And what does ballistically launched drones accomplish? There are no type-IIIs available for tame boar targeting. It's doubtful the enemy is going to just charge straight into the drones, and flying "across" the planet will quickly reveal drones with ballastic targetin,a nd they will be promptly ignored.

While pulling back will give another turn of fire, at those reanges it won't amount to very much, and the enemy will probably find it a small price to pay to get rid of a drone wave. Shield damage can be reapaired while lingering beyond range.

Quite simply if the enemy shows up with a force that presents any threat what so ever, we will have to entice him into fighting around the planet, under our guns where his range of manuever is limited. This is assuming they are here to capture/raid (which is likely, as the planet isn't developed enough to really make stand off bombardment that worthwhile). If the enemy has the force to do the job, then we will not be able to deter them at range. They will close, and we have to make sure that once they are there they pay for it in steel and blood.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 05:05 pm: Edit

An initial volley of ATG drones from the fighters could prove handy in creating an extending chase. If the OPFOR runs the full 3 turns, the OPFOR would need another 3 turns to close the gap again. Longer we hold, the more likely reinforcements can arrive.

For the Transporter Repeaters, one should not forget that the repeaters won't have any effect after the transporters themselves are destroyed. The 5 transporters located on hex side A can cover B and F without relying on the repeaters. The repeaters are only needed to cover the opposite side of the planet. Unless the OPFOR intends on never firing on the Marine Garrison, once the OPFOR enters range to fire on the bases, the Defense Satellites should commence firing.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit

Major Wells:

There are 22 type-I drone rails on the ten fighters. Half can be ATG drones. Now, starting at WS-III, half the type-I rails can begin loaded with their share of the ATG drones, but the other half are loaded with standard type-I drones. You can have the fighters sit on the ground through Turn #1 (deck crews unloading the 11 rails with type-I drones) and through Turn #2 (deck crews moving the unloaded type-I drones to storage), and through Turn #3 (deck crews moving type-IH drones from storage to the ready racks) and through Turn #4 (deck crews loading type-IH drones from ready racks onto the fighters), have them finally take off on Turn #5, Rise up through the atmosphere on Turn #6, and on Turn #7 finally begin moving in space. And after you have done all of that, you get to launch a wave of 11 type-IH drones, unless the fighters are under remote control, in which case you get to launch all 22.

Now, naturally it is going to take a little less time than that (extra deck crews enter into the equation), so call it five turns. But pretty much it is going to take that five turns to get more than 11 type-IH drones off in the first wave.

If you do not spend that five turns, however, do you really think that 11 type-IH drones are going to be that much of a problem for the attacker? Why would he run for three turns, it is only 11 drones, and he knows they are all type-I (launched by F-16 fighters). Even a squadron of F5s (assuming an F5L and two F5Ks) has nine phaser-1s (to be used if the ADDs fail) and three ADDs (to be used before the phasers) and three tractor beams (to be used if the phasers miss).

If the raider you are trying to beat off is a single cruiser (a reasonable foe to face off against a squadron of mega-fighters), it would have problems, but a squadron of frigates is just going to shrug a drone launch like that off.

And taking the time to arm the fighters entirely with type-IH drones means that the attacker gets a free run at the planet, or faces your fighters piecemeal.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 06:38 pm: Edit

The Above is not to say that Major Wells is not thinking, or even in error, but that fighters take time to unload and reload, and you pay for what is on their rails and ready racks, and you pay at a percentage basis meaning that it takes time to get all the good stuff you want loaded.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 06:51 pm: Edit

SPP: I think you missed my question. Can I buy 4 or 8 extra deck crews?

Also regarding the DefSat orbit through the planet shadow question?
================================
I'm considering internal armor for some drones to be apart of the first or second drone wave. I'm pretty sure others are out. It's the most consistant throw I'm looking for. I don't want to spend options on tricks. I have too few points. (besides, trick drones will be dificult to track over this medium).

No, I'm going for the overall generic, catch all, ready for an unknown threat, Battalion.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:33 pm: Edit

SPP-why take time to unload the first strike?

Option#1. Squadron launches turn 1, deck crews run to magazine and pull next load of munitions in quantities for whole squadron. squadron exits atmosphere.

OPFOR closes on planet at bestspeed, (logical since at this point no drones have been fired yet.) moves from range 101 to range 70 hexes.

