This idea came to mind when responding to another proposal, but I thought it better to put it here instead.


My copy of Captain's Log #27 is buried somewhere, so I apologize if the fast raider class history article it contains makes either of these proposals historically non-viable - but the material I do have to hand notes that the light dreadnought NCC-2164 USS Star Lion was the only one of the "splendid cats" to survive the General War.

Should this ship still be in service by Y195, my thinking was that there may have been a pair of proposals to convert the ship into an RTN-hunter, in the wake of the Darwin's revelations concerning the true nature of the Rapid Transit Network.

One proposed conversion may be as simple as replacing the FH Phaser-1s (or another pair of phasers on the ship) with a pair of special sensors. That may be enough to allow it to scan for Andromedan RTN nodes, while retaining the full photon and drone firepower for use when reaching the node itself.

A more far-reaching conversion could see the ship also be modified to carry a squadron of F-111s or A-20Fs. The additional weight of fire provided by the heavy fighters would bring the ship closer to the GVX, in terms of its ability to cause trouble for most RTN nodes.


At present, Star Fleet has the GVX and a handful of GSXs as their primary anti-RTN options. While one could assign a non-X GSC or CVL to this task, those ships would not be as fast at reaching a node once detected, nor as powerful when trying to subdue it once found.

Perhaps a conversion of the last surviving DNL might make for the most powerful non-X RTN-hunter in Star Fleet service - be it with or without a squadron of heavy fighters in tow.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Without doing any research, I am comfortable with the general idea, but let's see what Petrick says.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Star Cougar: Fed DNL 2163.
o Y169, built and assigned to 3rd Fleet on Klingon border under Fleet Captain Shoeller.
o Y171 Destroyed by Klingons SH204.
============
Star Leopard: Fed DNL 2162. Second Splendid Cat.
o Y168, built and assigned to 4th Fleet on Kzinti Border.
o Y170 made one or two illegal raids on Klingons when Federation was not in the war.
o Y171 Sent into Kzinti space.
o Damaged and repaired.
o Y182 Destroyed under unknown circumstances.
=======
Star Lion: Fed DNL 2164.
o Y170 built and assigned to 6th Fleet on Romulan border.
o Y171 Transferred to Klingon front to replace Star Cougar.
oY180 Destroyed the Romulan base that had cost the Federation Stingray and Gryphon.
o Y182 destroyed a Klingon convoy (SH231).
o Y186 Survived the General War.
========
Star Lynx: Fed DNL 2165. Intended as the fifth of the Splendid Cats, she was never built. Plans existed to build her as the second DVL or in a modular design using HDW components, but were never carried out.
========
Star Tiger: Fed DNL 2161, first of the Splendid Cats.
o Y167 built and assigned to Home Fleet.
o Y171 Rushed to Klingon border, conducted two raids, damaged while operatingin mainline combat.
o Y173 restored to service as a DVL.
o Y186 survived the General War. Conversion to SCS considered for Andromedan War but not carried out.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Would a fast unit be able to be out searching for nodes for long periods without maintainence on the engines?

In other discussions it was noted that fast ships had this problem, that they mostly sat at base waiting for a mission and couldn't be used for continual patrols and such.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 02:46 pm: Edit

So it seems that "Gary's idea" is (sort of) already mentioned (Star Tiger) but no SSD was ever done. That said, Gary's idea for converting the Star Lion is new. The two ships could be published as a pair or as three of a set of four.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 02:51 pm: Edit

I don't recall if the exact mechanics of the RTN search has been mentioned before, but I somewhat recall the need for the searching ship to remain stationary whilst running the scan. If so, that might make it somewhat easier on the fast ship's engines.

Plus, the DNL has an advantage over cruiser-sized fast ships, in that it has the same 15-box warp engines as the larger dreadnoughts.


So far as the proposed SCS conversion for the Star Tiger goes, did that suggestion include the installation of special sensors also?

If so, that would certainly help when searching for RTN nodes directly. If not, the most it would provide is a more powerful "follow-up" unit, to call upon once a particularly dangerous node was uncovered - which would still be quite useful against battle stations guarded by monitors.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 02:56 pm: Edit

I've always been intrigued by the RTN hunters: big enough to be a threat, but have to be mostly independent due to the sensitive scans.

