Archive through June 08, 2014
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Tournament Zone:
Tactics Discussion:
Archive through June 08, 2014
I like to factor in the difficulty of flying a ship into it's overall rating. Hence the big drop for the ATC in my list. Also primary reason for the Kzinti moving up so high. I think it is a bit under rated, in general.
1 - WYN Shark
2 - WYN Aux
3 - Klingon
4 - Kzinti
5 - Orion
6 - Romulan TKR
7 - Romulan TFH
8 - Hydran
9 - ArcheoTholian
10 - ISC
11 - Gorn
12 - Lyran
13 - NeoTholian
14 - Federation
15 - Lyran Democratic Republic
16 - Romulan TKE
17 - Seltorian
18 - Andro
Interesting that several players rank the Gorn below the non-submarine Romulans. Is it because the cloak is used so rarely on those hulls that it's really a non-issue? Is it that the relative TMs make those ships easier to use over the Gorn? If TMs were the issue, then why isn't the WAX rated lower?
I also note that [you folks] rate the ISC above the Gorn. Is the PPD easier to use over the bigger (or more plentiful) plasma?
>>Interesting that several players rank the Gorn below the non-submarine Romulans. Is it because the cloak is used so rarely on those hulls that it's really a non-issue? Is it that the relative TMs make those ships easier to use over the Gorn? If TMs were the issue, then why isn't the WAX rated lower?>>
I always rate the TFH and TKR as better than the Gorn specifically 'cause of the cloak. Because having a cloak, even if you don't ever activate it, significantly changes the way most opponents fight against the Romulan, and always to the Romulan's advantage. Drone ships need to marshall drones, to avoid losing a lot of them to a cloak; you can't take a bunch of damage to corner the Romulan, as it might just cloak out and not suffer from being cornered, etc. Most of the time, a Romulan TFH is going to cloak at least once in a game. The TKR less so, but still it is a potential.
With the Gorn, an opponent can generally out run plasma, biding time, looking for a window to rush and corner you. Which for a lot of opponents, works well. Even if they take a bunch of damage getting there. The Romulan, in a pinch, can just cloak and avoid getting killed and reload. Against the Romulan, for example, the Fed is virtually hopeless. Against the Gorn, the Fed is actually pretty good.
>>I also note that [you folks] rate the ISC above the Gorn. Is the PPD easier to use over the bigger (or more plentiful) plasma?>>
The PPD gives you very significant direct fire along with reasonable plasma. The existence of the PPD often means your opponent is going to suicide run at you to corner you and try and crush you before you can fire the PPD again, with makes all the plasma much better (if you just run into 2xG torps and 2xF torps, they do a *lot* of damage with very little effort). The PPD means that you've got good DF against ships that are hard to hurt with just plasmas (see: WAX, Tholian). The ISC has some hard match ups (Orion, Hydran), sure, but in general, it is pretty good against most opponents.
I think the Hydran deserves a bit of a bump up the list. Looking at the statistics at http://home.comcast.net/~rwschirmer/SFBTRv5.pdf, on page 16.
The Hydran has only 3 matchups that have less than a 50 percent chance of winning. The Gorn (46%), ZIN (48%) and WBS (49%). There are 3 other matchups at 50%, and one of those is the HYD itself. Even the ships worst matchups are very winnable.
That's probably why on page 31-32 of the report the ship comes in 3rd on the list of ships most likely to be too strong and unbalanced. I prefer the list in table 30.
1. GBS
2. ZIN
3. HYD
4. WAX
5. ISC
6. GRN
7. RKR
8. KLI
9. ORI
10. AND (I think this is a mistake probably due to the records of the older Kraits that were de sanctioned propping up the ships statistics for the newer dysfunctional Krait.
11. SEL
12. RFH
13. FED
14. RKE
15. LYR
16. THA
17. LDR
18. THN
I think there is no denying that the GBS is the strongest ship all around, but it looks like a few of the ships people rated very highly are only that good in the hands of a few players.
Its interesting that the Seltorian is rated by players gut feelings as one of the worst ships in the tournament yet comes in 11th out of 18, on the "Balance Assessment" table.
Even the worst of the player assessments put the RFH at 11th, but the majority rate it 7th or 8th.
It seems like we all agree that a few of the tournament ships are just weaker than the top ships. In the past tournament ships have been evaluated as too weak and given a boost to improve the tournament.
The top 8 or 9 ships are all pretty good I wouldn't want to see them made worse, but it seems like the very worst ships are so bad they just don't get played.
Anyone have any ideas for tweaking the bottom 6 or 8 ships? We could playtest them and compare the results to what we see in the sanctioned ships.
