Archive through March 25, 2014
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Triangulum Module:
Archive through March 25, 2014
As noted in the Omega Q&A thread, there were a few questions I had regarding the logistics involved when certain atypical empires for whom a captured planet's target populace itself is the prize to be won.
In M33, there are two major empires for which this is a seriosu concern: the Arachnid Worlds of Union and the Mallaran Empire. While both have a ticking clock to watch out for in their respective R-sections, the actual mechanics of how their respective needs are met might need to be hammered out at some point.
In the case of the Arachnids, they are noted as starting off with assimilating captured Aloola (and other) planets en masse, until learning to more carefully husband their would-be host populations in order to avoid burning out too many of them all at once.
But given the limitations of commando ships and bulk transports, how do they get enough Arachnids to a world in order to begin the process, let alone do go fast as to overwhelm an entire major industrial planet? (How long do unattached Arachnids live without a host? Do they need to be kept in stasis? And are they treated as being any more or less expendable than Arachnids who are attached to hosts?)
And how do they keep the populace compliant enough to not resist assimilation? The normal threats of orbital bombardment might be less effective in this case, when the locals may rather die than be assimilated (and when the Arachnids need as many warm bodies as possible).
But on the other hand, given the kind of population size one would find on a major indutstrial world, exactly how many hosts would even need to be taken in order to both maintain a stable populace and to support the Arachnids' own needs? (Again, the transport bottlenecks make it severely impractical to ferry large numbers of new hosts to a depopulated world, which could pose all sorts of logistical headaches for what is supposed to be a large and powerful star empire.)
Given how short a host's lifespan can be, I have trouble picturing exactly how it is the Worlds of Union manages to operate - unless some sort of adjustment needs to be made as to exactly how the process of assimilation works.
And as for the Mallareans, they have a problem of their own - the need to harvest captured populaces in order to feed the Overmind's insatiable need for new genetic stock for use in the cloning program.
It is noted that many pre-warp species were culled from existence during the Empire's early expansion, while a Quegan colony became infamous for its "genetic research centre".
But, as with the Arachnids, the actual logistics involved might be a problem.
Even a pre-spaceflight planet could have a population in the billions - and since they are facing extinction as a species anyway, they would be highly motivated to resist any ground occupation (or die trying, which itself denies the Mallarans their prize).
How do the Mallarans manage to use up their conquered planets so quickly, to the point where they need to feed more types of alien DNA into the mix?
(Perhaps, rather than try to capture every last member of a target species, there are only so many geneic samples they can use in Overmind's cloning program? Say, that no more than 10,000 varieties of a given species' DNA is actually usable before the law of diminishing returns kicks in. That would keep the logistical demands of each harvesting operation to a more manageable level, while allowing the Mallarans to treat any "excess" locals as expendable.)
Both empires have a compelling expand-or-die dynamic, or at least are supposed to in order to highlight the desperation driving their respective actions. But I wonder if one or both empires might need to have a few adjustments made here or there, in order to make sure that these actions still fit within a SFU-viable logistical framework.
Gary Carney asks on Sunday, 15 December 2013: As noted in the Omega Q&A thread, there were a few questions I had regarding the logistics involved when certain atypical empires for whom a captured planet's target populace itself is the prize to be won.
In M33, there are two major empires for which this is a serious concern: the Arachnid Worlds of Union and the Mallaran Empire. While both have a ticking clock to watch out for in their respective R-sections, the actual mechanics of how their respective needs are met might need to be hammered out at some point.
In the case of the Arachnids, they are noted as starting off with assimilating captured Aloola (and other) planets en masse, until learning to more carefully husband their would-be host populations in order to avoid burning out too many of them all at once.
But given the limitations of commando ships and bulk transports, how do they get enough Arachnids to a world in order to begin the process, let alone do go fast as to overwhelm an entire major industrial planet? (How long do unattached Arachnids live without a host? Do they need to be kept in stasis? And are they treated as being any more or less expendable than Arachnids who are attached to hosts?)
REPLY: Again, as in the Omega topic, this basically works as normal conquest after the Aloola. The Arachnids do not have to "assimilate" the entire population, and doing so is counter-productive. They only need to eliminate the ability to effectively resist, and force the population to go back to work in the factories. It is a captured and garrisoned planet like any other. Assimilating the entire population means no new hosts at some future date, and they learned that lesson with the Aloola. Sure, starship crews are all assimilated personnel, and the Arachnids by their nature do not require "star fleet academies," they only need a selection process that forces some percentage of a given population to be provided as converts for replacement.
Gary Carney asks on Sunday, 15 December 2013: And how do they keep the populace compliant enough to not resist assimilation? The normal threats of orbital bombardment might be less effective in this case, when the locals may rather die than be assimilated (and when the Arachnids need as many warm bodies as possible).
REPLY: I do not know how an alien species would react to such a situation, but human societies generally adjust to providing the overlords what they want and hope that they, themselves, can avoid the worst consequences. Has been so all through history. That is why the people in a city might throw open the gates and give their own soldiers over to slaughter by the Mongols in hopes the Mongols will not slaughter them. While it is popular to assume that "free peoples will fight to the death rather than be enslaved," history rather shows the reverse, and large percentages of populations choose to live as slaves rather than die fighting for freedom. Now, they might later revolt, and their sons and daughters might revolt. (The Russians, for example, revolted against the rule of the Golden Horde repeatedly before they finally succeeded, and most of those revolts were savagely suppressed in part as examples to others of the consequences of revolting.)
Gary Carney asks on Sunday, 15 December 2013: But on the other hand, given the kind of population size one would find on a major industrial world, exactly how many hosts would even need to be taken in order to both maintain a stable populace and to support the Arachnids' own needs? (Again, the transport bottlenecks make it severely impractical to ferry large numbers of new hosts to a depopulated world, which could pose all sorts of logistical headaches for what is supposed to be a large and powerful star empire.)
REPLY: And again the game background pretty much says that a relatively small garrison is enough to control a planet. There is an assumed difference in the level of military technology and what the man on the street can get. In olden days the peasants were pretty much armed at the same level as he military, albeit the military was better trained. And when properly motivated and equipped even the peasants could take down armored knights. But the military today has tanks, aircraft, and heavy artillery.
