Archive through September 16, 2014
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
Seltorian Tactics:
Archive through September 16, 2014
And the Home Galaxy having no seeking weapons forces is perfectly logical. After all, Tholian fleets of the Home Galaxy were bristling with webcasters. It would be rather pointless for rebels or pirates to bother to develop seeking weapons to fight the Seltorians, when all that would mean is some Tholian ships being sent in.
After some lengthy discussion on the PC elsewhere, the common thought is to reduce the 12-impulse delay to 8 impulses and delete the hold cost on the capacitor.
Several reasons were cited in arriving at this conclusion. First, no SSD or chart is revised. Second, 12 impulses, particularly over the turn break was felt to hamstring the system 'too' much. The weapon, generally speaking in duel type matches is slightly less effective overall than a disruptor for producing damage, and slightly less effective to-hit than a photon considering range breaks. This was felt to be sufficiently balancing when considering it is a twice-per-turn heavy weapon. Lastly was to drop the hold charge on the PC capacitors. This makes it a more efficient weapon and also has the added factor of making the shield cracker more viable later in the duel rather than being a 'first alpha strike only weapon' due to power consumption later in the game. And again, it is a capacitor. I can't think of any other capacitor system that requires a hold charge.
No one in the conversation thought this a dramatic change that would unbalance the system. Rather that it would simply make it a more viable weapon overall. This is what we're going to do in our local FTF game. But I'd like to see it done in some tournament games as well (doesn't have to be a sanctioned event of course) if the opponent agrees to the testing of this modification to see what difference, if any that it makes. Only way for the rubber to meet the road so-to-speak.
I would imagine that this was used to change the PC from having to have it's first shot be an OL to allowing it to choose which shot could be OL. That was a good enhancement for the system. Our feeling is that it may need another bump overall. I ventured an opinion that it would be a bit more popular on the tourney scene with the 8-impulse delay and no hold capacitors.
If such a change was made, how would that impact the use of particle cannons on Neo-Tholian ships in the home galaxy (or in the Early Years of the Alpha Octant), or by the two M81 Pirate ships previewed in CL40?
And would such a change trigger a knock-on effect on the PC rules in other games, like Federation Commander? (Right now, PC firings in FC must be three impulses apart, which equates to 12 impulses in Star Fleet Battles - with the exception that this delay does not extend over turn breaks in FC.)
Gary wrote:
"If such a change was made, how would that impact the use of particle cannons on Neo-Tholian ships in the home galaxy".
What information is available on the types of vessels and weapons systems the Neo-Tholians in the Home galaxy face (other than the two pirates)? I would suggest that if the 8 impulse delay/no hold caps seem to be a viable adjustment to the PC 'here' it would also apply (retroactively) 'there'. Just as the PC OL function was adjusted 'here' it would also apply 'there' I should imagine.
"or in the Early Years of the Alpha Octant"
You'll have to help me out here, were PC's faced by anyone in the Alpha Octant during the early years? I didn't think the PC showed up until the Selts arrived during the GW era.
"And would such a change trigger a knock-on effect on the PC rules in other games, like Federation Commander? (Right now, PC firings in FC must be three impulses apart, which equates to 12 impulses in Star Fleet Battles - with the exception that this delay does not extend over turn breaks in FC."
I don't play FC but I understand your point. Two options readily available;
1. Any change in SFB translates over to FC as close as possible.
2. Keep them separate. This seems to already be in play if the 12 impulse delay doesn't apply to the turn break in FC but still applies in SFB.
Quote:What information is available on the types of vessels and weapons systems the Neo-Tholians in the Home galaxy face (other than the two pirates)? I would suggest that if the 8 impulse delay/no hold caps seem to be a viable adjustment to the PC 'here' it would also apply (retroactively) 'there'. Just as the PC OL function was adjusted 'here' it would also apply 'there' I should imagine.
One source of info on what was happening in the pre-Revolt home galaxy is the Pirates of M81 Galaxy monograph in CL41. There isn't too much else in print for that galaxy just yet, at least while we wait to see what Loren Knight has in store for us in Prime Directive: Tholians.
