Matthew,

Huh? What? Either you misunderstood what I posted or I misunderstood what you posted. A pinwheel is a formation of 3 Tholian ships (only certain types of ships are eligible) that can "join together" to form a (for most purposes) single unit. The principle advantage of the pinwheel is that the shields are all additive, so a pinwheel formed from 3 PCs (18 box shields each) has 54 box shields. The principle disadvantage of a pinwheel is that it is almost immobile. The power from the warp engines is available for other purposes, but not movement. So it can only move under impulse (unless towed in a tractor beam by another ship).

Now, I'm pretty sure you know all this, since you sited C14. The question is, what did you think that I thought pinwheels were? From your statement

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Instead you refer to the empty ring of hexes between globular webs.

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By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Alan i never thought of placing a pinwheel in a wedding cake. Are any web installation except for a 6 hex globe for oh my god defense. I am going to rethink some of my old web defenses.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 06:28 pm: Edit

It is fairly obvious that without web breakers in large numbers it is possible to create any kind of Tholian bulwark that in a given scenario it cannot be broken.

Strategically, the Tholian Holdfast would eventually lose if no one came to their aid.

The problem is that a long siege of any given Tholian base will eventually see it fall, for the same reason the Federation Battle Station in "Hold Until Relieved" (Captain's Log #10 fiction) was abandoned. Eventually the food will run out, fuel supplies will be exhausted and the webs will not be able to be powered any more.

The problem is that accomplishing this would tie up so much of the Klingon Empire's resources that it would become vulnerable to attack by the Hydrans, Kzintis, and Federation.

Consequently the strategic situation comes down to one that to keep their industries going the Tholians need resources from colonies that are moved by convoys (in wartime) or individual merchant vessels (in peacetime). The Tholians can no more defend every colony (or even a majority of them) heavily than the larger Federation can defend all of its colonies.

And so the dance of Logistics goes on.

Tholian bases wind up subject to attack because the Tholian fleet is often not at the bases but out "defending the Holdfast" by protecting the colonies and convoys. The Klingons have the initiative and will bide their time to attack a given Tholian base when they think it is weak enough (few or no Tholian ships currently co-located with it, or not located where they can reach it before the Klingon task force arrives, perhaps with diversionary moves to pull the base's own defending assets away, such as (after they are introduced) its fast patrol ship flotilla).

So, yes, it is possible for any empire (not just the Tholians) to have a base that is effectively immune to attack (you arrive with your 12 ship dreadnought led fleet to find a 12 ship dreadnought led defending fleet, plus the base its defending PF flotilla and fighter squadron and supporting minefield). The attacker just has to figure a way to weaken the base (isolate it from reinforcement, lure away defending forces) before his assault force arrives. The webs make a given Tholian base a little trickier, but the concept does not change.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 07:14 pm: Edit

SPP,

I agree with most of what you say, but not everything. Specifically, I disagree that "The webs make a given Tholian base a little trickier, but the concept does not change". The webs make a given Tholian base A LOT trickier.

A few days ago I posted the following in the "Partical Cannons!" topic.

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ADM,

I agree. The Seltorians are less disadvantaged than most empires but they are still disadvantaged. I would add that the dgree of disadvantage, whether for the Selts or some other attacker, varies with the BPV level. Partly this is due to the fact that the Tholians in high-BPV battles are spending less of their total points allocation on web. A 3-tier wedding cake (globular web - no asteroid anchors) costs 472.5 BPV if all webs are at full strength. If both attacker and defender have 1000 BPV, the Tholians are spending almost half their points on web (though they can voluntarily start with less-than-full-strength web) so the attackers outgun them almost 2 to 1 in "shooty stuff". But at 1500 BPV, the Tholians are only spending about a third of their allotment and the ratio of attacker shooty stuff to defender shooty stuff is about 3 to 2. At 2000 BPV (a very large scenario, obviously) the ratio is only about 4 to 3. So it gets progressively harder for the attacker to defeat a Tholian prepared defense as the scenario size increases, even if BPV is equal.