Gary Carney asks on Sunday, 15 December 2013: Given how short a host's lifespan can be, I have trouble picturing exactly how it is the Worlds of Union manages to operate - unless some sort of adjustment needs to be made as to exactly how the process of assimilation works.
REPY: Given a large enough population base to work from, the limited number of bodies actually need to administer an empire can be provided from a viable population density without depleting said population. No change is needed.
Gary Carney asks on Sunday, 15 December 2013: And as for the Mallareans, they have a problem of their own - the need to harvest captured populaces in order to feed the Overmind's insatiable need for new genetic stock for use in the cloning program.
It is noted that many pre-warp species were culled from existence during the Empire's early expansion, while a Quegan colony became infamous for its "genetic research centre."
REPLY: Which again should tell you there was a learning curve an the Overmind has learned not to completely deplete its source of "spare parts" to keep things going.
Gary Carney asks on Sunday, 15 December 2013: But, as with the Arachnids, the actual logistics involved might be a problem.
Even a pre-spaceflight planet could have a population in the billions - and since they are facing extinction as a species anyway, they would be highly motivated to resist any ground occupation (or die trying, which itself denies the Mallarans their prize).
REPLY: And again, you do not need a large garrison to control a planet given the disparity between the combat power of "the real military" and what is available to a civilian population once the military is destroyed.
Gary Carney asks on Sunday, 15 December 2013: How do the Mallarans manage to use up their conquered planets so quickly, to the point where they need to feed more types of alien DNA into the mix?
REPLY: You are mis-reading things. They do not have to kill and absorb everyone they meet, only enough to feed the system.
Gary Carney asks on Sunday, 15 December 2013: (Perhaps, rather than try to capture every last member of a target species, there are only so many genetic samples they can use in Overmind's cloning program? Say, that no more than 10,000 varieties of a given species' DNA is actually usable before the law of diminishing returns kicks in. That would keep the logistical demands of each harvesting operation to a more manageable level, while allowing the Mallarans to treat any "excess" locals as expendable.)
REPLY: Yes, see above answers.
Gary Carney asks on Sunday, 15 December 2013: Both empires have a compelling expand-or-die dynamic, or at least are supposed to in order to highlight the desperation driving their respective actions. But I wonder if one or both empires might need to have a few adjustments made here or there, in order to make sure that these actions still fit within a SFU-viable logistical framework.
REPLY: No, that is you reading into things. Both empires are given as "stable." They do not have to be continuously at war or they will die. They are quite capable of negotiating and biding their time for opportune moments. Thus their internal exploitation of available resources (whether those to assimilate or those to rip the DNA from) is handled for the good of the respective empires.
SPP:
Thanks for the further clarifications.
In the case of the Arachnids, I was partly wondering about how the logistical issues imposed by their hosts' short life spans affected their navy's ability to carry out certain missions.
For example, if the Arachnids were to be given a survey cruiser at some point, would they have to plan out a "five-year mission" in such a way that they would ensure regular stops at allied worlds, from which they could replenish their crews as older ones die off? (Or, if they were sent further away from their support network, to expect to raid enemy ships or colonies for the same purpose?)
And in the case of the Mallarans, I had been concerned at the part where only a certain number of generations can be created from a given DNA sample before the procedure becomes unviable.
While this limitation compelled the Overmind to acquire a host of new samples from subjugated alien species, my concern was that the same principle might have been in play there. That each new sample taken from a given subject planet would only have been good for another couple of generations, until they too were considered worthless to the cloning program.
(But then, I hadn't considered that these subject species would likely still be fertile enough to naturally create new generations' worth of fresh samples to extract, which the Mallaran "home" species can no longer do by themselves.)
So I suppose I needn't have worried too much about how stable the Empire would be, after it went through its process of maturation as a star-faring entity.
Gary Carney:
A look at the published map in Module E2 shows the Worlds of Union completely surrounded by other empires, so even if they have a 'survey ship' it is never going to be very far from the resources of the Arachnid Empire. There is no "exploration zone" and there is no likelihood that I can see (from available background) that any of the surrounding empires are going to "lease" an exploration zone to the Arachnids like the Lyrans did the Klingons.
Now, yes it might be that in Federation & Empire terms there will be no such thing as "orphaned/adopted" Arachnid ships (or maybe they can only operate as such for a few game turns and if not reconnected to the Arachnid supply grid the "host" empire gets the ships as if it was "captured" or as just "scrap"). And Arachnid "expeditionary fleets" might have more restrictions (perhaps they have to be supported by one "Strategic Movement Point" per such fleet reflecting the rapid movement of replacement crews, or perhaps the gaining empire pays an "economic point" reflecting that it is providing the Arachnid ships with "condemned prisoners" to be converted into crewmen by the Arachnids. (Maybe a "moral empire" allied to the Arachnids even if only temporarily pays double the economic cost reflecting having to deal with internal stresses by its citizenry being aghast at the government doing such a thing.)
These are things that can be worked out when a "strategic Federation & Empire" game module for the Triangulum galaxy is done. For now, I just do not see this as a issue needing more resolution.
SPP:
Historically, I was thinking of the Arachnids' presence in the Khartax Free Zone, which seems to be the closest thing to a "neutral zone" (save for the str systems there which are held by the native Corsair member planets) in M33.
But as you say, it's a subject that can be put aside for another time.
Thanks for your time and patience here and in the Omega Q&A thread.
Gary Carney:
And, again, referring to the map, the Khartx Free Zone directly borders the Worlds of Union, so they are not that far from their sources of supply. It is not like having Worlds of Union ships in "The Imperium" fighting the "Star League." Or in the "Sunfire Khanate" fighting the "Demony Alliance."
SPP:
In that case, I'll leave the matter be until or unless a reason to ask about it emerges at some point. Thanks again.
Hi everyone,
Mr. Petrick explanation is right on the money, they both have learn (the Overmind of the Mallaran and the WOU) from their early mistake and only take what is needed and won't depleted the capture colony or non-space travelling planet they conquered.
