Tentative Order of Battle (no one is forced to use this if they want to consider doing the scenario, it is just a kind of fast look on my part):

Seltorian Tribunal:
Torch of Vengeance Burning task force
HVS, 2xCA, 2xCL, 4xDD, 2xFF, total 1,664 BPV (plus Commander's Options).

Jindarian Caravan
Jinbaro Felkirk's Fiefdom
DN, BCH, CA, CAD, CL, CLT, 2xDD, DDT, 2xFF, 6xMeteorite-1 Medium Bombers, 1xMedium Bomber Base, total 1,642 BPV (plus ship options and Commander's options).

I tend to be somewhat timorous of large scenarios, particularly when there is a lot of drone throwing going on. This one, while large, has only suicide shuttles as seeking weapons. The rocks (asteroid field) are fairly neutral and give both sides some chances to maneuver and "hide" from each other. Again, some ships at start with more arriving as the battle progresses on both sides. It might use two mapsheets, maybe more?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Monday, March 09, 2015 - 10:20 pm: Edit

Jindarian set up: Take the counters for the Jindarian ships (1 bomber counter represents the bombers/base) and 10 other counters as dummies. Turn them upside down and scramble them. The Jindarian player selects three counters. These are his/her start up ships. If no ships are chosen, replace and redraw. The Jindarian then places his ship on the map. Any asteroid ships may be placed by hidden placement in a asteroid hex. I am unsure if the bomber base could be hidden are not. Metal hulled ships are placed as the player wishes. Weapons status 1. No ship should be within 5 hexes (10) of each other. If more then one map then draw for each map. Would be good for teams of players each handling the ships on his/her map.

Seltorian set up: Selects up to three ships after the Jindarian player has written down the locations of his/her ships. Then places them on map edge speed max weapons status 1. Jindarian then reveals any metal hulled ships. The HVS should not be one of these ships.

Reinforcements: After any turn where a Jindarian ship is found or revealed. Both players roll a dice 6 and keep a separate running total. When a players dice total 12 or more reinforcements arrive for their side. The Jindarian draws three more counters and rolls a die for each ship counter; That gives the board edge were the ship enters. The Seltorian rolls a dice six divide by 2 rolling up. That is the number of Seltorian reinforcments; Enter from original start location.

Just a rough idea here any body else have ideas?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 10:28 am: Edit

The proposed Jindarian force may limit this scenario to the Alpha Octant only.

The Jindarians of the LMC never deployed fighters or bombers, not even after contact with the Operation Unity task forces. (Although they did adopt first-generation X-ships post-Unity, according to Module X1R.)

In Omega, it is not yet confirmed whether or not the local Jindarians (most notably those of the Freehold) developed their own fighters or bombers (or "volatile warp" PFs or X-ships) in response to local conditions. Also, it is unclear whether or not the fighters or bombers they might have built there would have been the same as those fielded by their Alpha Octant counterparts.

And while we don't yet know just where else in the Milky Way (or in which other galaxies aside from the LMC) one may find Jindarian operations, the question of what "post-Y1" technology might equally depend on who, if anyone, those Jindarians may co-exist with in those areas of space.


Also, from a Seltorian perspective, how far would a given Tribunal expedition be able to travel while using "escorting" ships not berthed in one of the Hive (or Nest) ship's hangar bays?

With four Size Class 3 ships in the arriving force, the Selts may have been either been able to stop at some waypoint (such as a globular cluster or dwarf galaxy) in order to build two more cruisers than they can otherwise carry, or perhaps have arrived in the target region early enough to get new ship production up and running prior to the Jindarian encounter.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 11:52 am: Edit

Gary Carney:

There are two scenarios, one with fiction, about Jindarian groups making contact with hostile forces while in transit. The one with fiction may make reference to construction. The one without fiction made reference to very reduced crewing levels during transit. You might check them out.

One is a monster scenario (no fiction) of encountering (if memory serves) nastier Banshees.

The other has a clash with Juggernaughts (and has fiction).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 01:50 pm: Edit

(SL280.0) Vanished in the Void (Captain's Log #39) had a Nest ship. Accompanying it were two size class 3 hulls (CA and CL) and four size class 4 hulls (DD, 3xFF) all of which would have neatly fit into its bays, but it was also accompanied by two large freighters which would not fit in its bays in addition to the warships. And note that the one surviving cruiser of this disaster managed to link up with another expedition which in theory would not have had an empty bay to take it into.