Turn#2. Ghostlight squadron launches 11 drones ballistically at geographic hex# on line between present location of OPFOR and squadron location, use a dog leg and intermediate point where drones will arrive at hex 35 hexes from planet that is on a line between OPFOR entry hex and where they are expected to be assuming least distance and time course plot. Ghost light squadron detaches two seater and with 11 F16's return to base to reload.Two seater becomes drone control at point drones reach termination hex described above. Fighter moves at bes speed to keep OPFOR in range of 35. If OPFOR continues on shortest distance course between entry hex and planet two seater can remain near planet, if OPFOR alters course to "dodge back" in effort to cause drones to lose tracking, two seater moves forward to control drones. so long as OPFOR remains within 35 hexes of fighter and the drone wave, drones remain on board and functional. If OPFOR moves on divergent course drones begin stern chase, moving at fast speed (assuming no armor modules have been installed)

If I were the drone control officer, I would pick 11 different hexes for the ballistic termination point, one for each dron to prevent the bunching of all drones into one single hex.

by picking a hex on the line between the OPFOR entry hex and the planet, we have conveniently centered the kill zone intow which the OPFOR would most likely manuver.

It is possible that OPFOR will delay closing on the base, but this is unlikely because there is a time limit in which they could complete the mission safely. there are 3 turns of endurance available for the type I drones.

if the Two seater fighter can keep the OPFOR at range 35 or less, and assuming the OPFOR manuvers in a area centered within 35 hexes of the termination point of the ballistically launched drones after completing the dog leg, there is a good chance that the drones could be effective.

depending on the make up of the OPFOR, the drone control officer may split his fire on all three ships (assuming F5 squadron as previously suggested) or, if one of the ships is a more attractive target than the other ships in the force might warrant all drones targeted on one ship. especially if the OPFOR breaks formation for some reason.

In any event, the rest of the squadron will be rearming while the OPFOR deals with the drone threat.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:36 pm: Edit

Colonel Knight:

You missed the reply. It is up there, it says "yes".

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:45 pm: Edit

SPP-

Understood reference scatter packs range limit 35 hexes and not controlled by fighter.

to be usefull in context of reusing the Adminshuttles must launch no farther than 5 hexes from the planet (so a pilot could be transported aboard.)

The suggestion I would make concering scatter pacts would be to load, and launch at a geographic hex. when the SP arrives there, new course any direction speed '0'.

set to launch drones when OPFOR reaches range 12 set for random targeting size class 5 or larger. (since no friendly forces are of that size would be effective IFF system.)

since the range is 12 hexes, it limits to a certain extent the effectiveness of enemy fire to kill SP prior to blossoming. Since the drone speed is "Fast" the OPFOR will have to deploy counter measures, defensive fire or evasion.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 08:29 pm: Edit

SPP: I'm going batty trying to find your reply to:

Your ships are still 30+ hexes away and I have my DefSat (just one for this inquirey) launch it's drones. It is then revieled to the enemy but shortly after moves BEHIND the planet. When it reemerges is there still a lock-on or can it resume hidden status? This of corse assumes the drone control was assumed by another unit and the planet did infact cover the view of all enemy units.

And my other question was multiple choice. (4 extra Deck Crews or 8 (4 for each FGB-S)?) Please accept my appologies for my apperant denseness but could you help me out here? I can't find where your answer could be in the posts after I asked the question and I can't really determine the meaning of just "Yes" in this case. Again, sorry, I want to be sure of the situation before I commit to a tactic.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 08:32 pm: Edit

SPP: Also, to be clear for myself and all the others, we are starting with the Unkown Force at 101 hexes and the base at WS0, correct?

I figure that's why you started at 101 hexes. Or do I have the chance to go to alert status when the news about whatever comes in?

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 10:31 pm: Edit

SPP: I am corrected as to the number of ATGs available. I still find having the opponent deal with some of the drones better than having all the drones rendered ineffective from excessive range.

Maj. Wile: You may have missed it but shuttles can dock with other shuttles so scatterpacks need not stop at 5 hexes. Does take longer to recycle than with transporter usage.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 11:10 pm: Edit

Maj Wells: I know, but 5 hex range from the planet puts the shuttles 1 turn form entering atmosphere. Its just a happy coincidence that also allows transport into the shuttles after they discourge the drone load.

I suspect the common ground we all are looking for is to develope a "synergy" between all the various defenses available to the 429th. for instance, if the scatter packs are within 5 hexes of planet, and launch drones at OPFOR, one thing that could happen is OPFOR ship dropping sheild to deploy transporter bomb to defeat the drone stack. such is good opening for ground base phaser 4 shot into down sheild also known as "BANG!"...(oh lay off guys! I can dream about it, ok!)

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 11:42 pm: Edit

Jeff, if the SP releases at range 5 from the planet, it will take more than one turn to get back after the pilot is aboard, unless it has its warp packs on (which makes it much more vulnerable).

