Is it possible to change the C7S to a C7 with 2xG1 and delete the escorts on both sides?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, July 16, 2014 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Thomas Mathews:

Not really.

You have to remember that when this started it began with a historical background that said the Rapier, which had been converted to operate heavy fighters, was destroyed in a duel with the Decimation. At the time I checked the ship registry and Decimation was just listed as a C7, but that name was later (after the ship registry was published but before the historical background note on the fate of the Rapier was published) assigned to a C7S, and the Decimation was thus always a C7S. So, since we are doing the "historical" last fight of the Rapier (which was destroyed in a battle with the Decimation about a week before the General War ended in a cease-fire), the Decimation must be a C7S in the scenario.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, July 16, 2014 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Hmmm, what if the Kzinti came upon the Klingons while they're awaiting their attrition elements (for some obscure reason), then the Kzinti have an edge (roughly 696 to 508, but I'm a bit stumped after that for why the Kzinti stick around)...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, July 17, 2014 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Stewart Frazier:

And already mentioned a couple of times in the discussion, and as noted such "caught waiting for the attrition units" scenarios (whether fighters or PFs) already exist. How would this one really be any different? "Side A has to hang around until Turn #X when its fighters and/or PFs return and if it fails to do so the fighters and/or PFs are destroyed and you lose the scenario, and by the way Side A also loses the scenario if its carrier or tender is destroyed before it can recover the attrition units."

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, July 17, 2014 - 07:20 pm: Edit

As I see it, both sides have to want to fight, not just one. Or one side has to fight for (fill in the reason).

One possible scenario might be a desperate effort by the Rapier group to delay or distract the Decimation C7S from some other potentially much more valuable target that the Kzinti side must protect at all costs.

If that were the case, the Rapier group is expendable... the only possible victory available to the kitties is to delay the klingons long enough for the blank target toflee for safety.

Just what couldbe so valuable that the kzintis would throw away a carrier group, isnot something I can answer.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 09:01 am: Edit

Could it be that the Rapier stumbled upon a fixed resource that the Hegemony said to secure, believing that the Klingons didn't have sufficient strength in the area to put up a fight, but they did?

Or a piece of intel, such as an abandoned Andromedan mine?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 09:37 am: Edit

Hmmnnn... not sure.

The Kzinti Hegemony would have many mines spread out over 13 on map F&E provinces.

Is there anything that the Kzinti Hegemonic Navy would consider so valuable that it would make a sacrifice of the Rapier group seem reasonable?

What if the SSCS broke down near by and was vulnerable? An heir to the Patriarchy on a tour of the battle front? how about the Patriarch's Wife On a USO tour for troop morale?

It has got to be something "big".

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 10:29 am: Edit

No, I mean that it is the fact that it's Andromedan, not that it's a mine.

I suspect by the end of the GW, the RTN was probably well on its way of being finished, and the first Dominator has shown up. The Andromedans were surely ramping up from being local nuisances to a real menace by this time.

Perhaps the Rapier stuck around (and was destroyed) simply because it believed reinforcements would arrive that never actually did. That, combined with a directive to secure a fixed resource, caused them to stay longer than they should have, to their ultimate destruction.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 11:46 am: Edit

With the War drawing down, perhaps they were trying to provoke the Klingons into continuing to fight?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 01:57 pm: Edit

A. David Merritt:

The Scenario Background posted

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 11:59 am: Edit

takes just that point.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Maybe it ran out of petrol. It was low on gas and met up with a fleet oiler to refuel. It would presumably have deployed the fighters & escorts in an attempt to delay the C7 (or its attrition units, anyway) long enough for the CV to get enough fuel on board to disengage by acceleration (and maybe to save the oiler too).

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 07:56 pm: Edit

Hmmm, wonder how long it take an oiler to refuel a ship and if partial refueling works (the Rapier starts with a set level on board and the option is then to hang in for more fuel. Map sounds like a 2x2, maybe a 2x3 (84x90)...[4x4 maps would be truly epic field of play, hmm, terrain of?]

By Mark Steven Hoyle (Markshoyle) on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 08:14 pm: Edit

Then you have to design a Refueling Rule.
Decide what kind of fighting a ship being refueled can do.

I bit more entailed than I believe you want.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, July 19, 2014 - 08:50 am: Edit

If we assume that it is another group that is fueling... perhaps a CVA or SCS group that was damaged in another battle and is in danger of running out of gas, then the Rapier group could be all that stands between them and capture... for the Klingons to have the chance to capture a full Kzinti CVA or SCS group intact (or mostly so) would be worth using the C7S.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, July 19, 2014 - 02:13 pm: Edit

Refueling is already discussed in "Mutiny on the Demonslayer." The Story with the Slidarian Marine officer...

So the rules would be pretty easy. You need X number of cargo spaces of fuel. Fuel can be transferred via Transporter, Docking, Cargo PF and Shuttles.

Actually, I wonder if that might be a standard Cargo PF mission. It crams in some cryo tanks of fuel and runs out to pre-positioned fuel points (I think there is a story out there about one) and to ships needing a top off to remain on patrol.

And I'd imagine it would be a HATED mission by the PF crew. Run out without a decent (or any) escort crammed full of maintenance intensive cryo tanks...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, July 19, 2014 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Refueling:

See (R1.91) and (R1.92).

The ship being refueled has to shut down its own warp systems (i.e., the warp engines are not even providing power).

Under way replenishment is not possible.

So basically you are at Speed Zero and docked to a bomb (see explosion value of an oiler).

