Archive through September 09, 2014
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
Seltorian Tactics:
Archive through September 09, 2014
The problem is that the TBS is the other fleets with just a few command ships. I know this because I learned it while writing the CL28 story, "Step Into My Parlour".
The TBS is a training fleet until the start of the General War. There are several command ships but the bulk of the TBS are ships rotated from various fleets to give crews real combat experience. The TBS then gets transferred to the Kzinti border when war starts. I presume it is then rebuilt from the few remaining ships left there. It is never very strong until the middle of the General War when the TBS commander tries the fighter swarm tactic against the Tholains, which was a success. That's when Operation Nutcracker was formulated.
(I'm operating purely from memory, so forgive me if I'm not exactly right.)
Anyway, the TBS is made up largely of units from other borders and to go into all out war would require keeping those ships (then making transfers as needed to return ships other fleet admirals demand be returned).
The Seltorians would certainly demand an immediate attack. The Klingons would have little time to form a real border fleet (not impossible I sure but...)
Regarding that last point:
I didn't say that this is what the Seltorians WOULD do. I'm saying this is what the Klingons would have to consider that the Seltorians may do such a thing. Military policy of empires is often based largely on what could happen. I mean, the USA and Russia STILL have nuclear missiles aimed at each other. The Feds and the Gorns both have armed battle stations on their borders.
Sharing technology is a dangerous game especially with a race you really know nothing about (only what the Tholians say, which isn't good, and what the Seltorians say, which is all good and heroic, so is obviously not true.)
Gunboats were not a technology that would go anywhere (that current engineers could see anyway), and the Seltorians are not going to share back.
Killing the Seltorians isn't THAT easy. In fact, they will have an even bigger fleet than what they showed up with. I think you under estimate the Seltorians and over estimate the Y150 Klingons. And Seltorians are on a crusade against the Tholians but that doesn't mean they would tollerate being a tool. Being used as a tool is part of what made them hunt down the Tholians in the first place. The Seltorian attatude will be "We are here to destroy the Tholians. You can help US if you like and we will not be your enemies."
Assuming that the Klingons would trust the Selts enough to allow them to take the battle to the Tholians in the 150s, think about what else would happen with the political landscape. How would the Romulans react? At that time they were pretty far behind the curve in terms of technology and ship building. They might potentially help the Tholians, simply to keep a superior Klingon force from their door.
That might change the entire dynamic of the quadrant. If the Feds and Roms were co-belligerents against the Klinks, the Gorn would likely be allying with the Klinks in place of the Roms. Then you have a Fed/Rom/Kzin/Hydran alliance vs. a Klink/Lyran/Gorn alliance. The Rom/Thol alliance vs. the Klink/Selt alliance heats up pretty good. And we all know how scary web/plasma interaction would be. Selts would be absolutely required to penetrate web-protected bases. If they were ever wiped out (something Roms would have much fewer qualms about than the Feds), the balance of power might shift dramatically, with the Roms only one vulnerable border.
You also run into the problem of how the Feds and Roms react. Do the Feds help arm the Roms with modern tech to fight the Gorn and Klinks? History shows that they'll ally even with aggressive expansionists (such as the Kzin) if they need to. Do they supply old hulls, such as the OCL? What happens if the Roms (who are expansionist, unlike the Gorn, and have a consolidated central government, unlike the Kzin) decide to invade the Gorn, since they're isolated from their allies like the Hydrans. Or what happens if the Gorn feel the need to support the Klinks by opening another front for the Roms to fight on?
I could take it further, but you see how it could be extrapolated.
The Tholians would probably be pushed back initially from the original border as their Base Stations (not BATS) are toasted by the Selts.
But then when the Selts reach the SBs, they'd get blocked real quick and lose their attack fleet very quickly.
Lets say a Selt fleet of CA as a flagship (CR8 IIRC), 3xCA, 3xCL, 3xDD (battlegroup), against a Tholian fleet of 3xC, 3xDD, 7xPC a the SB.
The Selts will not take down that SB, by themselves, without fighters or PFs or ships heavier than a CA.
The Selts won't have the F+E "density" to take out the SB, the above line is 65 COMPOT, the Tholian line is 103 COMPOT (w/ SB, and EW support). If both sides to 30% damage each round, the Selts take 30 damage (say toast 3xDD and cripple a CL), the Tholians take 20 each round (say destroy 2 PCs+DD). But remember the Selts don't have a scout, so they would actually be inflicting less damage than the number above.
