D'oh! I better read Module M now that our forces have been activated.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Welcome to the 429th, Colonel. Sorry we couldn't get here sooner.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 06:22 pm: Edit

Colonel Baluda:

You probably have not been following this all that closely. All actual decisions will be made by Colonel Knight. The rest of you are pretty much "playing a role playing game" and giving Loren Knight advice. Partly by asking questions and revealing to all of us things that need mentioning in a possible Captain's Log Article that will explain how a Planetary Defense Battalion actually operates, what its capabilities are, why it does somethings, but not other things.

I think, for example, that many reading this topic have been surprised to learn just why a DefSat costs as much as it does, and why they are not necessarily as easy to kill as they had thought, and that controlling them actually involves several tactical decisions (firing just before going around the edge of the planet in their orbit for example), and their ability to "lurk" even when damaged.

I have (due to those rules) frequently found them a major pain (after I trained my opponents by using them against them). As they are on the map, you always "technically" know where they are, but not precisely (you can time when they are due to appear in their orbit, but not necessarily where they are in their orbit, or which among numerous decoys generating their own "returns" on your scans they are). So they remain hidden until almost the end.

A campaign would have to establish a procedure for when the DefSats stop being a threat if the defender chooses not to allow them to be destroyed. Basically, if you take the planet, at some point you will finall discover the control center, or you will have left a ship in orbit long enough to finally pick them off, but it is entirely possible to base a scenario off the concept of a relief force arriving to retake a planet and find that the defenders still have a DefSat or two of their own still in operation for the enemy to deal with (and perhaps some troops hiding out in "remote areas" that can link up with your landing force and so on.

SFB allows a lot of options for the creation of scenarios.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Lt Col Baluda: 'Welcome aboard!', glad you invited us to the party!

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit

Captain Chobot:

You may not have realized it, but technically you have just insulted Colonel Baluda.

I am not kidding.

Your greating in essence tells Colonel Baluda that his unit is subordinated to the battalion and has become a component thereof.

Politics are grand, and Colonel Baluda was very probably high up in the "resistance organization" which is why he is in command, and you can probably guess what that says about his "personality".

The correct form in this case is "Colonel Baluda, the 429th Battalion welcomes you".

And in your specific case, "Colonel Baluda, Maneuver Company, 429th Battalion, welcomes you, sir." As you, being merely a captain in charge of a subordinate unit of the battalion cannot extend the battalion's courtesy formally unless delegated that function by the Battalion Commander, but can only extend the courtesy of your own Command, i.e., your company.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 06:36 pm: Edit

OK-

Time for a "breather".

We have, if I have kept score correctly, discussed the back ground and culture of the planet, including its recent military histoy (ocupation/liberation).

We have at various times argued and debated, the 429th deployment and Table of organization, the make up of the fighter wing, the commanders option points, the merits of Def SATs, transporter repeater function, the short comings of a PDB (light) in system defense at ranges beyond 35 hexes, reinforcement of the FSB's (additional deck crews) and the activation of the Home Defense Battalion.

What is the next major order of business?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 06:41 pm: Edit

OOPs.

Not knowing military etiquette, did I also commit a "faux paux"?

If I did, I beg your pardon. Was mean't as a friendly greeting to the thread, not intending insult.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 06:42 pm: Edit

SPP:

Any chance of positioning a header to this discussion listing the current force composition of the 429th, the Home Defense Battalion and any other defending forces (and their current deployment)?

With that said, we are rather informal in the "Bat," but we are serious about defending our homes.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 06:46 pm: Edit

I didn't realize it, my understanding of actual military protocal is non-existant [or in GPD terms, I'm defaulting to Savoir-Faire (Military), and badly at that). COnsider my comment to be something more suitable along the lines you've described.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 07:17 pm: Edit

Colonel Baluda, the 429th Battalion welcomes you. Moreover, thanks you for your previous work in defending Cassadra IV.