(SL288.0) Fire in the Deep (Captain's Log #41) had a Hive Ship. Accompanying it were three size class 3 hulls (3xCA) and six size class 4 hulls (6xDD). That is one more hull than the bays could nominally hold (there are only two size class 3 bays in any case, and three size class 3 hulls). It was also accompanied by three large freighters which would not fit in its bays in addition to the warships.

So, no, I do not have a problem with the ship having a full fleet complement in excess of its bay capacity.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 02:51 pm: Edit

My impression was that the bays were not intended to carry ships in them full time, they were for repair and overhaul during transit, and then production of new units after arrival.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 03:22 pm: Edit

A. David Merritt:

Given that ships carried in the bay increase the movement cost of the Nest or Hive Ship, and thus materially slow the entire force, it makes sense that ships would travel along with the Nest or Hive Ship (at least to me) rather than be carried inside.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 03:30 pm: Edit

The accompanying (speculative?) fiction in CL41 had the Hive Ship Star of Redemption face three separate Juggernaut engagements - Primus, Secondus, and Tertius - prior to the multi-ship encounter which the Hive Ship is postulated as facing in (SL288.0). Reportedly, the Selts salvaged the wreckage from each battle (to include their own destroyed hulls) as part of the preparation for the next one.

Which is not to say that the Star of Redemption had not left the home galaxy with more than its "full" complement of internally-docked ships. But it does provide an interesting case study in how much leeway each Tribunal expedition might have in the event that they are caught by hostile forces while in the midst of inter-galactic space.

On reflection, A. David Merritt's take on things make sense. I had been thinking solely of what each Hive (or Nest) ship's carrying capacity meant for the total number of warships taken for the ride, rather than how much support each HVS or NST could provide to its accompanying task force.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

In any case, can we consider your objections to the Seltorian order of battle closed? Both scenario establish that the centerpiece of the Seltorian force was not able to carry internally all of the forces present in the Seltorian order of battle internally. And, again, I am not forcing anyone to use my suggested order of battle, just noting something for consideration. Obviously a variant might use a smaller Jindarian force versus a Nest Ship and supporting ships. Another variant might replace the Seltorian ships with X-ships (and, yes, I can posit a situation where this is possible). A third variation might pit the force against an Andromedan installation.

As to the Jindarians in the Magellanic Cloud, you can make a case that they did develop bombers. While bombers are a technically a subset of fighters, they are unique in many ways and it is already established that the Jindarians in the Alpha Octant were using bombers (in Y88) before any other empire was deploying warp-powered fighters. So I do not have a problem right now with the idea that the prohibition on fighters does not include bombers.

As to the Jindarian Freehold in Omega. It is obviously an aberration of normal Jindarian operations and by definition of how the Jindarians operate does not mean all other Caravans in The Omega Octant were under the say of the Freehold. So I have no qualms about Jindarians there operating bombers either.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 04:40 pm: Edit

SPP:

Consider the Seltorian note dropped.


In the Jindarian case, I had been advised by Mike West in this topic that the Jindarian listings in Module G3 had adjusted the Meteorite-1's year in service date to Y172. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of G3 to check for myself.

But to clarify, if that volume does include a revised YIS date for the unit in question, is this the "correct" value - or did the Alpha Octant Jindarians begin fielding their first bombers in Y88 as originally posited?


So far as the Freehold goes, Bruce Graw posited an interesting suggestion for that location in his CL36 article. Essentially, he suggested it be a region of space where the "normal" process of planetary formation failed for some reason, leaving large numbers of dense asteroid fields in a relatively small area of space. This would allow a large number of Caravans to live almost cheek by jowl (by Jindarian standards), where said Caravans would interact only when called upon to defend this location from would-be interlopers. So even if there were plenty of Caravans wandering across the rest of the octant, there may not necessarily be a Freehold "government" to claim authority over them - but rather a "safe zone" for them to move into and out of, perhaps.