2nd round, the Selts replace with the same ships, the Tholians bring up 3xPol, and do the same damage again (about).
The Selts are going to run out of ships by round 3-4, because they are not going to have 40-50 ships needed to inflict the damage on the SB to destroy it.
If the Selts lost 20 ships by the time they leave, and they only build 2 SC-3/4 SC-4 per 6 months (we don't even no how fast the hive ship builds ships), that's at least 3 F+E turns to rebuild what was lost.
The Tholians in the meantime have rebuilt 2xC and 6xPC (IIRC, I can't remember my tholian build schedule off the top of my head). And the SB is fully repaired for them to bash their heads against again.
From the SFU timeline, we don't even know if the Selt fleet which arrived reach ANY Tholian SB here in this galaxy. Without a CR10 DN to lead their fleet, they will die a horrible death against one.
How does F&E handle the web? In SFB it's a serious force multiplier that the seltorans come close to negating. The effect of the Web, and the Seltorans' removal of that advantage is key to understanding what happens when you add selts.
The tholians also have to deal with the Petrick Conundrum of base defense. The tholians have territory to defend and can't simply let their fleet sit at the starbase. The Selts aren't required (except perhaps by fanaticism) to drive headlong into a base + serious defending fleet situation. They can raid convoys and raise havok to make it too costly for fleet units to hunker down at the base.
F+E handles the web by making the attacker 'dive' into it and get stuck. Something the Selts won't have to worry about.
The Attacker can also NOT direct damage against the defenders. Which against the Tholians isn't that great of an idea, since you lose 1/2 of your damage when you direct. So the Tholian has to choose his own damaged ships (which will usually be the smallest to the largest). Which doesn't matter, as you just want ALL of the tholians to die/retreat, you don't care in which order.
In this time, Y150, ftr/pfs aren't present, so the Tholians have no "damage sponges" to absorb the attacker's first volleys.
I think the general point about the Seltorians attacking star bases is still valid. The Seltorians don't have the fleet strength to defeat a Star Base without either building up a large fleet or getting outside help.
While, I said earlier that the Seltorians didn't like to wait around to gather their forces, they aren't presented as being excessively stupid. They won't throw an insufficient fleet against a star base with a defending fleet, they would build up the necessary fleets in order to take out a hardened target, but only if there are no other good targets to attack.
Basically, the Seltorians / Tholians would be in a situation where the Seltorians can't defeat the Tholians at the capital or the star bases, but can defeat them everywhere else and they would be stuck there for a while. However, that is not sustainable for the Tholians. Eventually something would give and the political situation would become very complicated and unpredictable.
If the Seltorans simply stripped away the part of the Holdfast defended by base stations, what would be the *economonic* effect on the tholians?
It would be devestating.
The tholians would have to fight the Selts to the death or be slowly ground down by attrition.
Or look for help. Since their big paranoia is avoiding being found by the Selts, it might make it easier to ask the Feds for help.
What would be interesting is a Romulan/tholian alliance. Say the Feds don't want to intervene because they don't want to get sucked into a potential war with the Klingons. The roms aren't all that close to the Klinks at this time and they would take warp technology in exchange for help against the selts in a hot minute.
Who knows? the Rom 2nd Gen might be converted *tholian* ships. And maybe the occasional captured Seltoran ship. Or there is no second-gen and the roms proceed straight to the third.
The Tholian Dyson Sphere (or capital hex) makes 20EPs, they'll get 1EP for a 'contested' provience, so 21EP income. The Dyson sphere makes as much as 4 major planets (it's a significant source of money). It makes more money than the surrounding "territory" that they have.
Enough to create the production schedule and repair about 3-4 cripples (depending on size of the cripple).
One thing to bear in mind regarding the Feds and Klingons is that in the Y150s, they go to war anyway. (Indeed, it is that war which had the Organians assert themselves and impose a certain well-known Treaty.)
So, it's not too hard to imagine an unhealthy bucketload of cross-border tension between the UFP and KE... enough to make sure the Seventh Fleet is kept warmed up should the Tholian front look less than stable.