I could definitely see DNLs being modified into this role.

Speed means they can get in and escape if necessary.
Size means they can either be a threat OR bring a threat along in the form of fighters / PFs.
Power means they can do what they need to do even if they have to power Special Sensors / lend EW / arm attrition units.

If anything I'm surprised it hasn't been discussed before.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 03:07 pm: Edit

While I could see the Feds being the first to experiment with the idea, due to their lack of X-PFTs this side of the "dark future" timeline*, the general principle could also apply to any surviving light dreadnoughts elsewhere in the Alpha Octant.

I could imagine a converted ISC DNL as making for a particularly dangerous RTN-hunter, assuming it kept its regular plasma complement in place.


*Which leads me to wonder: did the "dark future" Feds go ahead and build X-PFTs once the RTN was uncovered in the alternate timeline? I could certainly picture a "GPX" based on the GVX, but with the mech links modified to carry gunboats instead of F-111s.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 03:12 pm: Edit

It has been discussed before (Star Tiger) but perhaps is worth a chat.

I do not see the Feds starting up PF production at such a late date. It would take two or three years just to get working designs in production and two or three more to make them in quantity.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 03:17 pm: Edit

In the case of the "dark future", I was going by the Y198 Andromedan timeline entry on page 46 of Module C3A, which notes that the alt-Feds started fielding gunboats in that year.

But even then, as you say, it would take some time for them to enter widespread service, if they did so at all. Nor would there be any guarantee that they'd think to use them on RTN-hunters after alt-Y200 (when the Lyran PFT Nebulus uncovered the network, five years after the Darwin was supposed to have done).

Or that it would matter by then, given how badly the war was going for Star Fleet overall.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 03:24 pm: Edit

I stand corrected. They did begin gunboat production.

I doubt if it would be profitable, but I could conceptualize "Star Fleet Battles: Dark Future" which includes fiction, scenarios, history, and SSDs for the "real timeline" of the Andro War. Leanna might even approve it if it did not include counters.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 03:27 pm: Edit

The "lead ship" in this is the Goliath, the Kzinti Super Space Control Ship. Currently (off the top of my head) the only size class 2 mobile scout in the game.

From the available background "raiding ships" would be poor RTN hunters due to the maintenance issues already mentioned. The more time they spend puttering around, the more likely they are to suffer serious issues with their engines when they need them most.

If the engine maintenance issue was overcome, then the only question would have been the expense of the engines, I.e., every ship possible would have been equipped with the engines because the increased power to the warship is so obviously a significant force modifier. You can see this in the X-engines. You can also see this in that most ship proposals are "add X number of additional power points so the ship can move Speed 31 while throwing out maximum electronic warfare and arming all weapons."

I guess we could take the Lyran and Gorn "Space Patrol Ships" and add a pair of special sensors (at the expense of a few weapons) for RTN hunting? Why not redesign all DNs and especially space control ships with a pair of special sensors for RTN hunting and then we can dispense with the smaller ships.

I am not saying "no," I am just saying that if you want to open a can of worms (it is, nothing stops most empires from building new DNLs if this mission is viable and using them in this way, they have the designs and figuring out how to put on a few special sensors and making them into Space Control Ships should not be that difficult) we can. And nothing stops the idea of taking any existing space control ship design (or heavy carrier design) and replacing a few phasers with special sensors.

The Andromedans might protest.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 03:31 pm: Edit

The main reason why I suggested DNLs rather than standard DNs was due to their superior operational speeds. They can rush up to a node faster, and thus make it more difficult for the Andromedans to simply pack up the base and move it elsewhere.

But to clarify, are the engines on DNLs significantly different to those on a DN, or is the increased move rate due to the decrease in volume which the DNLs enjoy?

If the engines do need to be different, that could indeed make a potential RTN-hunter conversion more of a problem to maintain. But if they aren't, it might make them more viable, at least relative to a proposed RTN-hunter based on a Size Class 3 "fast" hull.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 03:34 pm: Edit

No, but there is (now) a topic for such thoughts.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 07:58 pm: Edit

The following is slightly off topic, but related to the overall thought process above.