Hi Francois. Here is a summary of the first Azary Haven vs Lyran Playtest Duel. This battle will be included in my official playtest report, along with a couple of other battles.
During Turn 1, both ships zoomed toward each other. With almost reckless abandon, both ships wanted to deliver their "big damage" weapons: the ESGs for the Lyran and the Lance Torpedoes for the Azary Haven.
Turn 2 revealed what each ship was capable of. At Range 4, the Azary Haven CA fired its overloaded Ruptor Guns, its Proton Pulse Emitters and its Shield Degenerator Bomb. The Azary Haven CA blasted through the Lyran's #1 Shield and scored some solid Internals. In addition, the Azary Haven was able to launch two Lance Torpedoes at the Lyran CA from close range.
The Lyran CA fired back with overloaded Disruptors and PH-1s, but it had to use several PH-1s to destroy one Lance Torpedo and one ESG to destroy the other Lance Torpedo. The Lyran CA succeeded in bringing down the Azary Haven CA's #1 Shield, but only scored a few Internals.
On Turn 3, the Lyran CA knew he had a temporary advantage because the Azary Haven CA had to rearm its Shield Degenerator Bomb and Ruptor Guns. In addition, the Lance Torpedoes were no longer in arc.
So the Lyran CA performed a High Energy Turn (to bring its FA weapons to bear) and fired overloaded Disruptors and PH-1s at the rear side of the Azary Haven CA. Shield #4 collapsed and the Azary Haven CA took serious Internals.
During the rest of Turn 3, the Azary Haven CA tried to circle around to get a shot at the Lyran CA's Down #1 Shield, but the Lyran CA performed Tactical Maneuvers to keep it away.
Turn 4 was the deciding turn, because the Azary Haven CA had rearmed its Ruptor Guns, had its Lance Torpedoes in arc, and now had a fresh #6 Shield facing the Lyran CA. The Azary Haven CA swooped in for the kill.
The Lyran CA fired its available weapons (not enough to penetrate the Azary Haven CA's fresh #6 Shield), shot down the incoming Lance Torpedo, and then performed a second High Energy Turn (no breakdown) to protect its Down #1 Shield and #2 Shield with only 2 boxes left. From Range 1, the Azary Haven CA destroyed the Lyran CA's #6 Shield and delivered massive Internals.
The battle was over for the Lyran CA. The Azary Haven CA was the Victor.
Please see the Notes/Suggestions/Conclusions section at the bottom.
AZARY HAVEN CA (with Y120, Y154 REFITS) vs LYRAN CA (BPV 148 WITH PLUS, PHASER, MECH LINKS, UIM REFITS) PLAYTEST DUEL #1:
TURN 1
The Azary Haven CA is moving fast. The Lyran CA is moving at medium speed.
Lyran fires 4 standard Disruptors at Range 19. 2 points of damage are absorbed by reinforcement.
TURN 2
Both ships are approaching each other at a slight angle. They are 10 Hexes apart.
The Lyran CA is moving at medium speed. The Azary Haven CA is moving slow.
Azary Haven launches 2 regular Lance Torpedoes, Speed 16.
Azary Haven fires 1 Shield Degenerator Bomb at Range 7. The Shield Degenerator Bomb hits for 8 impulses.
Lyran takes 1 point of damage to all shields, except Shield #1, which absorbs the point of damage through reinforcement.
Lyran takes 1 point of damage to all shields, except Shield #1, which absorbs the point of damage through reinforcement.
Lyran takes 1 point of damage to all shields, except Shield #1, which absorbs the point of damage through reinforcement.
Lyran takes 1 point of damage to all shields.
Lyran takes 1 point of damage to all shields.
Lyran CA activates 2 ESGs, Radius 0, 5 points of energy.
Lyran takes 1 point of damage to all shields.
Lyran fires 4 PH-1s at 1 Lance Torpedo at Range 1. They score 16 points of damage and the Lance Torpedo is destroyed.
Azary Haven fires 4 overloaded Ruptor Guns at Range 4. All 4 Ruptor Guns hit and 36 damage is applied to Shield #1. Shield #1 collapses. The Lyran CA takes 6 Internals.
Azary Haven fires 3 P1Ds and 1 P2E through Down #1 Shield. Lyran CA takes 23 More Internals.
Lyran CA takes 29 Internals Total.
Lyran CA loses 3 PH-1s, 1 ESG, 1 Bridge, 2 Impulse, 5 Warp Engines, and 1 FLAG.
1 ESG Deactivates!
Lyran fires 4 overloaded Disruptors at Range 4. 16 points of damage is applied to Shield #1. After subtracting reinforcement, 15 points of damage is marked off Shield #1.
Lyran fires 5 PH-1s at Range 4. 16 points of damage is applied to Shield #1. Shield #1 collapses. The Azary Haven CA takes 7 Internals.
Azary Haven loses 1 FH Neutronium Armor.
Lyran takes 1 point of damage to all shields.
Azary Haven turns away.
Lance Torpedo impacts ESG. The Lance Torpedo takes 16 damage and is destroyed. The ESG has 4 points left.
Lyran takes 1 point of damage to all shields.
Azary Haven fires 1 P1A at Range 2 through Down Shield #1. Lyran CA takes 1 Internal.
Lyran CA loses 1 AUX.
Azary Haven CA turns again and the Lyran CA is now is in the Azary Haven's Rear Arc.
Azary Haven fires 2 P1As at Range 1. 6 points of damage are marked off Shield #2.
Lyran CA Overruns Azary Haven CA from behind!
ESG does 4 points of damage to Shield #4. The ESG deactivates.
Both ships turn away from each other.
At this point in the Duel, the Lyran CA has No Shield #1. The Lyran CA has taken 8 points of damage to Shield #6, 8 points of damage to Shield #5, 8 points of damage to Shield #4, 8 points of damage to Shield #3, and 14 points of damage to Shield #2.
The Lyran CA has lost 3 PH-1s, 1 ESG, 1 Bridge, 2 Impulse, 5 Warp Engines, and 1 FLAG.