Plus, the Feds would likely much prefer to be the ones helping the Holdfast, rather than see the Romulans step in. (From a Tholian perspective, a TL12 Star Fleet ready to go might be more welcome than a TL9 Romulan fleet which would take years to refit.)
Now, the interesting question might be what happens if the Feds and Klingons end up in a larger war over this, and the Organians step in as they did historically. What kind of effect would that have on the Tholian front, even if the two larger powers didn't decide to just skip around hex 1913?
(Maybe the Organians would overlook a 'prolonged ratification period', just long enough for a Fed-Tholian task force to strike at the Hive Ship?)
Which leads to another tactical question. Historically, the ISC took the most powerful X-squadron they had to smash the Hive Ship. What odds would an allied Federation-Tholian force have at taking it down in the Y150s?
Considering the Feds and Tholians can proximity photon it to death, and the Fed SC is available Y130.
It'll die a horrible inglorious long-ranged death.
The thing is that you don't consider the Selts alone against the Thols. Without the general war, the Klinks can use relatively few Selt ships to break webs, then use standard fleet tactics to crush inferior Thol ships. Yeah, the Selts will take the beating as they're the most dangerous opponents for the Thols, but that's fine by Klink standards. It saves their ships for what comes after the Thols die.
This would create a fun alternate history.
The Tholians pressured by the Seltorian/Klingon combination appeals to the Federation, and when the Federation intervenes it ignites a Klingon-Federation war. This eases the pressure on the Tholians. But they still realise they need to crush the Sletorians while they can, so they make a deal with the Romulans, provide warp tech and ship construction know how in return for troops and resources. Just to add to the chaos, lets say a couple of houses use the deal to make a power play for the Romulan Empire which erupts into civil war, and Romulan territory is balkanised into three areas. With their new allies they can advanced in and confront the Seltorians and conquer Klingon territory.
The first Romulan region is the houses allied with the Tholians; each considers it a deal with the devil, but necessary. They both want to milk the other for as much as possible so they can go forth and conquer. By this time the Tholians have realised they have been found, and hiding in a corner of the galaxy is not going to work they need to grow and prepare for the coming Seltorian storm when the home galaxy reinforcements show up. They take a more aggressive stance with their allies the Romulans.
The second faction forms the Romulan Republic and is the weakest in military strength, to prevent the other factions from overwhelming then they sign agreements with the Federation and become a protectorate, This expands the Federation’s territory and opens a loophole for the hawk members of the Federation council for future expansions, it is view by the doves as a humanitarian act that can lead to a peaceful reconciliation of the Romulan people under a democratic rule. This area cover the region of space adjacent to the Federation border, the Gorn border to the ISC border and provides a break between the other two Romulan regions. The Gorn view it as Federation expansionism, even though they are relieved the Romulans have been “removed” from their borders, it drives a wedge between the Gorns and the Federation.
The Third state is the remnant of the Romulan Imperium, who have withdrawn to the newly discovered territory on the edge of the map and the off map area. They nurture a fierce hatred for the Federation, Tholians and especially the other two Romulan regions. They direct their entire economy towards the production necessary to take the war to the rest of the galaxy.
While this is going on the Kzinti see the Klingons at war with the Federation and Tholian/Romulan Alliance, sense an opportunity and attack, the Lyrans then attack the Kzinti, The Hydrans stay neutral. The Federation only has 1 active front, but must now protect the Gorn border, the Romulan Imperial border, and watch the Tholian/Romulan alliance who are co-belligerents and provide no real assistance to each other as the Romulan Alliance want the Romulan Republic, and the Tholians see the Federation as the biggest threat after the Klingons.
Just to add to the fun, in the future since the ISC does not run into the hot border between the Gorn, and Romulans, but instead the calm Gorn ?Federation border, they never develop their pacification fleet, and are quickly conquered when the Romulan Imperium makes it first move back into the galaxy. This expansion creates a much more dangerous enemy for both the Gorn and Federation governments, and leads to the military build-up which turns out to be required to deal with the Andromedeans.
A very different map and F&E scenario. 
Even if the contact in Y160 was peaceful, the Concordium would still be driven to develop their TL12 fleet, which would be smaller than the powerhouse it became in later eras (but still large enough to keep 1/3 of the Romulan Empire at bay).
