One important point is the new designs will REQUIRE gizmos in order to be fun!
Yes, each new generation will have fewer design flaws than the previous ones(it's a natural development seen in RL). The ships are becoming more perfect for each generation. This is bad. Perfect ships are not much fun.
(my favourite ships are the ones ADB designed in the early days of SFB.)
Therefore we NEED gizmos. The more the better.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 08:11 pm: Edit

I'm not interested in balancing X2 vs. X2. If we balance X2 vs. X0/X1/XP then X2 balance should easy. Using this theory the concept of 'we need a 24-point plasma to deal with shield shifting' is putting the cart before the horse. If it doesn’t work with X0 it doesn’t matter how cool of an idea it is.

The other thing I’m worried about is compound inflation. If we take a Fed CX and add 20% defensive tech, 20% offensive tech, 20% power and bats, 10% advanced movement, 10% other small X2 advantages and we have a 500-point ship. But wait, we only improved systems by 10-20%. How did the BPV go up so much? Inflation. See my point? Many small changes make big BPVs.

To fulfill our mandate that X2 have a BPV system that works with X0/X1/XP I propose that we build starships with several very minor improvements over X1 and fewer weapons. These Y205 ships would not improve on X1 offensive tech (we are at peace) and would not improve power systems (but would make X1 sized engines cheaper to maintain). These ships would have their capabilities (not BPV) limited by treaty. These ships would integrate the design flexibility to allow them to be quickly converted into warships should the treaty break down.

Then the Xorks come and everyone quickly upgrades their fleets to the warships they were meant to be. Since no one in the Federation had ever seen a Klingon X2 warship when the warship designs were created the upgrades are all over the map. I can see the Romulans building SPH like modular ships with a defensive phaser and some hull in each module, then within a few days of war swapping their fleet over to M-torp toting assault modules filled with bats and phasers. Think how much fun inspectors will have trying to verify treaty compliance in a galactic empire with cloaking tech when modules can be swapped as easily as tug modules. It’s a pity the Xork attacked a few years before the Romulans could put their nefarious galactic power grab plans in place; that would have been a fun little war.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Here's my vision:

Two separate tech levels. One for the Trade Wars, the other for the Xorks. I was reluctant to call the Xork period X3-tech, but I'll use that term for right now because there is a big difference.

X2 - The Trade Wars. The Golden Age of the Pirates.
All of the Galactic powers have exhausted themselves after 35 years of almost constant warfare (15 years as bitter enemies, 2 years being pacified, then 16 years against a common enemy).

1) The Galactics need to rebuild their non-military infrastructure and so have a lot less resources to dedicate to warship production. This means fewer ships, but a need for better ships.

2) Due to the economic troubles, high maintenance ships have to be scrapped or mothballed.

2a) Becuase of their high replacement rates in even the lightest combat situations, attrition units are the first casualty of peace.

2b) Due to their high maintenance costs, DNs are the second.

2c) Unrefitted X0-tech is another casualty due to being outclassed by the newer ships (namely the X2, X1R, and XP ships), but they can be sold to Pirates if a Galactic is desparate enough for cash. Nobody will sell a DN, and nobody will buy attrition units.

3) The Pirates have a Golden Age. They plunder the Devestated Zones along all the borders, using their own Raiders and the war surplus that the Galactics have been getting rid of.

4) A new tech level comes out. But there are more than just tactical differences between X1 and X2.

5) Multi-Role ships: For the first time in 35 years, the new-construction ships are not pure combat ships like the BCH, CCH, and CX were. These multi-role ships have designs that are similar to the Y140 multi-role missions of generations past, but with improved gizmos. Multi-Role can be reflected on the SSD by having fewer combat systems.

6) Improved systems / new systems. As all X2 ships will be new construction, there can be never-before-seen gizmos on the ships.
An improved phaser, so you can have the same firepower of an X1 but with fewer phasers.
Improved heavy weapons.

X3 - The Xorkarellian Invasion
The ships in this period may or may not be refits of the X2 ships.

Until we know what the Xorks look like, ANY designs for Galactic ships in this time period are a waste of time.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 09:52 pm: Edit

I have a suggestion:

Everyone who's active on this board should look through the archives, especially the Timeline, and pick ONE race.

Design that race with YOUR vision of what the X2 ships should look like (CA, CL, DD, FF, and any varients).

The design should be made WITHOUT any more collaberation beyond the framework that's already here.

Then, we all put up our SSDs, gizmo rules, and explanations, and see what we have.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 09:58 pm: Edit

I can live with that. I'll even put any SSD's up on my page for the duration of the discussion.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 10:36 pm: Edit

Hey Mike, sending you a Fed to show if you will.

Thank ya.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 10:52 pm: Edit

I'll take the Rom's. I got a few Ideas That I'll send you in a few days. I'm gonna stay with a more X1 flavor than many ppl will. With relatively little Gee whiz tech.