A number of years ago I posted a suggestion that the cost of pre-existing web be increased based on scenario year. As time goes by, the energy cost to maintain web decreases, meaning the Tholians spend less energy for web and therefore have more for weapons, EW, shields, movement, etc. The defense gets tougher, even though the Tholians have the same forces. The BPV cost for pre-existing web is .25 per strength point. I suggested increasing that to .4 in Y160 (when web maintenance energy costs decrease) and .5 in Y175 (when they decgrease again). But nothing ever came of my idea.

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By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Sorry Alan. I misunderstood you.. I thought you were saying those empty hexes are called a pinwheel. I now know you meant to put a pinwheel in one of those empty hexes...
Sorry

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 11:37 am: Edit

Matthew,

No problem.

SPP,

To add to my response from last night, I think the web rules are fine in the strategic sense. In fact, I believe SFU history only makes sense if the Tholians have extremely powerful defensive technology. You provided a great explanation. which I think is completely convincing, about how the Klingons, if they didn't have to use the great majority of their forces against the Hydrans, Kzinti, and Feds, could overcome the Tholians over time by attacking weak points. wearing their economy down, trying to decoy Tholian mobile forces away from the actual target, and so on. Tholian survival depends on the Klingons not being able to afford the time and resources to do this. But the disparity in total strength between the empires is huge and it seems to me that the Klingons would have been able to do it long ago unless Tholian defensive technology was inherently so powerful. So I think the Tholian web technology and the threats to the Klingons on their other borders are both necessary to explain Tholian survival. Remove either of those factors and the Tholians are conquered before the General War even starts. Tholian technology "works" at the strategic level, in terms of an SFU history that makes sense. My only complaint is that at the tactical level it is underpriced for S.8 purposes, especially after the web maintenance costs go down. As the energy costs to support web decrease, the BPV costs for pre-existing web have to increase, in my opinion, for BPV-based patrol scenarios with Tholian bases.

Just my .02 quatloos worth.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 04:55 pm: Edit

I agree with Mr Petrick above. Web defenses do make a Tholian base harder to take out. If you attacked a Klingon base that has three frigates and attending fighters. The force needed to reduce the base would be a lot less then what you would need for a web protected Tholian base with 3 PC,s and fighters.

That is good with the small size of the Tholian fleet. Leaving more ships to patrol and protect outlying areas.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 10:39 pm: Edit

The outermost ring is called the outer fence
The middle ring is the inside fence
The innermost ring is the bastion

The space between the inner & middle rings is called the parapet

The space between the middle & outer rings is the veranda.

Well, that is what I have always called them. I think I used these terms in a past CL termpaper

By Marc Elwinger (Blades) on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 09:00 pm: Edit

I searched and did not find this previously covered so I probably missed it.

Is there any reason the Tholians cannot choose to build a base in an asteroid field. Per P3.12 all hexes within 2 hexes of the asteroid counter are asteroid hexes. The Tholians can choose a location where 2 or maybe three such asteroid counters get set up closer to each other. Say the Tholians build a mobile base in the center (asteroid counter) hex with a 2 layer wedding cake web defense. The attacker needs high speed to work through the web, but needs low speed or take damage from the asteroids. Say a Klingon tried to push through the outer web. That requires higher speed then the web strength (say str 10 *1.5 >Y161=15) . They eventually push though the web, entering the outer asteroid hex. But they count at spd 16+ and take asteroid damage for every hex entered. It would take careful timing of the end of turn or emergency decel to avoid medium damage. This probably completely stops swarms of medium speed drones also.

If another asteroid counter is close enough that may offer some protection for a web tender to support a 3th layer of the wedding cake. There is a 25 bpv cost to use large asteroids as anchors, but I don’t think there is a cost to choosing to set up in the asteroid field itself, since the wedding cake Globular webs do not require anchors.

I ask my question here because it is more about astronomy then rules.

Does such a web interact with the smaller asteroids of the asteroid field at all (good or bad)? Since it probably takes 1-3 years to develop a BS/BATS in such a location and make use of it. Is the location of such an asteroid field stable enough to continue to support these advantages such a base location over years after it is built? Even with positional stabilizers, I presume the base orbits the sun and can be set up in the same orbit as the asteroids.

Per P3.41 there is presumably a large Asteroid in the center hex of an asteroid counter. If the base is not ON the (mile wide) large asteroid in a 10K mile hex, I presume the asteroid does not block any LOS’s, but it might be necessary to move the large asteroid.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, February 27, 2016 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Marc Elwinger:

I will try to take a closer look at some of the issues, but generally the Tholians would not build a base in such terrain.