Quite frankly, an arrangement which sees the ISC get conquered and turned into the Romulans' EP nest would not be on my list of interests at all. (But then, that's just my own opinion on the matter.)
So far as the overall deal with the devil goes, I'm not so sure. The Achilles' heel of a Klingon-Seltorian attack would be the Hive Ship, which happens to be parked right across the border from the Holdfast.
Getting Star Fleet to help smash it, and thus both cutting the legs out from under the Seltorians and removing the advantage the Klingons would have in a continued alliance, might be a far better use of the Tholians' time than putting the keys to the family saloon in the hands of a violent neighbour with a galactic conquest complex...
(However, if the Hive does go down, it would still make sense for the Klingons to offer Smarba, in order to counter both the Tholians and Federation.)
My group is starting a new (non-historical) campaign and I get to play the Selties. Any generic tactical tips? Any specific tactics I should use against Klingons, Jindarians, ISC, Frax, or Tholians?
YIS is more or less ignored, but we all get about the same BPV each campaign turn, so the battles should be mostly even, barring RPS.
Boarding Parties....think the Shield Breakers can be fired before transporter actions (H&R)...
Make the Tholians pay you protection money.
EDIT: Or, since this is a campaign, ally with them.
You are going to be a heavily-courted empire because of your ability to counter the Tholians. The tholians will be heavilly courted in order to keep them from invading.
The two of you together should be a terrifying power bloc because it eliminates playing one of you off the other.
As said Tholians in Troy's example, I am ALL in favor of paying protection money.
The campaign has rules for mugging each other in dark corners while in the process of paying each other bribes. It would be a pity not to get to use them.
Ohh ... Tholian/Seltie would be an AWFUL fleet against say our ISC opponents, what do you say Troy?
Especially since Matt doesn't read this board... :D
I see my work here is done.
There are nasty Tholian/Selt web tactics you guys can pull when you have both snares/web casters and the means to take them down on demand..
You can use snares to control your fleet's forward movement and set up cast web firebreaks against DF and plasma then use web breakers to pop them when you decide it's to your advantage to move or fire. I'm sure you guys can cook up enough abuse to give your moderator fits.
John T
termpaper?
If that does become a problem, there could be a rule stating that if a Seltorian player wants to ally with a Tholian, he has to take a "pre-revolt" (i.e. no web breaker) fleet.
One other thought about that Y150s-arrival thing; if the Tribunal force had the ability to convert the Hive Ship into a Battlewagon and back again, would they be audacious/fanatical/fate-tempting enough as to risk it against a Tholian starbase of that era, or would they wait until/unless they had a clear run at Tholia itself?
If I'm the Selty Queen I'm not risking the Hive ship as a Battlewagon unless I've got enough infrastructure to build another hive ship AFTER losing everything I throw at Tholia. My driving purpose is to destroy Tholians. Dying in the attempt does nothing unless I'm confident the Klingons will follw through and finish the job.
Many of the players I've talked with online feel the Seltorian Particle Cannon is perhaps a tad too weak. They reference the 12 impulse delay or the range break or having to pay a hold on the capacitor system (when other capacitor systems such as ESG/phasers/shield cracker etc) don't require a hold charge.
So my 'toss out there' questions is two-fold: If you think the Selt's PC is fine as-is, why? If you feel it could use a slight tweak, what would YOU do to tweak it? I'm not talking about making it into an X weapon or uber-powerful, rather just something to make if a bit more viable.
Thoughts welcome and thank you
The Particle Cannon is a bit weak and perfectly fine. All weapons can't be equivalent in all cases. The Selt phaser suite makes up for many of the Particle Cannon problems. The proposed Seltorian Tournament Cruiser with extra phaser-1s by every account was very effective.
The Seltorian problem is a lack of mass non-phaser seeking weapon defense. Using seeking weapons to keep enemies away while phasers reduce oncoming seeking weapon swarms is another alternative unavailable to Seltorians. Official history Seltorians can (briefly) rely on friendly Klingons to cover weaknesses of the Seltorian design.
Not knowing what forces the Seltorians were breed to face (what weapons the Tholians feared). I can only assume their home Galaxy didn't contain forces with seeking weapons (we know the Tholians didn't have them).
Would the Tholians have really outfitted their Cannon Fodder with weapons that were a real threat to them.