

}

That, IMHO, is too much.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Bypassing shields entirely?

Just say "no."

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 05:20 pm: Edit

The point is by bypassing the shields it helps equalize X0 and X2. The amount of damage can be adjusted for taste. This would be special drone. Standard drones would be plain old explosive.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 05:21 pm: Edit

Somoene just suggested a negative tractor drone module.

Why didn't we think of that? :)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 05:22 pm: Edit

In New Rules, somoene just suggested a negative tractor drone module.

Why didn't we think of that? :)

By Daniel Zimmerman (Nam) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit

I gotta agree with Alex. Drones are anything but toys. They are terrain, they eat up enemy phaser fire, and they can be a major pain in the rear.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 08:45 pm: Edit

Quote:

Carl,

I like the idea in general, but I'd be very hesitant to have drones that can destroy a 2X shield and do internals in one blow. Such a weapon would never play fair with a earlier generation ship, IMHO.


Spearfish drone already exist.

Carl's statment could be read to mean that a spearfish drone does, with each half space of warhead.

GW, MY and Y ships, 3 points of internal damage.
X1 ships, 2 points of internal damage and 1 point of sheild damage.
X2 ships, 1 point of internal damage and 2 points of sheild damage.


Or it could be interperated to say that the warheads became as damaging as regular 1/2 space explosive modules thus:-
Y, MY and GW ships will take 2 internal points of damage and 4 sheild damage.
X1 and X2 will take 1 internal damage and 5 sheild damage points.


Personally I'm for the latter and think it not too bad to have the spearfish doing ( in an X2 duel ) as many points of damage in total as the old explosive module or more damage depending on the selection, quite simple Spearfish drones as they currently are, are too useless because you pay half the damage that you generate as a cost to have spearfish and then 1/3 of the damage strikes the internals, so a Type IV spearfish drone is looking at 4 points of internals and 8 sheild damage, whilst a Type VIII will do the same against an X ship and 8 internals and 4 sheild damage against an MY, Y or GW ship.
To get a good mizia with that you'ld need to hit with two type VIII drones and thus do 16 internals ( and thus have a pretty good chance with the mizia ) but if you hit that sma e sheild with a regular pair of Type VIIIs then you do 48 points of damage ( against a 30 box sheild ) and do 18 points of damage internally ( a better mizia BTW ).
To get the same 16 point mizia in a X1 ship duel you need to hit with all 4 drone ( doing just 32 points of damage to the shield ) but if you got four type VIII drones to hit, the 144 points of damage would shicenate the ship with 104 points of internals.


Touching up the Spearfish drone so that it'll do more shield damage is in my opinion a responsible act as the increase in damage to the facing sheild will allow direct fire attacks to do internal damage as well, which is not the case currently with Spearfish.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 08:54 pm: Edit

MJC,

I didn't say they didn't exist. Carl's post was to develop a drone that would totally destroy a 2X ships shield, AND do signifigant internals...that's too much. At least, that's how I interpeted this statement:

Quote:

3. Increased warhead strength to make drones more dangerous. They should do more than just destroy a shield, if they hit



As for your spearfish idea, you said:

Quote:

GW, MY and Y ships, 3 points of internal damage.
X1 ships, 2 points of internal damage and 1 point of sheild damage.
X2 ships, 1 point of internal damage and 2 points of sheild damage.



SVC has pretty much nixed any kind of weapons that don't do equal damage to the various generations; that is, you can make a 2X weapon that can do more damage to a 0X ship than it would a 2X ship. You have to keep it consistent. I'm all for a bigger and better spearfish drone, but not one that does 12 points or completely ignores shields.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Quote:

As for your spearfish idea, you said:


Quote:

GW, MY and Y ships, 3 points of internal damage.
X1 ships, 2 points of internal damage and 1 point of sheild damage.
X2 ships, 1 point of internal damage and 2 points of sheild damage.


SVC has pretty much nixed any kind of weapons that don't do equal damage to the various generations; that is, you can make a 2X weapon that can do more damage to a 0X ship than it would a 2X ship. You have to keep it consistent. I'm all for a bigger and better spearfish drone, but not one that does 12 points or completely ignores shields.

I know it's been 86ed, I was taking about how one could interpret Carls suposition.

Personnally it's a pitty the X1 revision didn't look a bit deeper into the X1 stuff and scrap the X1 spearfish.
But maybe having spearfish play unfair is okay, if we make them so useless that no one will want to employ them at all.

Personnally I'ld go with upping to total damage to being equal to a standard explosive module and then do X1 internals from spearfish modules with the remainder being sheild damage as that will ware-down the sheild enough to allow for a the DF weapons to also strike and do their own mizia.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 09:25 pm: Edit

Mike,

I think Carl was looking at *some* assurred damage, not popping a shield like a soap bubble.

As least I don't THINK he was trying to turn normal drones into Exodrones...

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