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 05:03 am: Edit

Re: Scatterpacks,

I think they will have to be launched at speed one. To exit atmosphere and won't be able to accelerate. I doubt we will have time to reload them before the action is over one way or the other. Getting the shuttle back for ground action might be very important however.

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 05:07 am: Edit

Re: Drone "tricks"
Col Loren with due respect I don't think we can afford to miss any tricks that increase our chances in the space battle. You have been asiduous in using all the options available to us for ground combat. I ask that you reconsider your descision not to do the same for our drones.
It is a triffling cost. 0.5 for ATG, O.5 for swordfish and nothing for armour.

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 05:35 am: Edit

Re: Standoff drone launches

Jeff Wilie Sorry I didn't mean to come across as confrontational. Just trying to show that long range drones are likely to be a niussance rather than descisive. Not that we shouldn't try and use them.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 05:51 am: Edit

With our rather slow launch rate, and medium drone control, I do not see how "strange drone tricks" will get us much.

I do like the idea of using Internal Armor to some extent. It is free and unlimited. But I do not think we should over do it.

Paying good money for a few ATG will not get us much, and the random swordfish will not be able to beat a Klingon(or Orion) drone defense.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 09:21 am: Edit

Alex: yes, I am aware that it takes time for shuttles and fighters to enter and leave atmosphere. The pointI was trying to make was if the Scattter pack is at range 12 it would take a shuttle without warp pods 2 turns just to reach the edge of the atmosphere before it could actually start descent. 5 hexes would get a shuttle to the edge of the atmosphere in a single turn and the descent could begin at that point of the turn sequence and not have to wait a further 32 impulses.

As was noted elsewhere, the battle for Cassandra IV could be already decided it we followed your plan. I submit, getting the shuttle back to base and reactivated for other duties gets the 429th 'more bang for the buck' so to speak, by beinag able to use the Admin shuttles for more than just a single mission.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 09:37 am: Edit

Paul Stovell:

keep in mind that the scenario (at present anyway) starts at range 101 hexes. it would take 1 turn for the scatter pack to arrive at point able (5 hexes from the planet) (after leaving atmosphere) and commence its speed '0' movement waiting for OPFOR to close within 12 hexes. The OPFOR, as has already been discussed in this thread will require 3 1/3 turns to approach the planet (assumming it maintains max tactical speed of 31 hexes per turn.)

If we assume that 2 scatter packs are available at start (one from each small fighter base) and the drones from the fighter squadron plus any fired from the DEF SAT (depending on Col Loren Releasing them for use in the appraoch battle), and limited by the 30 available control channels (42 if Ground Warning Stations are pressed into service) I arrive at a potential 45 drones give or take depending on actual circumstances.

(the circumstances that modify the issue is if fighters control their own drones or not, if the 2 seater F16 participates in controlling drones from the squadron, wheither the fighters launch with pilots or without and if any other shuttles from the other ground bases are forwarded to the fighter bases to have drones loaded for additional scatter packs.) (the last point would only pertain if a 2nd drone launch were programed or if the fighters go "to ground" and the ground battle begins.

One other factor that has not been discussed is if the supply of Admin shuttles are used in fighter roll or not, the phaser 3's in sufficient quantities may be a significant factor. That is a point for Col Knight to decide.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 09:54 am: Edit

Christopher E Fant: It is precisely because of the low drone rates that there is discussion of scatter packs and other means to increase the strngth of the drone wave. this would represent our "surge ability" up to the max of 42 drones , the upper limit of our available control channels, modified by how the fighters are depolyed.

Please understand, if the drones are not used in the approach battle, the chances of using the drone stock pile drops prcipitous ly as the OPFOR will kill the fighters and shuttles as a priority target. He must as asside from the ground bases themselves, the 429th has no other effective means of dealing with the OPFOR.

Chris, we have 100 drone spaces in the stock pile. Its a 'use'em or lose'em' proposition.

My vote is to use them in hopes of getting some early damage on the OPFOR. I will oppose any effort to ignore the OPFOR until they deploy the landing force in hopes of defeating them on the planet thus rendering the OPFOR mission mute.

Secondly, you are forgeting the other possible mission profiles available to the OPFOR commander, instead of invading Cassandra IV he could engage in a 'drive by shooting' and concentrate on orbital bombardment in a harrassment type mission.

we have to be prepared for more than just a ground war.

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:06 am: Edit

Jeff,

One rules point.
ONLY the admins stationed at the FGB-S can be used as scatterpacks if I remember the rules correctly.

In general. The problem with launching a significant drone wave early is I think our fighters will either be rearming or in the atmosphere when OPFOR makes its first close pass.

launch turn1(not possible I suspect)
enter atmosphere imp32
turn2 in atmosphere
turn3 land on impulse 32
turn4 rearm and if only adding one space launch before 32
turn5 armed in atmosphere over a FGB
turn6 loose in space.