What is left before posting a header is the final tally of Comm. Ops. There were some missunderstandings on my side and I'll refigure them shortly. (But right now I can't concentrate as I have to take a gander at AO first!)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:11 pm: Edit

SPP- Would there be any value in additional "sub Plots?" for instance, you earlier commented about questions referencing monitors if the intent was to insert comments about star fleet not assigning any to local defense duties. It occurs to me that there are a number of such subjects that might be appropriate in this context, to add 'color' to the story.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 09:28 pm: Edit

I thought, but I might be mistaken, that some have stated that we don't get any trans arty rounds unless we decide to buy them with commanders option points... BUT, the R section on small ground bases says we get one per BP at the GMG, including extra BPs we (the Col.) decide to buy... Unless decided otherwise, I'd suggest the GMG buy ALL extra BPs we need (subject to BPV % limits) to get those free T-arty rounds... We can always transport the GMG BPs at noncombat rates before the bad guys arrive,
and I assume (with the usual caveat) that the baddies will definately blow away our GMG early to limit out mobility via transporter. In other words, if we see them coming we need to disperse the goods enough to make it hard to kill them off easily, but not so much as to make ourselves scattered and near defenseless targets.

Note number 2) I reread the D15.1 section in my 1995 dated module M. It states that:
a) Every hexside has a GCL which has has 3 control stations (unless SPECIFICALLY stated otherwise), and that capture is FREE to whomever get there first. The whole commanding terrain thing... (I'm no expert at this In RL, all I remember is "NEVER get out of the water" and "when in doubt, swim AWAY from shore")
b) you can surrender them as casualties at will, holding 2+ gets you a nice die bonus (one per round)
c) Control stations CAN'T be captured by speciic allocation if they still have GDS, the baddies have to fight their way through your gds and BPs firepower first. So you can give up the gds then the control station before you HAVE to give up the BP to satisfy casulties. unless you only have a FEW BPs in which case he specific allocates to crew killl our potential there.
d) every control station has 2 gds for free, making 6 per hexside and 36 on the planet (unless specifically specified otherwise). THATS why a mere battallion can put such a bruise on an invasion. It's like the seabees put in your bases where ordered and based on their survey just plunk down a coupple of gds where appropriate to defend each of the most commanding terrain features...

note 3) I would strongly reccomend against spending excessively on GCVs and tanks. for the three transporter actions to move one gcv + crew, we could move 6! HWS (assuming we had that many). I think that we are going to be transport limited more than RAW firepower limited. Tanks are NEVER a good deal, they cost too dang much... But if we KNOW we want to keep firepower in one location, the GCV can be a good deal, better than an extra gds purchase...

note 4) so in light of the above if the Col decides to hold EVERY GCL with at least a minimum force and keep the rest as reserves we get
a) each hexside has 3 BPs at 3 control stations with 6 gdstotal. Thus a MINIMUM firepower of 3 (BPs shooting) plus 12 (the gds the BPs control) with a plus one on one die roll (thus a roll on the 10 table and one on the 5 table under 15.32, I'd suggest enhancing the roll for the 10 table, it has a 5/6 chance of producing an extra point of casaualties, the roll of the five table only gets a 2/6 benefit).

And that with only 18 BP on the entire planet in static defense means that the baddies will take on average 5.33 casualties on the FIRST comabt resolution step for EACH hexside, so those 18 BP will do about 32 combat points of damage, assuming the bad guys can muster 100% of the firepower needed to kill our BPs in one round (ie kill 3 BPs at specific allocation rates) and assuming we don't beam in a few reinforcements...

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 01:36 am: Edit

Vehicles are important to the ground defense. Look up S&D operations. Preventing the opposition from forming up at non-combat rates in a remote area is very beneficial (or at least getting one turn of attacks without much of the enemy shooting back).

Shuttles are best for overall use, but GCV's are incredible in their combat value for cost plus the flexibility of being transportable. Tanks I find too expensive and too limited. Some disagree.