Its surprising to me that the G Rack Federation is seen as being too strong when everyone rates the Federation as a very challenged ship. I don't think the G rack makes a huge difference but it is something of an improvement against drone users.
Where would you guys put the FRAX and Peledine if you added them to your lists? I think the FRAX in the right hands can be pretty strong possibly as high as 10th, the Peledine I would rate lower than the RKE probably 17th out of 20.
I think you could sanction the FRAX as is and it would be fairly competitive. I wonder if the Peledine couldn't be helped by giving it 2 points of drone speed, or for a much bigger lift swap the G torps for S and leave the drones and phasers alone.
What do you guys think about a larger or smaller pool of sanctioned ships?
Has anyone tried out the CW/CM playtest ships for the other empires? Some of them look fun and I wonder if the LDR wouldn't be more competitive in a field of similarly sized ships. But the Orion and WAX do well enough against the full movement cost 1 tournament ships that they would probably slaughter the competition the way the GBS slaughters everything now.
Josh, as I said in my original post I am looking for peoples opinions, not the Schirmer rankings. Agree, disagree, that is fine.
The Schirmer rankings are a great statistical tool, but not necessarily indicative of how things currently stand. Because they compile stats over many years, if new tactics have changed balances they would not necessarily be reflected in the rankings for years.
Also player skill has to be factored in. Just because someone is ranked as an "Ace" in the stats, doesn't mean that they are skilled in the ships they play in all the tournaments. I played a few tourneys in the ATC (which I stink in 
) and those stats are counted right along players who may not be as good as me in general, but who are better in the ship they are playing.
>>I think the Hydran deserves a bit of a bump up the list.>>
Nah. The Hydran can be strong. And is very effective in the hands of a reasonably good player against a less good player. But it often loses the game on, like, 4 random internals.
>>Its interesting that the Seltorian is rated by players gut feelings as one of the worst ships in the tournament yet comes in 11th out of 18, on the "Balance Assessment" table.>>
The Seltorian is reasonably attrocious. But it had a good run of games in the hands of a very skilled player (Ken Lin) where he did the best he could with what it had. But even then, it is a tough ship to win with. It has some *really* bad match ups. And in the best of situations, it maybe has only a little less than 50% chance of winning.
>>Where would you guys put the FRAX and Peledine if you added them to your lists? I think the FRAX in the right hands can be pretty strong possibly as high as 10th, the Peledine I would rate lower than the RKE probably 17th out of 20. >>
The Peladine is horrible as it currently exists. It has only one viable strategy (anchor attack), and that is an easy strategy to foil if you know it is coming. And if your opponent is the Peladine, it is coming.
I'm unconvinced that the FRAX is good, but some folks seem to think it is.
>>What do you guys think about a larger or smaller pool of sanctioned ships? >>
I'm always of the school of "Get rid of all the Romulans but the TFH; get rid of the Neo Tholian." in the name of fewer options. But that is me.
I think the FRAX is at least as good as the Klingon, and probably as good as the Kzinti (if that's a better ship, in the player's head). On paper, the Frax has only one flaw: The shields it attacks from are it's weakest shields. But it's merits are it's large Phaser array (8 ph-1) and large arcs (able to bring a full alpha out the #2, #3, #5, and #6 arcs). In practice, I've been able to mitigate the weak shield problem by tailoring the attack ranges to what won't pierce the shield (very much). It's permissive (and odd) arcs allow it phenomenal maneuvering ability and allows it to translate that to (usually) choosing which shields to fire at.
The only things i can say about this since i have limited tournament exp. The GBS i think is to powerful. While the G rack on the fed should be standard. The fed as is has one hope jackpot the photons and phasers. The G rack gives it a little bit of help vs both drone using and cloaking ships as well as the esg.
Now to be honest the klingon i think has a good chance of defeating any other ship in the game when played by a Ace rated player but much harder for newer players as the finesse of the ship is challenging.
The GBS is probably too strong, yes. I suspect the easiest fix is just to pull out one of the FX P3s. Which might or might not be too much of a kick in the teeth to the ship. But at least it is easy (and those 5xFX/RX P3s are just kind of absurd, as ships go in the tournament).
We have tried the G-Rack Fed (one specific load out--2xIM, 4xADD, no reloads or SP loading) in various situations, and it certainly doesn't hurt, and usually helps. The one tournament I know it was played in, it won, but that is just as likely that it was Paul that won, and not the G-Rack Fed.
Just out of curiosity, the Borak have a tournament cruiser. By chance is it on SFBonline?
I don't know off hand. Have you looked?