Essentially, the OGR and OGD in CL40 are "export models", sold to a series of High Pirate Bands which cropped up in various places at different points in time. The "domestic" versions of these hulls (which have yet to be published) were used as raiders by the Nebuline, a faction which had opposed the Tholians in a pre-Will conflict (the Great Martial War), and which held out inside a number of nebulae scattered across the home galaxy. Supposedly, the "native-run" Nebuline raiders, plus the "wingless" ships used in their regular Navy, had some sort of key technology that provided them with a decisive advantage when fighting in a nebula (where the Tholians can't cast web in any event), though we don't yet know what that Nebuline tech actually was.
I suppose the closest equivalent I can think of is if we had a situation where we had rules and SSDs for the WYN-Orion hulls, but had yet to see how "true" Orion Pirate ships worked by comparison. (Only, in this case, the pirates were the ones using the stripped-down versions, and not the other way around.)
Quote:You'll have to help me out here, were PC's faced by anyone in the Alpha Octant during the early years? I didn't think the PC showed up until the Selts arrived during the GW era.
According to the data in Module Y1, the Holdfast Tholians had two NDDs (with functioning web casters) and four NFFs available to them upon their arrival in the Milky Way Galaxy. All six ships were lost over the next few decades, mostly in combat against the Klingons.
In addition, the Tholian YR-section in Module Y3 discusses why the Holdfast Tholians were unable to build new PCs or web casters by thesmelves. (When they tried to hack their way into the mainframe hosting the PC data, it initiated a core dump which totally destroyed the files. Not wanting to make the same mistake twice, the web caster files were left alone until Neo-Tholian naval officers provided the appropriate access codes.)
Quote:I don't play FC but I understand your point. Two options readily available;
1. Any change in SFB translates over to FC as close as possible.
2. Keep them separate. This seems to already be in play if the 12 impulse delay doesn't apply to the turn break in FC but still applies in SFB.
As it happens, the two pirate hulls also have sample Ship Cards in CL40. Plus, the various Neo-Tholian Ship Cards account for both disruptor and particle cannon use, as shown in this example.
But the playing of that game does have its differences, so there'd probably have to be a discussion on what, if any, changes there might be triggered by anything done to that weapon here.
Alright, good information for consideration. Here's a couple of thoughts to toss out there;
1. In relation to early years in either the M81 or in the Alpha, perhaps the PC's are kept per the current rules. GW era and above have had a refit added to the PC that shortens the impulse delay and removes the hold cost.
2. As a further 'possible' explanation for this proposed refit, the Selts in conjunction with their allies the Klingons looked into using DERFACS and UIM on the PC. Neither system was compatible with the PC, however, it did lead the Selt researchers along another path i.e. 8 impulse delay and no hold caps. The Klinks could have also had a helping hand in this as the disruptor of course is already an 8 impulse weapon. Sadly, the disruptor was not found to be compatible with the twice-per-turn firing system. Just a way to justify the refit. It could be just a natural progression for the system.
This keeps M81 and/or early year PC's separate from GW era Alpha PC's if desired.
Hmm.
Well, as a further point of comparison, the advanced particle cannon rules in Module X1R reduce the delay to eight impulses, up the capacitor space to seven points of power, and allow for both shots to be overloaded in a single turn. (From what I can tell, you still have to pay the holding cost, though that is less of a problem when you're flying an X-ship.)
So far as I'm aware, the Selts hadn't quite gotten around to adopting partial X-refits by the time the Torch was extinguished, though I'm not 100% sure on that front.
I suppose one could treat any "pre-X" upgrade to the PC as part of that development process. Which may account for the eight-impulse delay, but not for any rebate on the holding costs.
X1R is still on the 'to get' list so I wasn't sure about the X version of the PC. Too be honest, until recently I didn't even know the PC had an X version. You mentioned that the Selts may not have been around long enough for partial X-refits, is the X-PC a Tholian weapon in X1R? Are both OL shots three points each or is the second shot reduced like the standard shots?
"I suppose one could treat any "pre-X" upgrade to the PC as part of that development process. Which may account for the eight-impulse delay, but not for any rebate on the holding costs."