The GMG is limited in the number of BPs it can purchase. If I did the math correctly, the defense force should have about 20 Transporter Artillery rounds. Of course, since that will take up 5 turns of nothing but TA usage, that probably exceeds our total real expenditure of TA. I have to look over the rules to see how to get some TA rounds transferred to the GWS's, especially the one opposite the Marine garrison.

More BP are tied down then just the ones at each GCL. Some must be retained within the confines of the various bases. One of the more irritating aspects of this is how important impulse 32 becomes. The defending bases are limited as to how many BPs can move on any impulse. Thus, BPs outside will mostly watch if the enemy boards a base directly; or most of the base's local guard force can't get outside in time to stop a landing. Watch all the troops stand in the wrong place if the OPFOR sends their shuttles into the hangar of fighter bases or GWS or even (amusingly) right into the Marine garrison. Just one of those frustrating elements of the end of turn on the Sequence of Play.

How many fixed defenses are available I am unclear on. More will be better but a full D15 force would have almost as firepower in Ground Defense Stations as in all other planetary defenses combined. Seems slightly excessive.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 10:17 am: Edit

I wondered why this thread was still active.

Why don't you guys actually move this to a new topic for 'ground defense and organization(including fiction)' or something?

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Richard Wells, I considered the whole dilemma about BPs inside vs outside the bases and came to the conclusion that they are mostly better outside after studying the ssds and the M section on Boarding vs ground combat

1) if youlook at the small bases in general, they have about 15 - 20 boxes or so; P4 has 16 w/8 APR, GWS has 18 w/9 APR, GMG has 41 w/ 7 APR. The BIG question would be whether the darn bases are divided into sections of about 15 to 20 boxes with a Brg/Aux OR are more tightly compartmented (ike ships are) so that sections are missing the "AntiTransporterField bridge" (tm). But the question is answered in Module M (page 50 in my copy) general unit boarding tables.

Since the bases are considered one area, the shield has to be punched and enough damege scored to hit the bridge. More likely they will mission kill the base (ie hit all the important boxes) before it becomes "uncontrolled." Once mission killed, why bother messing with it further? The GMG is bigger with 41 boxes, but has 2 boxes of bridge/aux so again it is pretty damage resistant.

Besides, to even shoot/transport at/into the base will require coming into range 5 of the base and P4s and satellites. So they will suffer a minimum of a facing shield smack if not a breach. The bad guys have to worry about us using H&R too! And I sympathize with the F5G captain that has to order "shields down for transporters" while the base still has an unfired P4!

As to assembling in remote areas, if they land at noncombat rates in the BFE our troops can just sit atop their GCL/ control stations and wait for them to come to us. We are sitting atop the commanding terrain overlooking the good stuff.

If the klinks (assuming it's them we're fighting) mass in the rural area of one GCL over several turns of noncombat transporting, we can just counter amass a few more BPs. With our GDS and die roll modifier it will take more than just a F5Gs troops to overrun a decent defense planetwide, between us (the marines) control stations, ground defense stations, and bases (our comrades fighting as militia in the rubble of the bases, the last 4 such HAVE to be dug out with infantry) due to the rules on crew and BPs casualties.

And then there is the planetary militia... I never worked with National Guard/ Reserve Units (the few reservists on active duty were cool tho) in RL at sea or as a civilian DoD consultant (before becoming a professional student), but to hear the stories that my "regular" friends tell, I would assume that it takes a few turns (grin) at least for them to get their domestic situation (childcare/ kennel/ new urgent medical waiver) taken care of.

But whatever.

Oh yeah, my math on the casualty points on my earlier post may be WRONG, my D15.32 table has the line in a strange location and I'm too stupid to notice at first.

AND where are the ground fighter base ssds? Looked and haven't found them yet... so sad

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Michael C. Grafton:

Several errors.

First, while those HWS look neat, they are actually very weak.