If the fighters launch drones turn 2 then they won't be rearmed until turn 5 and so on.

As I see it the options are.
1.Make a drone launch as OPFOR approach. By neccessity type-I's and then land to rearm,
the fighters unavailable during OPFORS first close range pass.
2.Make drone launch as 1. but stay out of atmosphere to threaten run in with gatlings.
Hope to get a chance to rearm later.
3.Pootle about preferably with planet between themselves and OPFOR until/if OPFOR attempt to attack the ground bases. Then pop round planet and try and force the issue.

I think Col Loren is in favour of 3. and I second this. The ground bases can't be engaged from outside range 5 and it will be tricky(sadly not impossible) for OPFOR to get within range 5 of the planet and keep the fighters at range 3+

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:14 am: Edit

I agree with Paul that option 3 is our best bet. long range drone bombardment and ph-4 sniping will not deter anything that presents a credible threat. Yes, it may make an E4 or LR decide to look for greener pastures, but anything will enough force to threaten the planet itself will be able able to handle any long-range drone strikes. We must overload their defenses, which means swamping them with drones as they come in under our guns for their attack run, not before.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:37 am: Edit

Jeff W. We have 200 drone spaces in the stock pile. (100 each FGB-S).

I will be buying a half load of armored drones. Each fighter will have 1 x 6 + armor and 1 x 6 + 6 warheads.

Waves will be mixed types.

Swordfish: It has not been my experience that these provide good effect except in space battles between two ships that a crippled (then they rock!). If I could buy a lot of them for an entire wave...maybe. But I can't.

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:39 am: Edit

Compromise variation

If WSIII the four CAP F16M can move out and engage OPFOR. They can probably launch 4 drones on turn 2 and 4 more on turn 3 ending turn 3 in atmosphere. Land at end of turn 4 and rearmed with a type-I and a type-VI back in the atmosphere at the end of turn 5.
Free of atmosphere on turn 7.
Fighters in the right half can launch drones from atmosphere during turn 3 and land at the end of turn. They may then rearm and take-off on turn 4.
Atmosphere on 5 and out on 6. The remaining 4 fighters rely on a turn 4 drone launch when ideally out Scatterpacks blossom and are our only gatling threat to a close pass.

Turn Drones that turn cumulative total
1 0 0
2 4 4
3 8+8a 12+8a
4 12SP 4+4 28+12
5 4-8+4-8 36-40+16-20
Note a=type-VI drones marginal choice depends on OPFPRs approach speed.
turns 6+ probably have 4+4 "sustainable" launch rate as long as fighters and FGB-S survive.

Compare this to "lurk and scoot"
turn 1-3 none
turn 4 12SP 12+12
turn 5 12+12

These figures ignore EWF
Through put upto turn 5 are about the same. lurking get the biggest concentration.

The Wilie approach gets most drones onto the fighters and will get more drones in flight after turn 5 as rearming can't begin for the lurker until turn 7 and rearming will be slow as they are completely out of drones.

It gives up the chance of driving off OPFOR in one pass but perhaps is a better bet in the long run.

I think neither approach is de facto better IMHO. It will just influence the way OPFOR plays.

My guestimate.
Wilie lose a base on turn 4 but maybe slower than the lurking approach.
Lurkers maywell force the OpFPR to turn off without hitting a base on turn 4 but unless they risk getting the fighters killed in detail won't have any threat on end of turn 6 beginning of 7 and will proabbly lose two bases then.

Ah enough of these hypotheticals. I'll have to log on from home later and see how this is going later.

Paul

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:41 am: Edit

Let me get this straight (not arguing, just want to clarify):

You want to voluntarily let the OPFOR close to the planet to within 5 hexes unopposed.

You expect to overload the defenses with one drone strike.

You expect the fighter wing to hide behind the planet and deliver a devastating close range phaser gatling attack on the unsuspecting OPFOR that obligingly lets you close to the most advantageous range (for YOUR fighters, not his).

and you expect that the OPFOR will allow your fighters to land and reload inorder to again deliver a drone and phaser 3 attack without attempting to eliminate the Fighter ground bases that support the fighters?

While you may expect an inexperienced and trusting neophyte player to be so obliging to you, may I suggest that since the OPFOR will be under the immediate supervision and control or an experienced and pragmatic commander, it is unlikely in the extreme that this exercise will follow your script.

Perhaps you are correct and resistance is futile.

If that is the case maybe we do need to arrange for a Prime team interaction...to offer the CO of OPFOR a suitible bribe to just go away. If he is an "honest politician" it might work. More likely he will take the bribe and blow away the planet anyway!