This sounds reasonable.
If used as a refit (or partial X-refit), the cost of the refit would have to be decided. If we could go the extra step of dropping the hold cost (in terms of being part of the same refit or perhaps an additional refit) a cost would need to be assigned to it as well.
David,
No, the Tholians don't get an X-PC. Their X-tech heavy weapons are the disruptor, the photon torpedo, and the web caster.
I also think that in general, it is a mistake to focus too much on the particle cannon when evaluating the Seltorians. Most Seltorian ships have excellent phaser suites compared to BPV-comparable counterparts, for example. Many (though not all) of them are also above average in generated power. The CA, if I recall correctly, generates 40 points. This is clearly above average for movement cost-1 ships of comparable BPV.
The Seltorians got an X-PC in Module X1R. One of the improvements was that it can fire both shots in eight impulses. Another was that both shots could be overloaded.
The 8-impulse delay, 7 point cap and both shots being able to OL sounds like a pretty substantial advancement for the Selt PC.
I really like the idea of dropping the standard PC from a 12-impulse dealy to an 8-impulse. Allowing the X-PC to do double-overloads and increasing their capacitor seems reasonable enough for higher-tech stuff. I realize the 12-impulse delay might have been added to make the PCs different than your normal Alpha-Octant heavy weapon, but it subtracts too much from a weapon that has the warhead of a disruptor and is as accurate as a photon (the worst aspects of both those weapons).
Yes but it can be held and fired as either a overload are standard load. What other weapon can have a overload ready but then when the enemy does not come into overload range still be fired?
The PC does have a level of flexibility that other HW's don't have. But you also need to look at the range break which frankly is pretty horrible compared to other HW's. And to have the further restriction of 12 impulse delays, even over turn breaks can really neuter what could otherwise be a fine weapon. Not a super-duper weapon, but a good one.
The X version makes it pretty substantial. Non-X, well the cons, imo, outweigh the pros. Reducing the delay to 8 impulses and even removing the hold cost on the caps is a pretty easy way to bump it up without changing any charts. I don't see dropping the cap hold cost as being unbalancing as often it wouldn't even be used further into the game when you're probably just putting 3 points in anyways to charge it. But it 'could' be slightly beneficial here and there. So I don't see either 'refit' as being outrageous or unbalancing to the weapon, rather just enough of a bump to make it more viable/playable.
That's just my take. Testing it out would be the next logical step.
David,
But to further expand on the point in my 4:51 pm post from yesterday, I'm not convinced that "balancing the weapon" is the right approach. What is important is to balance the ships. If the Seltorian ships can be shown to be too weak across the board (a task that would be complicated by RPS considerations), then an upgrade to the particle cannon might be in order. But I'm not yet convinced the Seltorians really are too weak, given their historical role.
So what *is* the RPS situation of the Selts? obviously, they should trump the Tholins. They seem to be trumped by heavy seeking-weapon-users, so the Kzinti (and probably all BP) should trump them.
How "should" they fare against crunch races (Federation, Lyran, Hydran, Andromedan)? How about mild seeking-weapon-races, such as the Klingons, WYN, and Orions?
Improvements in the PC will allow them to compete against the crunch races. Improvements in the phasers would allow them to compete against the seeking-weapon races.
We have a couple of points to consider; historical and realistic. What I mean is that historically, they fight the Tholians. You're not going to see them against the Hydrans, Lyran, Gorn, Carnivons etc. Realistically, the game can be played with all sorts of combinations. This would apply to Tournament as well as regular SFB.
Let's look at the tourney scene for a moment. Folks seem to enjoy the Gorn, Klink, Lyran Roms etc pretty well. How many are chopping at the bit to be the Selt? Would an 8-impule delay and no hold caps make it a bit more attractive to the prospective tourney player?