I don't do SFBonline myself, just wondering because noticed mentioning Peladine and Frax ships.
I haven't seen it. If someone wants to put it up, I suppose it's allowed. But the Almighty Steve has said that ANY new ship (including Tourney Ships) have to be in that gawdawful 3rd Gen format.
What is with this lame ass 1-dimensional ship rankings? This is how it's done, boyz!
| . | F | K | R | Z | G | N | O | H | A | L | W | I | E | 6 | T | B | D | S |
| F | 5 | 5 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 9 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 7 | 6 |
| K | 5 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 6 | 3 | 5 | 9 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 6 | 7 | 5 | 7 | 6 |
| R | 7 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 2 | 5 | 5 | 5 |
| Z | 6 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 9 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 8 | 7 |
| G | 7 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 6 |
| N | 4 | 4 | 7 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 3 | 4 | 9 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 8 | 7 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 |
| O | 5 | 7 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 7 | 5 | 6 | 9 | 5 | 6 | 8 | 7 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 7 | 7 |
| H | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 6 | 4 | 5 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 5 |
| A | 1 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 5 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 |
| L | 5 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 |
| W | 7 | 6 | 4 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 6 | 3 | 6 | 7 | 7 |
| I | 8 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 7 | 5 | 2 | 5 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 6 |
| E | 7 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 5 | 7 | 4 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 2 | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| 6 | 7 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 2 | 5 | 5 | 5 |
| T | 6 | 3 | 8 | 5 | 6 | 6 | 4 | 6 | 8 | 6 | 7 | 5 | 8 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 7 | 6 |
| B | 6 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 8 | 7 |
| D | 3 | 3 | 5 | 2 | 4 | 5 | 3 | 4 | 8 | 5 | 3 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 5 | 5 |
| S | 4 | 4 | 5 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 3 | 5 | 8 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 5 | 5 |
|
Oh, and as for suggested tweaks to the bottom ships, old idea here but I think changing the LDR FA phaser-1s to FX would be a very moderate but good upgrade to the LDR. No addition to firepower, just makes the ship more able to fight out of the sides from range, and thus makes it less of a 1-trick pony overrun machine.
I know there are other ships on the bottom that probably also could use an upgrade, but what can I say? I'm a sucker for Bastards, Cripples, and Broken Things. Oh, and for ships with ESGs.
That is some nice chart-mastery you got there. Gold!
The Borak tournament cruiser is on page 76 of module E3.
I wholeheartedly agree that the LDR should get the FA -> FX phaser bump suggested by Mr Lin.
... and not just because I'm the only one flying it in the latest RAT.
-DC
I had an idea...
Since I have a little bit of influence when it comes to the SFB Tournament at Council of Five Nations (coming Oct 10-12 this year), I'm going to request that the Tournament Director, Ken Kazinski, implement this modification for the LDR.
It is time to start collecting playtest data, and this is as good a way as any.
Commander Kazinski, please make it so!
Can you talk to the judge of World League?
I won in the LDR as it is. Tom came in second in the LDR the year I won in the ISC.
It is an under-rated ship in no need of improvement.
Paul,
I get the sense, from reading BBS posts, that a wide selection of the SFB tournament community thinks the LDR is a consistently bottom-five ship and it could use a little bump.
It seems to me that simply modifying the arcs of two Phaser-1s from FA to FX, and not adding any additional firepower or other systems, is a very modest bump.
Since the Council tournament is not sanctioned, we have the freedom to experiment like this. We are happy to embrace this flexibility, and to provide playest data to see if this bump is indeed unbalancing.
If you really think this makes the LDR too strong, please come to Council, fly the LDR, and clear the field!
Hope to see you all this October 10-12.
-DC
Can we get the keeper of the results to post the win / loss ratios?
It would be nice if that table was a link at the top of the topic. Is that possible?
"a wide selection of the SFB tournament community thinks the LDR is a consistently bottom-five ship and it could use a little bump."
A wide selection of Americans (nearly a majority) believe that a god created humans as they exist today less than 10,000 years ago. I would not confuse common belief for expertise or knowledge.
FX p-1s are not going to break the ship. It is ok as is, but changing the arcs is not going to make it the top ship in the tournament. It just seems to me odd to make an improvement on a middle ship rather than tweek some worse off.
Not to cut you off at the toes, Paul, but the Schirmer stats show that the LDR is ranked 17 of 18 and a 60% probability that it is to weak.
On the other hand, There doesn't seem to be any movement by those responsible for changing or adding tournament ships. There has been no movement to add ships from races published in the last decade, we're still stuck with a nerfed Andromedan, and the Fed still doesn't have it's drone rack.