That said, I would welcome the deployment of fighters, bombers, "volatile warp" PFs, and X-ships by the Jindarians in Omega, in response to the introduction of equivalent units (such as Hiver Barb-1s and Alunda Remoras) by the local "sedentary" empires. My only concern was about exactly what form such fighters and bombers might take, in contrast to any equivalent attrition units built over in Alpha. (Which may be more, or less, of an issue depending on whether F1 or G3 has the right of it in the case of the M1.)

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 05:09 pm: Edit

G3 states the Metero-1 is available in Y169

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

Yep, the date was changed in Module G3 (I was looking at my old copy of Module F1 earlier). The gaff is mine.

So the bombers and the bomber base would have to be dropped from the suggested order of battle.

That changes the Jindarian suggested BPV to 1,490, given the Seltorians as proposed an edge of 176 BPV before allowing for Jindarian option boxes Commander's options on both sides. But the Seltorians will not have T-bombs as a Commander's Option, and so will likely max out on boarding parties.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 05:26 pm: Edit

SPP:

Thanks for the clarification.

On another note, perhaps a scenario variant could allow the Jindarian player to swap in a light and/or heavy strike cruiser for one or more of the asteroid ships? YG3 lists both the LCS and HCS as (pre-)Y1 units, so either (or both) types could appear anywhere one may find a given Caravan. Plus, adjusting the balance between metal-hull and asteroid ships might help make things interesting, in terms of what options the Jindos bring to the battle.

Or, could an LCS or HCS be added to the "default" fleet list, as recompense for the removed bomber and base? (Presumably the Jinbaro would be using a Command Point in F&E terms to add an extra ship to the force.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

I am the wrong person to ask. The fleet list that I put up is not a "default" fleet list. I am not hamstringing anyone by imposing "you must use this ship list" fiats. All it was was a "here is what is possible." If you want to create the scenario, you can generate your own fleet list. My fleet list could just as easily be adjusted by making some of the Seltorian size class 3 ships additional size class 4 ships. I am not married to the list (I am not even dating it). It is just a look.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 06:12 pm: Edit

R16.1F4 Jindarians do not get command points are a free scout. R16.1F3 however says that three size class 4 ships do not count against command limits.

yes the revision in G3 giveing the Jindarians there bomber's much latter made me a little unhappy. Yet does make sense in balance of tech..

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 06:57 pm: Edit

Seriously, the Seltorian order of battle might envision two Nest Ships and supporting vessels rather than a Hive Ship (I am not sure of two Hive Ships or a Hive Ship and a Nest Ship). With two Nest Ships you can have the unusual case of the Seltorians claiming the second one as their "free scout" (two Nest ships and 10 other Seltorian ships). [Well, this might require an exception to (S8.33).]

[To be clear, there is no rule excepting the Seltorian Hive or Nest ships from (G24.35), which means they have to be purchased based on their economic, not combat, value, but they are scouts so quite literally one could be claimed in the 'free scout' slot.]

As I have said before, the background can be almost anything you want, the key point is simply that historically (in any case where the Alpha Octant Empires might have learned of it) the Seltorians lost.

You could set the arrival in Y195 in the Alpha Octant (this would mean that the Seltorians had lied about when additional forces might show up) and equip both sides with fast patrol ships. (The Jindarian Caravan concerned simply never tells the story to anyone else, at least not the whole story, and it becomes a rumor going around the Alpha Octant.)

You could set the action in Y88 (the Seltorians were more closely following the Holdfast Sphere than anyone ever knew) and again the Jindarian Caravan involved never told anyone.

It is open if anyone wants to develop it. You might though run your idea by ADB so we can be sure the idea does 'work'.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 - 03:19 pm: Edit

No one is interested?

Ah well. It was an idea.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 - 03:38 pm: Edit

Perhaps it could be something to re-consider later on, should more info on the Jindarian Freehold be revealed in print someday.

I like the idea of the Omega-Jindarians adopting "volatile warp" gunboats, akin to those shown for other empires in Module Omega 5. One possible use for such units could be to help defend the Freehold against unexpected intruders from beyond the Galactic Energy Barrier.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 - 04:50 pm: Edit

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Quote:

No one is interested?

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By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

Sigh. Why must this be tied to the Freehold?