The Romulan DemonHawk, MegaHawk and OmniHawk DNs (conjectural) could be equipped with PF Modules to accommodate scout sensors and PFs to perform this mission. However, given the limit number of Romulan CR10 ships at the time it is highly unlikely that they would be used or spared for this type of mission because of the command rating issues of the Romulan space fleet.

I realize this should probably be posted in a discussion of Romulan ships used in this purpose.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Has a modular Romulan DNL been done anywhere, or is the Shrike the only Romulan light dreadnought SSD currently in print?

It would be interesting to see a modular light dreadnought proposed for the Romulans, which drew from the DemonHawk the way that the Shrike draws from the Condor. That might make for a more viable RTN-hunter than the infamous "REDHawk", at least in terms of it being more liable to be detached from a larger force and assigned to this sort of mission.

That said, between the FireHawk-EX, the SparrowHawk-CX, and the various SparrowHawk-EXs, SparrowHawk-UXs, and SaberHawk-Xs (when in X-PFT configuration) in service, the Romulans do have a decent variety of RTN-hunters to choose from as it stands.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 08:16 pm: Edit

Why take the Gorn/Lyran SPS's (2xPF flottilas) and put special sensors on them?

Why not just use 2x PFQs instead of 2xPFS?

And if they have an extra "casual" mech link, add a 3rd.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Because the PFQ sensors don't work when docked and the PFQs do not have the endurance for the mission.

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 08:42 pm: Edit

The OminiHawk is a MC 1.25 Romulan Modular DN.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 09:31 pm: Edit

The OmniHawk is not a "true" DNL, in the sense that it is not a "fast" ship. It's more akin to the Seltorian DNL, or certain unorthodox MC 1.25 ships outside of the Alpha Octant (such as the Worb CA or Loriyill DN).

On a personal note, I'm not a big fan of the OmniHawk or MegaHawk, at least not compared to the DemonHawk design. I'd much sooner see a "true" (i.e. fast) Romulan modular light raiding dreadnought be derived from the DMH template.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 11:26 pm: Edit

It seems to me that when discussing RTN hunters, we need to keep in mind that there are two distinct roles, "finders" and "responders".

The primary requirements for a good finder are Special Sensors and enough combat power to survive. A finder doesn't have to be "fast" necessarily. In my opinion, the best finder in the game is the Kzinti Super Space Control Ship.

A responder needs combat power and speed, but doesn't really need Special Sensors. It's mission is to quickly get to a base that someone else has discovered, and kill it before the Andros can redeploy it. A powerful X-ship (especially if it also carries attrition units) or something like the Fed DVL (as is) is an excellent responder, even if it can't find the base on its own.

That being said, while the DVL is already an excellent responder for the RTN hunting mission, the modification that Gary suggests would allow it to perform either role. It thus becomes more strategically flexible and falls into the general category of ships like the Fed GVX or Romulan FireHawk-EX, both of which are both excellent finders and excellent responders.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 11:39 pm: Edit

The Romulan fast DN is the Shrike.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 11:47 pm: Edit

Speaking of the DVL, I took another look at the FMSSB entry for (R2.95). It states that the Star Tiger was destroyed by Klingon PFs in an ambush. It doesn't say what year it was lost, though.

To clarify, did the CL27 class history article change things so as to have the ship survive the General War - or was the Star Lion the only "splendid cat" left standing by the war's end?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Thomas Mathews:

The Romulan Master Star Ship Book is going through the process now, and all of the Romulan Modular Dreadnoughts had much expanded ship descriptions going through all of the possible module combinations [after which I had a nervous breakdown . . . not that YOU would care (GRIN)].

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

To be clear, while it says that in the Federation Master Star Ship Book, that was not something added to the ship description. That text was in ship description in Module J2.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 02:27 pm: Edit

SPP, I cheated and pulled up the possible combinations from what we have in the F&E books. So I understand your nervous breakdown. Take a walk with Wolf and come back in 2 hours. You should be fine then.

And for all that hard work I shall have to purchase this one first to help me with F&E related research when we get to Advanced Ops and the modular DNs.