You have five HWS and I have ten BPs. We fire at each other and each do one casualty. The next time we fire I have nine BPs with an offensive potential of 9, you have five HWS with an offensive potential of 8.

Heavy weapon squads are useful as an adjunct, but they are expensive, i.e., what it costs to buy one out right gets you two boarding parties. The two boarding parties have more staying power since it takes two casualty points to kill them both. Converting a squad to a heavy weapons squad gains you its point of firepower, but you still have a unit that is killed by one casualty point, and you could have spent that half point for a second boarding party.

Do not get me wrong, I always drag along heavy weapons squads, but I recognize that in a lot of tactical situations, like sending a bunch of them to make an assault by themselves, they tend to be a liability because they die and lose firepower so fast.

As to GDS, sorry, not free. The rule states "unless specified otherwise". The reality is that you do not beam down to a GCL and find a bunch of nice pillboxes already waiting for you. The rule allows you to adjust planetary defenses. In this case, since we are doing a basic BPV battle look at the situation, everything has to be paid for, and each individual GDS is going to cost you two BPV. If you want all six available NORMALLY in a given GCL, it is going to cost 12 points. If you want more than six (say 3 per GCS in the GCL) it is going to cost you more (in the example, the three extra systems cost you six more points for a total of 18 for the GDS in that one GCL).

GDS represent actual works, improvements to the terrain. In this case, they are only going to be there if they are paid for, otherwise they are not.

Further point, "Mission killing" a ground base is not that easy for two reasons. First, the OWNER of the Ground Base determines what is destroyed by any internals. And destroying the bridge will get you an "uncontrolled" ground base, but it will still be able to fire under the "uncontrolled" rules (and since most have only one heavy weapon . . .). In any case, the guy owning it is going to determine what is hit by any internals. He may even allocate the damage directly to "excess damage" for example. Further, all ground bases have a damage control rating of 4, which means that they can fix some things quickly. (I had an opponent one time who really surprised me by repairing his bridge box and three APRs in a disabled ground base (had an APR left, maybe something else besides the repair box, do not remember for sure), then repaired the shields (started doing it when the first APR was fixed), and on the tenth turn burned his 4 box for an EDR repair attempt on the phaser-4, and succeeded.

Oh yeah, it was my fault, but he fooled me by working on APRs and gambling on repairing the phaser-4 with EDR. Since he had to announce he was repairing the APRs and the shields, I did not bother to finish off a base that could not hurt me. And suddenly, one of the phaser-4 positions I had already silenced was back on line and firing at me. This was part of a much larger battle, I had other more important targets than a base that was "mission-killed". Actually, I could have taken the effort to kill it at any time, it just did not seem worth the effort since he was burning his repairs on things that could not hurt me. This was back in the days when there were no "power grids", so that base was entirely on its own devices, it could not draw power from other bases. NOW not only do you have to kill that phaser-4, but since it might repair itself and get power from the other bases, you need to kill it dead so that it does not come back later on.

I think that dratted phaser-4 got off two shots before I silenced it permanently, and by the way spent about two turns blasting several other bases that were going through similar repair cycles, that one having set the pattern. In a way, I was very lucky. If he had held off on rolling EDR on that first base until the others were ready to do the same thing, things MIGHT have gotten painful.

But I learned my lesson, I do not "mission kill" small ground bases, I KILL THEM PERIOD. I have long ago learned not to ignore a phaser-3, and a small fighter ground base has a DamCon of 4, enough if left alone to repair an APR and a phaser-3 twice.

Mission Kill to me means KILLED.

The Fighter Ground Bases, by the way, are on Page #79 of your Module R1 SSD book.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Background wise:

Sorry to disappoint you guys, but you were not delivered to the planet by first line starfleet ships.

You came by Convoy.

