In the real universe, the magellanic clouds are both roughly 200k light years away from Earth, so it's a comparable distance.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 11:15 am: Edit

The ISC base-deployment system is in the F&E section of CL22, I do believe.

So what if it took the Xorks 50 years, or a 100, to find the Alpha Sector, build their logistics net, and then launch their invasion? They find someway to cross the voids, send exploratory expeiditions throughout the galaxy in, say the Y120s, realize that the Alpha Secotr presents the biggest future threat for whatever reason, an resolve to take Alpha out before Saragasso, Sigma, or Omega. They then spend 100 years preparing for the invasion. Because they are that dedicated and sheer bloody-minded.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 11:22 am: Edit

The LMC is 200,000 LY away.

The center of the galaxy is 28,000 LY away.

Accounting for flying around the curve we would be about 44,000 LY away from Xork space. Much closer than the LMC.

Back to the drawing board.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 11:35 am: Edit

I'll check out CL22. It sounds like important strategic background. Is there anything decent explaining how we managed the logistics of OpUnity?

If the Xorks took 50 years to build a logistical network and you assume we need a logistical network of equal proportions to reach them then it will take us at least the same 50 years to destroy their network. That's before invading their controlled space.

That's too long in game time. Possible, yes, fun, no. Historically able to muster all the races to ally for 50+ years to push them back? Forgetaboutit. They can build that bridge if they like but we can't return the favor. Political infighting might not even allow us to push them back to the epsilon void. But perhaps the void is far enough.

I think it would be more fun to build ships that can circumnavigate the Milky Way in a few years. That's where X3 comes in. But I can see we are too far away to start to worry about that right now and I will pull my head back out of the clouds.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 11:42 am: Edit

ISC Logistics> Basically the ISC had a rapid-deployment pre-fab BATS design that could be carried and placed by a single tug. They have rules that allow them to basically strat move a tug carrying such a base to a SMN, then three more hexes (under restrictions, basically only through Neutral Zone hexes) and plant the BATS. In the same phase, another tug does the same thing, using the newly planted base as the end SMN and moving another three hexes to plant it BATS, and so on, with the ISC being able to do this six times in a turn.

And we have no idea how the Xork War ends, except that it prob doesn't end with the subjugation of the Alpha Sector. Maybe we just hold them at the borders of Alpha, maybe we pus back, who knows. Well, SVC does

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 11:42 am: Edit

I seriously doubt Alpha's will ever invade Xork controlled space. Not via strat movement.

If such a thing were to happen it would be done using Xork tech. If the Xork's use a wormhole (transwarp conduit, warp gate, oranges, whatever) to get to us, we use the same wormhole to get to them.

42

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 01:34 pm: Edit

I think the Xork invasion will go something like a Rocky Movie. We'll get beat like crazy round after round. Then in the end we muster up the strength to slam the bad guy. (we push be to the void and destroy their network that got them accross (maybe sacraficing some ships on the other end in a big heroic battle story!). Having won the respect (though they still hate us) the Xorks stay on their side of the void, isolating themselves (in a rather Korean style)on the other side.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 02:07 pm: Edit

That would be the stereotype.

It would be interesting if the Alpha sector were actually subjugated for a while, but the rebel bit has gotten pretty cliche since Star Wars as well...

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 08:56 pm: Edit

It could end with a massive revolt in the Xorkelian home sectors.
If there are choke points to hold off the Xorkelians, the Alpha races could unite to hold off the hordes. Then since they can’t use the Xorkelians route to the Alpha quadrant why not just hop outside the galactic barrier then hop back to the milky way in the Xorkelians backyard, and instigate a bunch of revolts backed with whatever the alpha races can send. After all the Alpha races have managed to traverse the energy barrier around the galaxy to drive to the LMC and take out the Andromedans. They might even drag along a cohort of LMC races to aid in the chaos. In the end the Xorkelian Empire is turned into a pre-shogunate Japan with thousands of petty overlords, trying to re-unite the factions. While the Alpha try to setup trading posts and puppet empires to prevent the return of the Xorkelian Empire.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 09:15 pm: Edit

It could go any number of ways, really. Don't know if anyone has read Michael Stackpole's Blood of Kerensky series about Battletech, but in those books, the vastly superior clan forces get beaten because of a very strict martial code, preventing them from fighting dirty. Not saying that's the case here, but it may be that the Xorks are beaten in some really unconventional way we wouldn't expect.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 10:12 pm: Edit

I like Battletech but there's very little there that's worth borrowing for SFB.

the Clan would be the last on my list of things.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 08:51 pm: Edit

I can see four options for the resolution of the Xorkelian assault.
1) Alpha races lose become Xorkelians conquest, game over pick up your dice and go home.
2) Alpha triumphant. Yeah!!! For the good guys.
3) Xorkellians assault is terminated, either by natural disaster, Xorkelians give up expansion, etc. in this one no one wins, no one loses.
4) something I have not thought of.