The Azary Haven CA has No Shield #1. The Azary Haven CA taken 1 point of damage to its FH Neutronium Armor and 4 points of damage to Shield #4.
TURN 3
The Lyran CA is facing Direction E. The Azary Haven CA is facing Direction C. They are 4 Hexes apart.
The Lyran CA is not moving. The Azary Haven CA is moving at medium speed.
The Lyran CA performs a High Energy Turn. There is No Breakdown.
Lyran fires 4 overloaded Disruptors at Range 4. 32 points of damage are applied to Shield #4. After subtracting reinforcement, Shield #4 collapses. The Azary Haven CA takes 17 Internals.
Lyran fires 7 PH-1s at Range 4 through the Down #4 Shield. The Azary Haven CA takes another 29 Internals.
The Azary Haven CA takes 46 Total Internals.
The Azary Haven CA loses 9 Warp Engines, 2 Impulse, 2 APR, 4 Batteries, 2 Ruptor Guns, 1 Lance Torpedo, 2 P1As, 1 P1D, 1 AUX, and all of its RH Neutronium Armor.
Azary Haven fires 1 P1D at Range 4. 6 points of damage are marked off Shield #2.
Azary Haven fires 1 P1D at Range 5 through Down Shield #1. The Lyran CA takes 4 Internals.
The Lyran CA loses 1 Impulse, 2 APR.
The Lyran CA uses Reserve Power to perform Tactical Maneuvers.
The Lyran CA's Down #1 Shield is now away from the Azary Haven CA.
The Azary Haven CA is circling so that it can fire through the Lyran's Down #1 Shield.
The Lyran CA uses Reserve Power to perform Tactical Maneuvers.
The Lyran CA's Down #1 Shield is now away from the Azary Haven CA.
Azary Haven fires 1 P1D at Range 7. 2 points of damage are marked off Shield #3.
At this point in the Duel, the Azary Haven CA has No Shield #1 and No RH Neutronium Armor. The Azary Haven CA has taken 1 point of damage to its FH Neutronium Armor.
The Azary Haven CA has lost 9 Warp Engines, 2 Impulse, 2 APR, 4 Batteries, 2 Ruptor Guns, 1 Lance Torpedo, 2 P1As, 1 P1D, and 1 AUX.
The Lyran CA has No Shield #1. The Lyran CA has taken 20 points of damage to Shield #2, 10 points of damage to Shield #3, 8 points of damage to Shield #4, 8 points of damage to Shield #5, and 8 points of damage to Shield #6.
The Lyran CA has lost 3 PH-1s, 1 ESG, 1 Bridge, 3 Impulse, 5 Warp Engines, 1 FLAG, and 2 APR.
TURN 4
The Lyran CA is facing Direction F. The Azary Haven CA is facing Direction E. They are 4 Hexes apart.
THE REST OF TURN 4...
The Lyran CA has 27 Total Power remaining. The Lyran still has 4 Disruptors and 7 PH-1s.
The Azary Haven CA has 25 Total Power. The Azary Haven still has 2 Ruptor Guns, 1 Lance Torpedo, 1 Shield Degenerator Bomb, 2 P1Ds, 1 P2E, and 2 P1As.
The Azary Haven CA is swooping around to close on the Lyran CA.
Azary Haven launches 1 Lance Torpedo, Speed 16.
The Lyran CA has to fire at a distance because its weapons will be out of arc after it performs a High Energy Turn.
The Lyran fires 5 PH-1s at Lance Torpedo, destroying it.
The Lyran fires 4 standard Disruptors and 2 PH-1s at Range 4. They hit the Azary Haven's fresh #6 Shield and FH Neutronium Armor. The Disruptors and PH-1s are not enough to cause Internals.
The Lyran CA performs another High Energy Turn to keep its #2 Shield (with only 2 boxes remaining) and its Down #1 Shield away from the Azary Haven. There is No Breakdown.
Azary Haven fires 2 overloaded Ruptor Guns at Range 1. 24 points of damage is applied to Shield #6. Shield #6 collapses. Lyran CA takes 10 Internals.
Azary Haven fires 2 P1Ds, 1 P2E, 2 P1As at Range 1 though Down Shield #6. Lyran CA takes 33 More Internals.
The Lyran CA takes 43 Internals Total.
At this point, the Lyran CA is Crippled.
The Azary Haven CA is Victorious!
** Note: If the Lyran CA did not perform a second High Energy Turn, the Lyran CA would have taken all the damage on its #2 Shield, which only had 2 boxes left. This would have caused even more Internals to the Lyran CA. Either way (High Energy Turn or Not), the Lyran CA would have lost.
Captain Silverclaw of the Azary Haven CA-Harpy screeches, "Little Kitties are no match for Big Birdies!"
NOTES/SUGGESTIONS/CONCLUSIONS
1) The Shield Degenerator Bomb Rules should clarify that the SDB does damage over Consecutive Impulses (meaning one impulse after another impulse). The Rules state that damage is done for X impulses, but not specify that each impulse is back to back. It is just implied or assumed. A small point, but one worth clarifying so it does not cause any confusion.
2) The Shield Degenerator Bomb Rules should state how the weapon interacts with:
a) Sigvirion's Seventh Shield
b) Armor in general. What does the SDB do to a Romulan Warbird with Armor? Or the Jindarian Rock Armor?
c) Magellanic Inner Shields
d) Ryn Ceramic Armor
e) Branthodon Body
3) The Shield Degenerator Bomb Rules need to clarify how the weapon interacts with General Reinforcement. Also with Specific Reinforcement.
4) The Lance Torpedo Rules and SSD need to clarify the firing arcs for the Lance Torpedo. There are 4 Conflicting pieces of information:
a) Under (FDN103.14) it says that Lance Silos have a launching arc of 360 degrees.
b) Under (FDN103.21) it says the Lance Firing Arc must always be FA (in the Forward Arc).
c) On the Azary Haven CA SSD it says L LR next to LAN #1 (Lance #1) and R RR next to LAN #2 (Lance #2).
d) Under (FDN103.51) it says Lance Torpedoes are treated as Drones in every respect. But Drones can only be launched in the FA (Forward Arc).