The battalion was transported in a convoy that consisted of one Large Troop Freighter (in which all of you were stuffed, along with most of the various supplies that you needed, the freighter held 1,000 of the 1,276 points of cargo needed to transport the basic battalion), one large freighter (which carried the GMG and all three GBDPs), a small freighter (which carried the two GWS), a small freighter (which carried the two FGB-S) a small freighter (which carried the two FGB-S that made up the other half of your battalion's fighter wing), a small freighter (that carried the 1,120 points of cargo that made up your second fighter squadron), and a Free Trader (that carried your remaining 276 points of cargo needed for your battalion, plus some various additional stores).

The convoy was attacked, two freighters were lost, both fortunately for you being the freighters carrying the components of your second fighter squadron. With this loss, Fleet Command directed that the deck crews, pilots, and other base personnel from the second squadron not debark (they remained aboard the Troop Ship), and returned to be re-equipped (no reason to have them standing around twiddling their thumbs). So while the 20 odd personnel on two freighters suffered some losses, at least the 120 members of your second fighter squadron were alive and well.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Background: Hey, I was just coming up with stuff to make it interesting. I didn't know we were going to go this far, which is cool.

SPP: I'll have those Comm. Ops. for ya shortly.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Under fighter supplies COmm. Ops. could I purchace a couple trucks for transporting drones to and from the casual fighter bases?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 07:27 pm: Edit

General Question:

Doesnt F&E allow regeneration of Defense Battalions on devastated planets? and increasing defenses on minor or major worlds so long as atleast one battalion is already on planet?

If the personnel were already on site, (so to speak) wouldnt the 429th be able to "regenerate" given enough time?

(please do not missunderstand, not contradicting anything provided in the back ground, just curious as to the mechanism for re-establishing defenses on devastated planets.)

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 07:33 pm: Edit

F&E provides that the "remnents" of the Defenses regenerate into an RDF, Residual Defense Factor.

This RDF are the left over troops and support personnel. it is a 0-3 factor, so it cannot do any damage to Ships, or anything else for that matter. An RDF cannot "generate a PDU". The RDF has lost most of its equipment etc.

A PDU, may "generate" a new PDU by spending 8 EP from the treasury. This simulates the expansion of the unit, using local forces, and perhaps troops and supplies delivered by transport. It is a way to improve the defenses without using a tug to deliver a new battalion.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 07:50 pm: Edit

Christopher E.Fant:

Thank you.

Seems slightly contradictory to have an "expansion" performed by a PDU on planet using "local" resources but having to pay for the new unit at the capital...does this represent the "royalty" payments for producing "copywrited" materials called PDU's?(GRIN)

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 08:24 pm: Edit

Once again, keep in mind that, to at least a certain degree, planets and planetary defenses in F&E are abstracted. Those 8EPs are likely buying much much more than a single battalion, and represent a buildup not just at planet X on the F&E map, but reinforcement of several key systems within that hex. Most plaents and their defenses in F&E are abstracted out becuase if one actually had to handle every single one the game would strangle on that fine level of detail.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Alex: Which is why there may be another game to play it out in a refined manner (which I REALLY want to see happen).

Just a quick drop in. Comm. Ops. are comming. Sorry, but I'm being pulled in many directions.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 11:18 pm: Edit

Fighter Commanders Options:25.8

22 A.D.D. rounds. (5.5)
8 Extra Deck Crews (four each FGB-S).(4)
8 Ground Attack Pods (8)
2 TypeIMW. (7.5)
(leaves 0.8. waiting for reply from SPP)
Replace one 1/2 spc. explosive module with one 1/2 spc. armor module on 11 TypeI drones.

Yes, only 11. To be initially loaded, one each, on all fighters.

If allowed I'll get four more trucks with the 0.8 left over. These will be used to transport drones to the field when an enemy attack is confirmed. One drone control pod as part of the allotement. The rest of the standard allotement is standard. The 12 combat pods will be phaser pods.

To confirm the GDS. B, C, E, and F = 3xGCS and 3xGDS (one each GCS).
A and D = 3xGCS only.