For regular SFB, particularly if the Selts were flying against someone besides the Tholians would folks generally see the 'proposal' as a decent one? I agree that generally speaking the Selts have a good phaser armament. Probably the only thing that keeps them at least hopeful against a heavy seeker race (I've played them against a good Kzinti player...it isn't an easy task). But if you have that good phaser armament kept busy (which a good Kzinti should be doing) then you're left with generally one shot that is slightly weaker than a disruptor and hits slightly worse than a photon. Meanwhile the Kzinti is coming in with his disruptors and plethora of phasers to do what Kzinti's do best. Not saying is a sure thing of course, just an example. And Selts, if playing before Y184 is screwed for WW or t-bombs which kinda come in handy against seekers.
A follow up point to my above post. Historically, we don't have battleships for the most part. Realistically, we have a pretty cool module devoted to them and thy get played. Historically, the Feds don't have PF's yet I bet I'm not the only one to fly a Thunderbolt 
So historically, a Selt probably doesn't have to worry much about Kzinti drones or Hydran Stingers or Gorn plasma. But realistically it would be nice to fly them against each other (and I'm not the only one as my buddy is getting ready fly one against a Gorn).
I don't have stats and table showing the PC 'needs' the proposed refit. Just saying, based on playing the Selts against various races, that I 'feel' that it is a needed and reasonable refit that doesn't mess with the existing charts/SSD's and would slightly help but not unduly unbalance the weapon into a death ray.
Someone, somewhere in time suggested that the PC needed to be able to fire the OL either first or second rather than just first. That was a good change. So basically I'm someone, somewhere suggesting the next refit ;)
Apparently, of the Gorn and Kzinti expeditionary ships sent to aid the Holdfast during Operation Nutcracker, a few of those were still there by the time the Torch expedition's operations got underway. Just how many may not be made clear until F&E Minor Empires is published.
Also, there would be the matter of the Inter-Stellar Concordium's intervention in Y186, and the subsequent Klingon efforts to mop up what remained of the Seltorian's assets on their side of the border.
(Plus any Orion or Andromedan encounters the Torch expedition may have been obliged to deal with during their time of operation in the Alpha Octant. Or at least the potential of such incidents may have existed.)
Perhaps the Galaxy that have spawned the Tholians and the Selts simply were not meant to fight the races spawned in our galaxy.
The Tholians managed to survive through extensive defensive use of the web. The Selts strengths to bring down the web serves no real purpose against non-web using enemies.
Maybe, just maybe, the Selts simply cannot win unless they have an outstanding commander at the helm.
Not all races can be equal (technologically speaking), and somebody's got to be on the bottom of the totem pole. If the Selts can't take the heat, they can go back home and lick their wounds.
That being said, I don't see a problem with a later year refit as David Schultz described. Every race gets refits (all based on improvements of technology that no longer fit the bill).
Oh, I don't know about that; the (post-)Revolt-era Selts do have those handy Battlewagons to throw around, after all.
While the rows of web breakers would be most useful in destabilizing Tholian Spheres, they'd still help to drop a facing shield on a non-Tholian starbase. And once that's done, the BW could be used as the ultimate commando ship. (Unless they decided to strip the WBs out and place phaser-1s or PCs in the same mounts, for use against non-Tholians.)
Perhaps the problem is more that they are unable to fully leverage the advantages they possess in the home galaxy when launching expeditions to others. They would need to build a new fleet yard capable of constructing BCHs and DNs upon their arrival, and it's not clear yet just what kind of production facilities existed for the pre-Hive (and pre-Nest) cargo ships back in M81 (and whether they can be duplicated elsewhere).
But then, one key issue for the Seltorians is that their fleet was not really "theirs" to begin with; the tools they had on hand when operating as a Tholian Will enforcer species were those which the Tholians themselves had provided for them. It would be difficult to duplicate that kind of dynamic in an "open" campaign, since there's no guarantee that a Seltorian fleet designed to operate as a "normal" empire would work the same way as the one which was, essentially, tailored to do the Will's bidding.
It would be interesting to see some of the ships used by the Tholians' enemies out on M81 (such as the aforementioned Nebuline, and whoever else the Tholians may have fought during the Great Martial War). Maybe those would be more balanced fleets than that of the Seltorians, since they would have presumably developed independently prior to the formation of the Will.