5) The Azary Haven CA SSD or R-Section should clarify what type of Lance Torpedo Launch Silo it has.
(FDN103.11) states that a Lance Torpedo Launch Silo Type A has 4 Spaces and 1 Reload. It also states that a Lance Torpedo Launch Silo Type B has 8 Spaces and 1 Reload.
On the Azary Haven CA SSD, we have what looks like a Type B Lance Torpedo Launch Silo. But it could also be a Type A Lance Torpedo Launch Silo. There are 8 Boxes for both Lance Torpedoes. Putting some letters on the SSD near the Lance Torpedoes or adding a clear note in the R-Section should fix this.
6) Under (FDN103.3) it states that the Regular Lance Torpedo has Size=4. We understood this to mean that the Azary Haven CA could only carry 1 Regular Lance Torpedo in each Rack with only 1 Reload. Is this correct?
The Rules under this section should include a few examples that show possible combinations of Lance Torpedoes in different types of Lance Torpedo Launch Racks. This will help to avoid confusion.
7) We recommend that the Lance Torpedo Rules state the BPV for each Lance/Pike Torpedo, in addition to all the other information. SFB Players are used to purchasing different types of Drones based on BPVs. Your Rules seem to imply (it is not clearly stated) that the Azary Haven player just picks what Lance/Pike Torpedoes he wants to use based on Size/Space. Is this right? BPV should be used to determine what the ship is carrying into battle.
8) The Shield Degenerator Bomb Cool Down period should be clarified in the Rules along with an example. There is some conflicting information.
a) Under (EN112.21) it states that Shield Degenerator Bombs can be fired every turn.
b) Under (EN112.21) it states that Shield Degenerator Bombs have a 12 impulse delay between 2 turns.
c) SFB players are used to an 8 impulse delay when dealing with weapon fire at the end of one turn and the beginning of a new turn.
d) The Azary Haven CA SSD says "Need to Cool Down for 2 Turns after firing".
e) So can the SDB:
I) fire every turn with no delay
II) fire every turn, but with a 12 impulse delay from turn to turn
III) fire every turn with an 8 impulse delay
IV) or fire every 3rd turn (fire on one turn and then cool down for 2 turns like the SSD states)
?
Better clarification in the Rules and SSD, along with an example will clear all this up.
9) The Lance Torpedo Rules should state how Labs work in Identifying the Lance Torpedo details. What information is known just by firing at a Lance Torpedo and doing damage to it? What information is known only when the Lance Torpedo is launched? Since there are different types of Lance Torpedoes and they typically require a lot of damage to destroy, these Identification Rules are important.
10) The Lance Torpedo Rules should state how they are affected by Wild Weasels. Wild Weasels will be a primary defense against the Lance Torpedoes.
We only have two references, and neither is really specific:
a) Under (FDN103.51) it states that Lance Torpedoes are like Drones in every respect. This seems to imply that Wild Weasels will work. But will they?
b) Under (FDN103.26) it states the Target of the Lance Torpedo can never be changed. So Wild Weasels will not work?
Adding clarification to the Rules along with a possible example should resolve this.
11) It seems to make logical sense that Small Lance Torpedoes could be used in a Scatterpack, since they only take up 2 Spaces. Perhaps the Scatterpack could carry less than 5 Small Lance Torpedoes due to their size. What do you think? This odd variation of the Scatterpack in the Triangulum Galaxy could add some extra flavor to tactics.
12) Under (FDN103.21) it states that a Lance Torpedo must always keep its target in its FA or the Lance Torpedo will self-destruct. So if a ships is running away from a Lance Torpedo, and it performs a High Energy Turn and moves out of the Lance Torpedo's FA, the Lance Torpedo just blows up? This will make the Lance Torpedo particularly vulnerable to Andromedan Displacement. Is this correct?
13) The Lance Torpedo Rules should clarify if Sensors are needed for the Lance Torpedoes. Under (FDN103.26) it states that Lance Torpedoes are Self-Guided, so this implies that Sensor Rating does not matter when launching Lance Torpedoes. But SFB players are used to dealing with Sensor Rating and the number of Drones being controlled, so the Lance Torpedo Rules should include a specific section about Sensors so there is no confusion.
So how many Lance Torpedoes can the Azary Haven have on the board at once? Is there no limit at all?
14) The Shield Degenerator Bomb may be too powerful. This weapon will typically work for 4-8 impulses, if 8 points of power is applied. Lets assume that and look at the damage output.
Over 8 impulses, 1 point of damage is applied to all shields. So this totals 6 points of damage per impulse. Over 8 impulses, that means 48 points of damage is being done. And this is for a weapon that fires once, then cools down (either for one turn or two turns depending on how you interpret the Rules and SSD). This puts a two or three turn weapon on par with the damage of a Plasma R, although spread out over 6 shields over 8 impulses.
If the Shield Degenerator Bomb only hits for 4 impulses, then the weapon will do 24 points of damage (4 x 6). If you consider the SDB a two-turn weapon (which it may not be), then the SDB is doing 1.5x the damage of an overloaded photon.
Yes, there are other factors, like what if the Azary Haven player only puts 2-3 points into the SDB or what if the Azary Haven player puts 8 points into the SDB and then rolls really bad or fires at really long range.
But if you consider the highest amount of energy is applied, the best range is used, and a good die result is rolled, the Shield Degenerator Bomb seems to generate too much damage (in our opinion).
This can be corrected by limiting the amount of energy that can be applied to the SDB or changing the to-hit/loss chart.
15) The P2E may be too powerful. This weapon at range 3-4 can do up to 10 points of damage. At range 0-1, the P2E can do up to 13-14 points of damage. Is the rationale behind this that the weapon is similar to a PH-G? This amount of damage is more than a PH-1 (for double the energy cost of course).
16) The Lance Torpedoes may be too powerful. This weapon is going to be tricky to balance. There are many types, but lets look at the Regular Lance Torpedo.