I will be using the Poll as a starting point.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 10:55 pm: Edit

The bulk of Jeff’s stuff I am aligned with. The exceptions basically come down to the nature of the trade wars.

“2c) but they can be sold to Pirates if a Galactic is desperate enough for cash. Nobody will sell a DN, and nobody will buy attrition units.”

The races won’t knowingly sell military surplus to pirates. That’s like the US in 2003 selling surplus F-16 to OBL. They will sell to independent but allied worlds and legal trade cartels. These ships would then be used as a local defense force/national guard or as convoy escorts. The pirates may get some of them, but not directly. X2 vs. X0/X1/XP combat will be the norm as the empires attempt to exert their will over the now independent former colonies. There is a great three-sided battle opportunity as two empires compete for trade with a colony looking out for its own interests. Furthermore attrition units will be as popular as ever to inexpensively prop-up in-system defenses.

“3) The Pirates have a Golden Age. They plunder the Devastated Zones along all the borders, using their own Raiders and the war surplus that the Galactics have been getting rid of.”

This becomes pirates raiding planets/convoys no longer under the protection of the fleet. Since an independent planet can purchase warships from anyone and the pirates might be an opposing empire or priviteers there aught to be some really interesting scenario combinations.


The rest of the points all align well with my thinking. For more info on my vision, go read my 1/30 post in the timeline topic. Should this conversation be happening in timeline?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 11:19 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

The races won’t knowingly sell military surplus to pirates. That’s like the US in 2003 selling surplus F-16 to OBL. They will sell to independent but allied worlds and legal trade cartels. These ships would then be used as a local defense force/national guard or as convoy escorts. The pirates may get some of them, but not directly.

---

By Aaron Gimblet (Marcus) on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 11:29 pm: Edit

Johns no doubt more knowledgeble than I am (heck, almost everyone is more knowledgeable than I am) but if noone else steps up to the plate, ill slap together some X2 Hydrans for everyones favorite SSD design Program (Mike) to do...

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 11:34 pm: Edit

You are describing methods covered under my 'not directly' comment. Privateers in particular I can see as probable, but not linked to the existing Orion cartel. Trade cartels would likely be direct (less illegal) competitors to the Orions. It is all very Wild West as any one system may see ‘trade’ representatives with a dozen different agendas. Are they pirates? Sometimes. But only one or two would be aligned with the Orion cartels.

Jeff's Pirate may be my trade cartel or your privateer. I read his example to mean Orion Pirate but if he meant anyone operating independent of an Empire then perhaps we are even closer than I thought.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 12:59 am: Edit

Tos, that's exactly what I mean.

Orion Pirates, hired Privateers, independent cartels, basically anyone with a warship that's not part of a Galactic Power's navy.

The Devestated Zones will be kind of like The Wild West.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 03:10 am: Edit

No govt in their right mind would sell military equipment to Pirates.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 09:07 am: Edit

Kenneth, if you need some to try ideas on I volunteer. I am a die-hard Rom since I started playing 12 years ago

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 10:25 am: Edit

I'm working on some new Fed stuff, based on what I've read so far. I'll get them up later.

Aaron, email me with anything you need regarding your Hydrans.

By Aaron Gimblet (Marcus) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 11:21 am: Edit

Mike... it may be a day or three, work is beating me senseless at the moment.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 11:28 am: Edit

Cfant: Today's privateer may become tomorrow's pirate.

While no government would DIRECTLY sell to Pirates, there are a number of indirect channels (fronts) for the Pirates to use. See MJC's previous post for a few examples.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 12:23 pm: Edit

No problem...take your time. Just let me know when you're ready.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 01:41 pm: Edit

I'll see what I can do with the ISC

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit

my contribution to the final solution....

Thanks Mike!!

http://www.geocities.com/raperm2002/FedXCAcfant.GIF

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 05:01 pm: Edit

No sweat, dude. Glad to help. Consider it my contribution to the project.

On another note, I'm just about done with my collective Fed proposal, based on Ken's poll and some other comments I've seen, plus my own ideas. I do have a question, though, about what people think about 2X labs. I'm figuring they'd be better than normal labs at identifying stuff, and while the answer may be as simple as just giving them a +1 die shift for rolls, I'm curious what others think about this.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 05:47 pm: Edit

I'll take the Kzinti.

So far that's

Fed	Mike Raper
Klingon
Romulan	Kenneth Jones
Kzin	Jeff
Gorn
Tholian
Orion
Hydran	Aaron
Lyran
WYN
ISC	John Trauger
LDR
Selt

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 06:29 pm: Edit

I like the idea Mike.

Hey Jeff, add my name next to Mikes for the Fed.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 08:21 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

my contribution to the final solution....

---

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Was in a dark mood when I posted, and was refrencing something inappropriate. Sorry about that. Nothing final at all