1) Is a no brainier, Xorkelians have 6 sectors, to the alphas 3 plus what ever they can steal from LMC.
2) This is going to take some doing; either the Alpha races develop a killer weapon, get really lucky or have vastly superior technology. Maybe the Xorkelians attack the omega races at the same time; this fight would be a little more even, with six unified sectors vs. 7 fractional sectors. Or the Overlords have very little control over their empire and have few resources to spend against the alpha races.
3) Here it would be deus ex machina, or a revolt/revolution inside the Xorkelian Empire, which draws their attention away from conquests.
4) This is the one that I prefer.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 09:33 pm: Edit

Re: Xorkaelian Invasion results.

Maybe it's the Alpha races diversity that wins the day.

Sure the Xorks will have a modular design but between all the alphas there is major diversity. The Xorks have to develope fighting styles for each race. One from a long ways off against many. It's what killed the Andros. Combine Plasma, Drones, Disruptors, Photons, ESGs, Hellbores and Web in one big fleet and well...nuff said. I can't imagine SVC giving the Xorkaelians that kind of diversity (It would take, what, four modules?). They are probably used to fighting one race at a time and probably a little full of them selves by now. Reports from the raids might prove misleading as they took on one enemy at a time. But in a full invasion they have another thing comming after the initial surpriseand the races regain their footing.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Latest timeline attempt. Any percentages used should be considered placeholders.

Y168 - General War (X0)
The ships of the general war will be referred to as X0.

Y181 - Late General War (X1)
First generation advanced warships already published in X1 and modified in CL23. The first X1 ship is built, with base hulls of other classes following soon after. X1 ships were warships first and were vastly more expensive to maintain and operate than X0 ships. X1 ships make up 10% of the fleet during the General War.

Y186 - ISC War (X1R)
The X1 ship had proved its worth and the races began experimenting with low production run variants such as the Fed GSX. The X1R variants were generally upgrades built off hull designs already compatible with X1 tech.

Y195 - Late Andromedan War (XP)
No race ever fully adopted X1 tech due to the increased operational and support costs. Instead partial X-refits were adapted to compatible X0 designs to increase their effectiveness while retaining the lower operating expense of X0 ships. These ships didn't have the strategic speed or enlarged warp engines of an X1 ship, but they did have many of the smaller improvements. In general ships that were compatible with full X1 tech were scheduled for X1 conversion and did not receive an XP upgrade. Old and obsolete hulls as well as certain non-combat variants did not received XP tech except under unusual circumstances. New construction is 20% X1, 75% XP, 5% X0. The Andros are defeated in Y202.

Y203 - The Second Naval Treaty of Washington http://web.bryant.edu/~history/h364proj/fall_00/trimborn/washington.htm
With the Andros but a nuisance the first period of cold peace in half a century settles across the Alpha quadrant. All races are economically exhausted and find themselves equally incapable of supporting the massive fleets they built to defeat the Andros. The Second Naval Treaty of Washington is signed by all Alpha races and placed strict tonnage and ship limits on all fleets. It was thought that by verifiably reducing fleets below what would be needed to initiate an effective invasion that a future war could be avoided.

The Klingons and Feds were limited to 200 ships. Others received proportionally smaller allotments. All were further limited by weight and ship class. Limits included:
15% Heavy Command ships (CVA/SCS/DNH/CX/BCH/CA/CVB/B10/CR=10)
25% Light Cruisers (CL/CM/CW/NCA/HDW/CV/PFT/SC)
25% Destroyers (DD/DDX/DW)
35% Frigates (FF/FX/SC) [interesting variation: no limit on FF class ships]
20% X1 ships (all classes)
10% True PFT/SCS (all classes)
10% True Carriers (all classes)

Ships of a smaller class could be substituted. The races were given two years to verifiably comply with the treaty. There was some minor cheating but most races were happy to reduce their expenses. The R&D department was put to work planning a new generation of starship designed to reduce operating costs and circumvent the intent of the treaty. During these surplus years production came to a near stand as the shipyards were retooled for X2.

Y204 - The Trade Wars
To meet the treaty some races had to reduce their fleets by as much as 80%. Many surplus ships were sold off to planetary systems as National Guard units or to act as convoy escorts for trade cartels. Warship proliferation, competition between the trade cartels and the shift of power away from central governments creates a Wild West environment outside the capital province.

Y205 - X2
The R&D departments build prototype X2 ships beginning in Y205. The technology is designed to be the combat and strategic equal to an X1 ship of the same class but operate much more efficiently. The X2 ships were designed to be true multi-role starships, not dedicated warships. They were designed to meet the weight limits of the treaty so a lighter hull design with a lower movement cost was built. The lighter hulls were supplemented with a new structural integrity field.