You have a Drone-like weapon that takes 16 points to destroy and does 48 points of damage upon impact. It moves at Speed 16 or Speed 8 and last 4 turns.
The other factors are that the Lance Torpedo may not blow up directly on the target, but also close by it or not at all. The Lance Torpedo has a limited Turn Mode and sideslip. The Lance Torpedo cannot HET. The Lance Torpedo also has built in ECCM and Negative Tractor. Lastly, the Lance Torpedo will just "self-destruct" if the target moves out of its Forward Arc (need to confirm if we are reading the Rules correctly about this).
So 48 points of damage is the equivalent of a Plasma-R. And the Azary Haven CA has 4 of them (if we are reading the Lance Torpedo Launching Silos correctly). Also, 16 points to be destroyed is 4 times the amount needed to destroy a Type-I Drone.
This might be alright if the Lance Torpedo was the Azary Haven's primary armament, like the Plasma-S Torpedos on a Gorn CA. But the Azary Haven CA comes equipped with the Shield Degenerator Bomb and Ruptor Guns, and the Lance Torpedoes are only supplementary weapons.
If you consider the scenario where a target cannot or does not shoot the Lance Torpedo down, and it actually hits its target, it will do a massive 48 points of damage in one hit. Not only that, but the Azary Haven CA has the potential (not the likelihood) to deliver 4 Lance Torpedo strikes in a single battle.
Is this too much?
17) The Ruptor Gun may be too accurate. This weapon has scaled damage similar to a Photon and Disruptor, that is fine for a two turn arming weapon. But at range 8 or less (for overloads), the Ruptor Gun was automatically hitting. This automatic hit was quite powerful when dealing Overload Damage. The only way we could see the Ruptor Gun missing at Range 8 or less was if the enemy ship really used ECM to counter. But even then, the Ruptor Gun has 2 points of ECCM built in. The to-hit may need to be modified to at least allow a miss on a die roll of 6 (if not more at longer ranges).
Hi Norman,
thanks for the report!
I won't respond to all of this right now let me take a look at this all and I'll come back to you. Remember that the Azary is only in it earliest playtesting phase.
Hi Francois. Ok, sounds great. Take your time.
No problem about the Azary. We generate a rough draft, playtest, revise, playtest, revise, playtest, revise....until we end up with that shining final version. Thats what we do.
Hope you are having a Happy Holiday. Talk to you soon.
Same to you and your family!
Hi Norman, here's some answer to your question:
1) noted
2) noted
3) noted
4a) The rule was changed it is in error.
4b)(FDN103.21)is not the Firing Arc, but the Tracking Arc after launch.
4c) Those are good.
4d) Humm, drone can be launch in any direction.
5) Okay (4-spaces before Y154, 8-spaces after Y154)
6) True.
7) Cost is included in the BPV.
8) New rule is clearer, sorry I didn't get it to you before. Two turns of cooldown after firing is required.
9) noted
10) Wild Weasel work normally just like for drones. This will be noted.
11) Not possible, the launching unit must control them at all time, see new rules.
12) correct at this time, playtesting needed to know if this is too much of a penalty.
13) This is done in the new rules, 4 control channel needed by the Lance torpedo. most unit can only launch one at a time.
14) Well the two turn cooldown period is a big limitation but playtesting will be needed.
15) The P2E IS a very powerful weapon (about as powerful as 4 phaser 1) but you need to look at the whole ship not just one weapon, let's compare the Azary CA and the Fed CA:
Fed CA, 8 phaser 1:
range 1: 42.7 points of damage.
range 4: 30.7 points of damage.
range 8: 17.3 points of damage.
range 15: 8 points of damage.
Azary CA, 1 P2E and 3 P1D:
range 1: 42 points of damage.
range 4: 31.3 points of damage.
range 8: 21.5 points of damage.
range 15: 6.8 points of damage.
so as you can see this is pretty much the same but the truth is the Azary is disadvantage here since the third phaser hit would destroy the P2E (about half of its phaser strength) while the Fed would only lose a phaser 1 (only one eighth of its phaser strength).
So yes the P2E is an amazing weapon but not a world killer.
16) With the limitation on control it should be much less powerful. Also if you go at a speed of at least 4 more then the Lance torpedo you get a plus 2 on the damage table. This will give an average damage of 36 instead of 48. Let see what the playtesting will say.
17) The Ruptor Gun should be compared to the Disruptor Cannon and if you compare the average damage you get something pretty similar.
Disruptor Cannon in overload mode:
range 1: 12.5
range 2: 10
range 4: 8
range 8: 6
in standard mode:
range 15: 4
Ruptor Gun in overload mode:
range 1: 12
range 2: 9
range 4: 9
range 8: 6
in standard mode:
range 15: 4
So yes they don't miss much but they don't do much damage. Let see what the playtesting will say.
Thanks again for the report!
Hi Francois. Thanks for answering each point. Also, I received the revised SSD and Azary Rules. The new charts look great on the Azary SSD.
I have to go through each of your responses in detail, but I noticed two things right away. I hope you can clarify them.
The Ruptor Gun's damage was not in question, that was fine. It was the fact that the Ruptor Gun will automatically hit at Range 8 or less unless the target uses a lot of ECM. Isn't an automatic hit at Range 8 too accurate? Even a die roll of 6 will not miss.
Secondly, if the P2E is not a World Killer, then can you please design a new weapon that is? I really want to see a planet (like Aldaraan) get blown to bits in one shot. J/K! 
Also about the Ruptor Gun notice that the ECCM is not received if the weapon is fired in overload mode (EN113.44).
SDB interaction with:
a) Sigvirion's Seventh Shield
none, the SDB attacks directly the six shield arc, noting else.
b) Armor in general. What does the SDB do to a Romulan Warbird with Armor? Or the Jindarian Rock Armor?
None, the SDB only affects shield not armor.
c) Magellanic Inner Shields
None, the SDB only affects the six regular shield arc.
d) Ryn Ceramic Armor
None, armor is not affected.
e) Branthodon Body
None, since these aren't shields.
f)general reinforcement
None, the SDB only affect the six regular shield arc.
g) specific reinforcement
The specific reinforcement is part of the shield arc is covers so it would absorb the damage from the SDB first.