Seriously.

It is wide open, but you want to limit it to one thing, and a thing that literally, from the map location of the Freehold would make no sense. From the published Omega Octant maps the Freehold is a one hex empire that is nine hexes in from the Galactic Rim, in short not even a fast cruiser/dreadnought penetrating the energy barrier can reach them. And they have no rational reason to be investing resources in patrolling the energy barrier. Again, the set up only makes sense if the Seltorians had recently arrived, not after having spent over six months inside the Octant (one Federation & Empire game turn is six hexes travel one way, and again the Freehold is nine hexes from the edge). Let's not even address the matter that such Seltorian movement would probably have encountered other patols from other empires in that period, totally eliminating the whole point that there is no record, only rumor, of this.

Randy Blair:

From the first I was inviting someone to take the idea and develop it as their own scenario for publication rather that it being something I did. It does not seem as though anyone has any interest in claiming it and running with it. So, "Ah well. It was an idea."

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 - 05:39 pm: Edit

I'll do it, I like the idea of 'the Seltorians lied'.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 - 07:54 pm: Edit

Richard Eitzen:

To be truthful, I would have thought you would want to do one with Michael Calhoon about one of the Seltorian forces that arrived in the Andromeda Galaxy even if it was just something that was in the Alpha Octant Simulators.

I figured Gary Carney would want to do one about a Seltorian Force that arrived just at the end of "Operation Genocide" and tangled with a Branthodon force (perhaps the last large organized fleet the Branthodons had), but there is no record because . . . well even if the Branthodons won this battle, the Alunda wiped them out but for a few scattered survivors so the records of the encounter were lost.

I thought Gregory Flusche had some interest in doing the Seltorian arrivals versus the Jindarians.

And in all seriousness, there are other possible options.

Some Seltorians remained loyal to The Will. The result was that there were battles for control of the Hive and Nest Cargo Haulers. It would not be an armed ship like a Hive Ship or a Nest Ship, and definitely not like a Battlewagon or Assault Wagon, but I could see a scenario where a force of Tholian refugees who did not have a Dyson sphere crossed the void with a Cargo Hauler that remained loyal, so you would have an arriving Tholian force built around that ship (with Neo-Tholian ships with web casters).

There are options here for scenarios that have never been done, and they would be somewhat easy to play even if large because of the small numbers of seeking weapons and such.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 - 09:15 pm: Edit

My interest in the scenario is more so from the Jindarian side. As well as building a caravan. Since i have never wrote up a scenario it makes it hard for me. Sure made them up and played them. Just never wrote them down in any kind of format.

Also there should be some point were the Jindarians would disengage due to the fact that there ships are there homes and would not risk losing the whole caravan.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 - 10:00 pm: Edit

I'd be willing to take a shot in writing a fiction piece for it.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 - 11:40 pm: Edit

For what it's worth, my thinking was that the Seltorians (in this case) might have entered from either "above" or "below" the galactic plane, rather than approaching the Milky Way along the Galactic Rim.

One precedent for this seems to be with the Bolosco, who may have crossed somewhat close to their "final" destination upon their own entry to the Milky Way. According to the Bolosco OR-section, they arrived in or close to Probr space in Y96, reaching what would become their new home territory by Y99. (At this time, the Probr had yet to expand as far as the Galactic Rim.)

Of course, there is no particular reason for any Tribunal force to land on top of the Freehold, or at any other "on-map" location. I mainly suggested the Freehold above, as it would be the one place on the Omega hex map where the Jindarian side would be able to readily overwhelm such an arriving force.


That said, if the Selts (for the purposes of this discussion) were obliged to enter the galaxy along the Galactic Rim, there are other potential candidates in Omega that could allow for their swift "disappearance".

Stumbling into the Loriyill Home Stars would not work out well for the Seltorians, to give one example.

Nor would an arrival point near Souldra- or Andromedan-held territory, though at least that might make it easier for someone to stumble across a log buoy recording the event.

But then, just as the Jindarians could be in a number of different locations, the same would be true for the Andromedans. One could just as easily have, say, the Andros wipe out a Hive or Nest Ship entering the LMC during the era of Andromedan occupation, only for the evidence to be uncovered at some point after Operation Unity.