New construction during the X2 period produced X2 ships. So many X0/XP/X1 ships were mothballed after the treaty that a lost specialty ship would be replaced with a previously mothballed ship. Even so the races were not in a hurry to deploy the new technology as each ship produced meant retiring an existing relatively new ship.

Y215 – Xork Invasion
The Xorks invade and leave devastation in their wake. The treaty bound fleets are simply not big enough to stop the Xork push, even with the large number of National Guard ships still operating in most systems. All Alpha races immediately go to full war economies and enhance their fleets in a number of similar ways:
1) Return mothballed ships to service.
2) Federalize key National Guard ships and crews.
3) Upgrade existing X2 ships to warships.
4) Produce larger combat oriented warships based on X2 tech.
5) Invest in advanced attrition units.

After many years and massive losses the Alpha races stop the Xork advance.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 12:29 am: Edit

Your most plausable version yet. I disagree that the first X2 ships should be the power of X1 but more efficiant. The situation calles for more concentrated power. The first X2 do need to be more maintainable and ready for longer missions but they need to be the safe guards of the treaty as well. The first X2 ships are then flag carriers and enforcers ofthe treaty. They are the reason to stay honest.

Of course the Romulans say they will only have 100 ships but that darn cloak makes it difficult to be sure. As it turns out their secret fleet provides a lot of help in stopping the Xorkaellians from making a clean sweep of the Alpha quadrant.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 12:32 am: Edit

I like it. Nice job.

The only thing I see that I disagree with, would be the section in X2 where you mention:

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Quote:

The technology is designed to be the combat and strategic equal to an X1 ship of the same class but operate much more efficiently

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By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 12:33 am: Edit

Tos: this is good!

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 12:35 am: Edit

"Your most plausible version yet."
It should be. It is not intended to be my vision, its intended to be a synopsis of every compromise made by all participants to this point. Everyone will have something they aren’t happy with, including me, but we keep getting closer.

I like the Rom idea, alot.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 12:44 am: Edit

I only say "Plausible" because of that SVC guy. You know what I mean.

Tos, really, nice work. I can clearly see that you did consider every thing pretty well. You have been obviously paying close attention. Thanks.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 12:44 am: Edit

I was under the impression that X1 = X2 in F&E strategic speed.

r.e. the 'equal to X1' objections. Pick the ‘equal’ answers you like best:

1) Y205 X2 ships are far more expandable than X1 ships, which are already maxed out. This allows us to start as equals and grow much larger as the need arises (see BPV thread).
2) The ‘same class’ theory is actually a half class different in movement cost. A CM(X2 MC:3/4) = CB(X1 MC:1). They are the same class and serve in the same role but the X2 ship has a more efficient warp field and lighter hull represented by a reduced movement cost.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 12:46 am: Edit

I do make a special effort to pay attention when SVC speaks.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 12:49 am: Edit

So an X1 CA (MC 1) workhorse is equal to an X2 CL (MC 2/3) workhorse?

An X1 CL (MC 2/3) = X2 DD (MC 1/2)
An X1 DD (MC 1/2) = X2 FF (MC 1/3)

That makes sense.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 01:04 am: Edit

Yes, by Jov.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 07:26 am: Edit

By gadfry I think there maybe a light at the end of the tunnel.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 07:05 pm: Edit

I know I'm going to open a can of worms with this, but I was talking about this with a couple of people in our gaming group, and we had some interesting ideas:

• Would the police forces take most/all of the X2 frigates for police work?

One of the lessons of the General War is that frigates are death traps, if used as mainline combat ships. That's why the HDW was built.

While heavy combat isn't expected in the Y205-Y215 period, it certainly has to be planned for.

Once the economy starts recovering, say Y209, production will start increasing again. Not to Late GW levels, but in increase over Y205.

• What admiral woudn't order the commissioning of a new high-tech DN, even if it means pulling 3 CLs off the production schedule.

National prestige would demand at least one big ship. And the DN has been the standard flagship since Y167, over 35 years ago.

As far as we know, the Klingons have 2 B10s that survived the General War and Andromedan invasion.

The Kzintis still have the SSCS docked to a starbase somewhere.

Most other races are either afraid of the Klingons, the Kzintis, or both.

Sure it would be tied up to a starbase getting polished and repolished most of the time, but it would be available if needed.

From the Second Treaty of Washington (in this thread):

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Quote:

The Klingons and Feds were limited to 200 ships. Others received proportionally smaller allotments. All were further limited by weight and ship class. Limits included:
15% Heavy Command ships (CVA/SCS/DNH/CX/BCH/CA/CVB/B10/CR=10)
25% Light Cruisers (CL/CM/CW/NCA/HDW/CV/PFT/SC)
25% Destroyers (DD/DDX/DW)
35% Frigates (FF/FX/SC) [interesting variation: no limit on FF class ships]
20% X1 ships (all classes)
10% True PFT/SCS (all classes)
10% True Carriers (all classes)

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