Humm, the Ruptor Gun is very accurate but pinprick damage so let see what the playtesting will show.
Thanks Francois. We will continue playtesting the Azary Haven.
Regarding the SDB and f) general reinforcement, don't you think that if a player allocates 8 points of general reinforcement, it should protect his shields from the Shield Degenerator Bomb?
It doesn't seem to make sense that the SDB would ignore general shield reinforcement (or rather that general shield reinforcement would not help to protect the shields against the SDB).
This could be changed, in this case the general reinforcement would protect the unit before scoring damage on the shield.
Hi Francois. I finally found some time to go through your Azary Haven responses. Here is a summary and some more questions. Please confirm each one.
1) We are still confused about the firing arcs for the Lance Torpedoes on the Azary Haven CA.
Previously, I asked:
"a) Under (FDN103.14) it says that Lance Silos have a launching arc of 360 degrees"
And you replied:
"4a) The rule was changed it is in error."
Previously, I asked:
"b) Under (FDN103.21) it says the Lance Firing Arc must always be FA (in the Forward Arc)."
And you replied:
"4b)(FDN103.21)is not the Firing Arc, but the Tracking Arc after launch."
Previously, I asked:
"c) On the Azary Haven CA SSD it says L LR next to LAN #1 (Lance #1) and R RR next to LAN #2 (Lance #2)."
And you replied:
"4c) Those are good."
Previously, I asked:
"d) Under (FDN103.51) it says Lance Torpedoes are treated as Drones in every respect. But Drones can only be launched in the FA (Forward Arc)."
And you replied:
"4d) Humm, drone can be launch in any direction."
So we know that the Lance Torpedo must keep the target in it's FA (Forward Arc) while homing in on it. This is the Tracking Arc after launch. You might want to clearly define the difference between the Launching Arc and the Tracking Arc in the Lance Torpedo Rules so that SFB players do not confuse the Tracking Arc with the Firing Arc (like we did).
I don't understand your reply to 4d. Drones cannot be launched in any direction. It says under (F1.24) and (FD1.21) that "the target of a seeking weapon must be in that seeking weapon's FA arc when the weapon is placed on the board." (FD1.21) confirms this by saying that "Drones must have their target in their FA arc when launched." So Drones cannot be launched in any direction.
If I am right (that Drones can only be launched in the FA) then your Azary Haven Rule (FDN103.51) needs to be changed. It currently says Lance Torpedoes are treated as Drones in every respect. But this is not true in regards to the Firing Arc.
So on the Azary Haven CA, did you intend for one Lance Torpedo to be L+LR and the other Lance Torpedo to be R+RR? Or are they supposed to be FA, 360 or something else?
Please clarify this.
2) If the BPV for the Lance Torpedo is included in the Azary Haven CA BPV, then this should be noted somewhere. Either in the Azary Haven R-Section or on the SSD itself.
3) The Shield Degenerator Bomb damage makes more sense since the SDB is a 3-Turn weapon (fire once, 2 turns to cool down). Further playtesting will be done to see if the damage matches the usage/arming period.
I would recommend to make sure that the Shield Degenerator Bomb Rules clearly state that the weapon must cool down for 64 impulses (2 full turns) after firing, just in case the SDB was fired in the middle or at the end of the turn. Currently, the SDB Rules just say 2 turns for cool down after firing, which is a little vague (and could be misinterpreted).
4) Please make sure the Shield Degenerator Bomb Rules clearly state your responses to each of the following:
a) Sigvirion's Seventh Shield
b) Armor in general. What does the SDB do to a Romulan Warbird with Armor? Or the Jindarian Rock Armor?
c) Magellanic Inner Shields
d) Ryn Ceramic Armor
e) Branthodon Body
f)general reinforcement
g) specific reinforcement
5) Under (DN101.1) it states that all Triangulum units are assumed to have a sensor rating of six. The Revised Lance Torpedo Rules state that each Lance Torpedo requires four control channels. This is why the Azary Haven CA can only control one Lance Torpedo at a time. Is this correct?
6) Ok, the Ruptor Gun is super accurate and only does a little damage. We will see how the playtesting goes with the Ruptor Gun.
7) Ok, your explanation about the high damage of the P2E makes sense. We will see how the playtesting of the P2E goes.
Thanks Francois. The Azary Haven are fun to fly and will be even better once we work out all the little details.
Its not right that Alpha octant drone launching units have to have the target ship in the launching ships FA arc.
What they do have to have is the drone facing so that the target ship is in FA at the point of launch.
But for normal drones the tracking arc from the controlling ship is 360 degrees and should a unit move out of the drones FA the drone can still track it and would attempt to bring the target back into the drones FA arc.
It sounds like these drones need the guiding ship to keep the target ship in FA arc, and that's not the way alpha octant drones work.
Thanks Josh. I was in error and I appreciate your correction. I think I have been reading and re-reading the Triangulum Rulebook and Basic Rulebook so much that it has me a bit mixed up.
Yes, it does say under (FD1.21): "When launched, the drone is placed on top of the launching ship, facing any direction at the option of the owning player. Drones must have their target in their FA when launched." This matches your clarification.
But your last line makes me question again. "It sounds like these drones need the guiding ship to keep the target ship in FA arc." If the Azary Haven CA is now using its Sensor Rating to control the Lance Torpedo, then why does the Lance Torpedo explode when the target goes out of the Lance Torpedo's (not the Guiding Ship's FA arc) FA arc?
It made sense before for the Lance Torpedo to explode if the target was no longer in it's FA arc, because it was self-guiding. But now that the Lance Torpedo is no longer self-guiding and is now being controlled by the ship (with its Sensor Rating), it doesn't make sense that the Lance Torpedo would explode if the target moves out of its FA arc.
Or perhaps Francois meant that the Guiding Ship must keep the target in it's FA arc (in which case it would be alright if the target was no longer in the Lance Torpedo's FA arc)? This would be quite different from the Lance Torpedo having to keep the target in it's FA arc....I think I am getting confused again....