Nobody refuels in the actual combat zone, you always plan on doing it behind the lines and someplace where a fast raider is not likely to turn up, much less a raider period.

If you have a ship that needs refueling in the combat zone, the Commander of that ship, his executive office, his chief engineer, and his chief logistician will all be relieved of duty for incompetence.

This does not mean that ships are never caught refueling (ships refueling when an enemy ship that was cut off in the advance and is trying to slip back to friendly lines stumbles over them for example), but oilers tend to be well protected and thus when your isolated ship stumbles across a refueling site it tends to be very bad.

No one, however, hazards oilers where they might be easily picked off, and ships keep a good percentage of their fuel load as "reserves" rather than for normal use so that they do not run out of fuel before they need to see an oiler. And Fleet Command is constantly badgering commanders for their fuel states in order to make sure they get their tanks topped off at regular intervals so that the oilers do not have to come too far forward.

For example, the U.S. had almost 80 oilers in service in World War II (through the war's end), of which five (5) were sunk. Three in 1942, and one each in 1943 and 1944 when we were on the offensive.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, July 19, 2014 - 08:09 pm: Edit

Hmmm, transferring attrition units to the C7S (with or without battle damage)?? [CL#41's Six Check being a similar special case...]

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, July 19, 2014 - 11:37 pm: Edit

Question:

Given that "Accidents Happen"...

Would it be reasonable for a CVA or SCS to be damaged in a fueler explosion?

Lets say that such a thing infact did occur... and that the Klingons long range sensors detected the explosion and the proximity of the CVA/SCS group to the vicinity of said explosion.

Sending a C7S to "make sure" the CVA/SCS really was dead would be a valid mission.

Just as sending the Rapier group to delay or distract the C7S to give time for the crippled CVA/SCS to flee could be a command decision not taken lightly.

Sort of the kind of thing that ended up with 300 spartans holding off a vast host of enemy soldiers at a pass somewhere near the borders between antient Greece and a powerful empire to the east.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 01:01 am: Edit

I would think that IF a ship needed refueling in a bad area (maybe the area was considered safe and went bad by surprise?) then it would not get refueled by an oiler but by something smaller and with only enough to safely get it back to a safer area to fully refuel.

Can warships share fuel?

Or maybe send a tug to tow it to safety?

Are there ways a ship might lose its fuel? Damage, sabotage?

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 01:49 am: Edit

In the CapLog story Mutiny on the Demonslayer, a ship borrows fuel from another warship (an F5 IIRC). So it's clearly possible. The Demonslayer has its fuel bunkers sabotaged and runs low on fuel as well (same story).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 07:51 am: Edit

In the real world, accidents that caused capital ships (I.e. carriers or battleships) enough damage to require a tow back to base are rare.

About the only ones I can think of were collisions.

The problem with that is SFB rules prevent that option.

Well.... there was one incident just after world war one that involved a captain Halsey, and some junior officers named spuance and arleigh burke.

It seems that captain William F Halsey was ordered to "aggressively" attack a squadron of battleships (including the uss Oklahoma, the uss nevada and atleast one other).

Halsey brought his destroyer flotilla to point blank range and launched a large spread of traingtorpdoes (warheads filled with non explosive and painted white) at the battleships at night in a training exercise.

All three battleships received damage to propellors, rudders and the Oklahoma had some hull damage that caused minor flooding. All three ships had to be drydocked for repairs.

Halsey was arrested and the admiral who ordered the attack insisted that he be court martialed.

That could have ended the career of Halsey... but the court found that he acted in accordance with his orders, and that punishing an officer forcomplying with orders given by his superior officer would not be in the best interests of the service. The admiral retired soon after.

The incident was published in a recent biography of fleet admiral william f "bull" Halsey.

.... the only other times I am aware of ships needing a tow was that french carrier a few years ago... the charles De Gaul... seems that this nuclear carrier used steam to power turbines and for powering catapults for launching aircraft. As built, the ship didn't have steam to provide for both functions at the same time. The french decided that the solution was to redesign the ships propellors to have a more aggressive angle for the blades of the propellors. The problem turned out to be stress fractures as the first time the tested the nw propellors, the blades sheared off.

The. French navy cancelled construction of the next carrier of the class soon after...

But that doesn't seem to help us find an answer for this scenario.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 05:30 pm: Edit

The Patriarch for what ever reason was visiting/inspecting that sector of the front (are some other major Kzinti leader). The Klingon's became aware and sent a force to kill capture him. The only way to save him was to delay at any cost the Klingon force. Thus the Rapier was lost heroically i am sure.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 01:39 pm: Edit

You guys can try writing those up as scenarios, but as proposed they do not fit the background for the Rapier/Decimator action.

1.) The action takes place in the last week before the cease-fire.

2.) The Klingons would want this cease-fire pretty badly (they have been driven out of Federation, Kzinti, Hydran, and Tholian space and have suffered Alliance offensives into their own space, at least one of which threatened their home worlds, i.e., see "Inviolable in action").

3.) The Patriarch is dead as of Y184. The Crown Prince is currently the ruler of the Hegemony, but his position is politically weak so he has not assumed the throne. It is not in the interest of the Klingon Empire to kill him.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 06:50 pm: Edit

How did the Patriarch die?

Any chance he could have been aboard the Rapier?
/clipart(grin)

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Perhaps a faction of the Kzinti did not want the war to end. They wanted revenge on the klingons. To desecrate the klingon home worlds as there's were. Sending the rapier into a trap its destruction before the cease fire a call to destroy the Kilingon's. of course it does not work the war ends.