And to be fair, if a "full" Neo-Tholian faction had the same kind of unrestiucted access to web casters in an open campaign that the Will enjoyed back in M81, it would spell trouble for opponents in any known galaxy... (And if the Nebuline's unique technology turns out to work against anyone, not just the Tholians, it might be hard to flush them out of an occupied nebula full stop.)
Considering the Selts One-Tracked Hive mind:
To Destroy the Tholians at all costs,
being no threat to other empires,
why would they worry about them at all.
Other than an Alpha empire ship/fleet supporting/protecting the Tholians, the Selts
are more than likely to just ignore them.
Mark Steven Hoyle:
The Seltorians are not all that one-tracked.
They are perfectly capable of looking around and thinking to themselves "this might be a good place to set up shop."
Your average Seltorian has very little loyalty to the "old homestead." [None of them, except a few Sages, Experts, and Queens, were alive when they left the Tholian Home Galaxy (now the Seltorian Home Galaxy) to pursue the Tholians, and even if they dropped the idea of chasing the Tholians and went home on day one of their arrival outside of Holdfast Space, none of them would live to see the Home Stars again.]
If they saw weakness, having a chance to create a new colony that might eventually expand and take over the new Galaxy would certainly appeal to the Sages (strategic thinkers). And allaying suspicion that they might do that by insisting all of their resources are going towards "killing Tholians" is a perfectly reasonable method of masking intentions.
At that point, not "exciting the neighbors" by attacking their ships is a reasonable plan. (Do not give the Federation the idea that they might want to expend more resources trying to find out what we are doing by aggressively attacking their ships unless their ships wander into our area of operations, but we do attack Orion, Andromedan, and Jindarian ships in our area of operation, and a few "civilian" Klingon ships have "vanished" in our area of operations too.)
The Seltorians, by the way, do not have a "hive mind." Every Seltorian, whether Queen, Sage, Ram, Expert, or Worker is an individual in terms of its own thinking, not part of one mass mind.
SPP wrote:
"The Seltorians, by the way, do not have a "hive mind." Every Seltorian, whether Queen, Sage, Ram, Expert, or Worker is an individual in terms of its own thinking, not part of one mass mind."
Very true. According to the story, 'Web of Deceit' in CL#36 we have at least one Seltorian that's now an Orion Pirate
I will say this, an argument that the capacitors for the particle cannon does not work like other capacitors is not a valid one.
While called a capacitor it does work differently.
There is no restriction on arming particle cannons at WS-0 and firing the weapon.
No phaser can be fired for 32 impulses if you start at WS-0 because you are required to "warm" the capacitor which takes a point of power. And this is measured from the point where the warming energy is applied, i.e., if you do not do it during energy allocation, but try to do it with reserve power during the turn, the 32 impulses starts from the point where you allocated the reserve power.
While there is a holding cost for the capacitor system for a particle cannon, there is also one for a phaser capacitor, it simply rarely comes into play. If you do not fire a phaser every 25 turns, the capacitor becomes de-energized. So you do have to pay at least 0.25 points of energy (if your ship has a phaser-G) or 0.5 points of energy every 25 turns to keep a phaser capacitor energized, i.e., you have to fire a phaser shot expending the energy which creates an empty spot in your phaser capacitor that you can choose not to fill for 25 turns and then have to fire another phaser shot and so on.
Phaser capacitors are distributed, all phasers are linked to one capacitor system and can use the energy anywhere in it. Particle cannon capacitors are linked to a single weapon, and weapon A cannot use energy in weapon B's capacitor and vice versa.
So, no, particle cannon capacitors are not going to be changed to operate like phaser capacitors, nor phaser capacitors like particle cannon capacitors, or either of them to work like expanding sphere generator capacitors [which can hold up to seven points of power, but unlike a phaser capacitor cannot release it all (maximum of five points), and unlike the particle cannon capacitor has no holding cost, but like the particle cannon capacitor does not have to be warmed like the phaser capacitor does].
Capacitors are unique to the system they support and you cannot use the operations of one to call for changes to another.
So, no, the operations of Particle Cannon capacitors are not going to be changed based on how other capacitors operate. That line of discussion is a non-starter.