Francois, what do you think? Can you please clarify if the Azary Haven CA must keep the target in its FA arc or if the Lance Torpedo must keep the target in it's own FA arc? If your answer is the Lance Torpedo must keep the target in its FA arc or explode, then what is your explanation for why the Lance Torpedo explodes when the Azary Haven CA is now controlling the Lance Torpedo with its Sensor Rating?
(either way, the Lance Torpedo Rules should be exactly clear on the answer and should provide an example or two to prevent confusion)
Waiting for Francois to answer the previous question before proceeding with Azary Haven Playtesting. He has been curiously absent since the New Year. Hopefully, Francois will respond soon.
ATREAN PLAYTEST #3: Atrean CA vs Kzinti BC (fast drones)
Turn #1: Atrean CA speed 16, Kzinti BC speed 25
Kzinti launches a scatterpack at the start of the turn which blossoms mid-way through turn and maneuvers to follow behind the drones by several impulses. No disruptors armed. Both ships end the turn 18 hexes apart, no weapons are fired.
Turn #2: Atrean CA speed 21, Kzinti BC speed 23
The Atrean attempts to maneuver to split the drones on the left, and the Kzinti BC on the right but fails to do so. Kzinti standard disruptors and phasers reduce the Atrean’s #2 shield to 50%.
The Atrean responds with 2 medium variable plasma, one with boosted speed and destroys the scatterpack drones with phasers.
The Kzinti takes minor shield damage from the plasmas, and launched four drones which are dealt with by the Atrean. At this point the drones have completely tied up the Atrean’s phasers.
Turn #3: Atrean CA speed 16, Kzinti BC speed 6/16 split.
The Kzinti begins converting it’s wild weasel to a second scatterpack and recovers the original scatterpack shuttle.
The Kzinti launches more droens and fires standard disruptors from a range of 14. The Atrean launches a third medium variable plasma. Neither ship fires phasers at the other due to the range, the Atrean instead using several phasers on the drones.
The ships end the turn at range 13 and conduct shield repairs.
Turn #4: Atrean CA speed 19, Kzinti BC speed 16/20 split
The ships exchange range 9 strikes. The Kzinti manages to get 2 drones to hit the Atrean, scoring 3 internals, and they end the turn 7 hexes apart.
Turn #5: Atrean CA speed 11, Kzinti BC speed 18.
The Kzinti is reloading the C-racks.
The Kzinti fires standard disruptors, saving the energy for speed and the phasers for the inevitable plasmas. Atrean #6 shield down to 6 boxes.
The Atrean conducts a phaser strike, reducing the Kzinti’s #6 shield by 14. Launches 2 medium plasma, one with improved range.
The Kzinti reduces the plasma with phaser fire, losing half of shield #4. At the end of the turn, the shisp are 14 hexes apart, and the second Kzinti scatterpack is finished loading.
Turn #6: Atrean CA speed 12, Kzinti BC speed 17.
The Kzinti launches the second scatterpack, and again attacks with disruptors while saving phasers for the third plasma torpedo, which the Atrean launches as a medium with increased range. It will only do 1 damage point when it hits the Kzitni’s #3 shield.
The Atrean’s phasers are used up destroying the second scatterpack before it can blossom and additional drones launched from the racks of the BC.
They end the turn 11 hexes apart. The third scatterpack is being loaded.
Turn #7: Atrean CA speed 13, Kzinti BC speed 18.
All the drone racks on the Kzinti are being reloaded. The Kzinti conducts a range 8 alpha strike and scores 10 intenrals.
The Atrean fires a few phasers tro destroy remaining drones.
The ships end the turn at range 9.
Turn #8: Atrean CA speed 16/12 split, Kzinti BC speed 16.
The ships fire various weapons at each other. The Atrean manages to score two medium plasma hits (one with improved shielding), reducing two of the Kzintis shield’s heavily.
They end the turn at range 7, and the third scatterpack finishes loading.
Turn #9: Atrean CA speed 15, Kzinti BC speed 16.
The ships savage each other within overload range, and the Atrean hits with two small plasma (one with increased range). The Kzinti suffers 12 internals, losing a disruptor and several phasers.
The third scatterpack is launched and blossoms late in the turn.
Turn #10: Atrean CA speed 16, Kzinti BC speed 15.
The Atrean uses all of its phasers to kill drones. The Kzinti hits with 3 overloaded disruptors reducing Atrean shield #4 to one box.
The ships end the turn at range 6.
Turn #11: Atrean CA speed 0 (TAC), Kzinti BC speed 15.
The Atrean is using minimum shields and launches four small plasma. The ships savage each other at close range. The Kzinti loses a second disruptor.
Turn #12: Atrean CA speed 10, Kzinti BC speed 14.
The ships exchange range 8 strikes, including two small plasmas launched by the Atrean. Minor internals to both.
Turn #13: Atrean CA speed 8, Kzinti BC speed 10.
More range 8 fighting and minor internals. Kzinti shields #2-6 are down. All Atrean shields are down, except #4 which is down to one box. The ships are at range 1(!) at the end of the turn
Turn 14: Atrean CA speed 0 (TAC), Kzinti BC speed 0 (HET).
Brutal knife fighting.
4 small plasmas do 24 internals to the Kzinti. The Kzinti is out of drones.The Kzinti si only able to fire its two remaining disruptors on overload, as its phasers were used in plasma defense.
Turn #15: Atrean
Range 2 fighting, several internals each.
At the end of the turn, the ships are at range 2. The Atrean has no phasers left but still has 4 plasmas and half of its warp power (and not much else left). . The Kzinti is a gutted wreck with 2 APR, 1 ph-3 and 1 ph-1 left, and no shields, and concedes.
Brutal fight that one. Does sound like it was fun.
Hello, I have broken out my Module E2, I also have Captain's Log 23, and have downloaded the errata file in this thread. So is there any other updated information I would need to start playing those races? I have seen some things in Module E2 that I think need clarity but I would hate to comment on something that has already been fixed! Thanks,