It boils down to why bases are built to begin with.

The Orions will build in such terrain because they do not operate the same way as a navy trying to defend the nation. A Tholian base in such terrain would have massive gaps in its sensor sweeps. The asteroids would block the sweeps rendering long range scanning ineffectual.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 27, 2016 - 04:09 pm: Edit

What game effects would such blinded sweeps have? Would it affect weapons status?

If the Tholians built such a base in a neutral zone area, for covert observation of a neighboring empire for example... would it be a trade off that they would accept in a forward outpost against an expected enemy?

Given the premise posited by Mark Elwinger, the loss of the ability to use active scanners and sensors might actually be preferred in a covert base operating with passive emissions where the bonus for natural ECM (+2?!?) Helps augment the benefits of being in an asteroid hex.

Attacking a Tholan base in a asteroid hex is not something to be undertaken lightly... even if one could have a advantage in a modified weapons status, it would be a tricky mission.

Might want to consider it for a future battle force scenario?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Saturday, February 27, 2016 - 04:43 pm: Edit

I would think the advantage for defense of the base due to the asteroids. Would be well off set by the blocked long range scan. As the base serves a large area as a supply hub. Cargo ships as well as military ships port there. Navigate thru a asteroid field as well as placed mines. Damaged ships coming in for repair.
I would want my base accessible.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, February 27, 2016 - 04:51 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

As an example, pick up a pebble and hold that pebble at arm's length.

How much of your field of view does the pebble impact?

Now move the pebble to within a quarter of an inch of your right eye and close your left eye.

How much of your field of view is obstructed now?

(Please see the above as presented only to explain the situation and do not read any "tone" on my part. I am just trying to explain how the nearness of the asteroids to the viewing unit creates blocked areas and the closer the rocks are, the larger the area of arc they block is.)

If you put the special sensor unit inside of the asteroid field, then there are going to be huge gaps created by the nearness of the asteroids. This is blinding we are talking about here (strategic view).

It would have no real tactical effect (beyond the ECM the asteroid hexes provide between the firing unit and the target unit).

Thus when you encounter that Orion Battle Station/Base Station in an asteroid field, its sensors operate normally, but it depends more on concealment to avoid attack, unlike the border station you are in command of that is right out there in open space so that it can see as much as possible with its sensor sweeps.

If you want to put a special sensor unit for clandestine watching at the edge of an asteroid field/ring looking into enemy space, you would normally use a small ground warning station. Minimal investment, relatively easy to smuggle into place (versus the months to year long construction of a significant base). Or you would use an auxiliary scout or an exploration freighter.

The Orions would build a base in such terrain because they want to hide, but all empires only have so many credits to use, and building major bases with special sensors that would be functionally limited is a waste of money.

By Marc Elwinger (Blades) on Saturday, February 27, 2016 - 07:56 pm: Edit

1. per R7.0 Tholians never attack.
2. having the Tholians defending behind a BATS makes a fight to big for most SFB groups to play out.

So i was trying to justify why the Tholians would use a smaller base that makes such a fight justified. A mobile base that might not even be fully set up is the weakest base defense i could think of.

Since the Klingon - THolian Border Squadron does get called away occasionaly (4 power war, start of General war, Fed border conflicts, Klingon gov power strugles) That would justify the Tholians to try to advance a little into the unguarded neutral zone. I was assuming about 25% into the neutral hex (about 7 days from the BATS) in F&E scale. With the border BATS and SB sensors still in overwatch.

When the Klingons return they can mount a hasty attack with about 25% of the Border squadren and the Tholians would have MB, 3xCP, 3xCPC (functioning ad a TUG per F&E) and a web tender.

Making at base fight that is small enough to play (about Kling 7 ships (540ish pts) vs Thol 7 ships (450 pts + web power) and somewhat doctrinally reasonable.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 03:39 am: Edit

I am not convinced the Tholians would risk tempting the wrath of the Klingons (or the Romulans) by pushing into the neutral zone.

Maybe a really rich mining find? But even then, I doubt they would do something as showy as a base that takes time to assemble and disassemble. More likely they would use a pinwheel.

Instead maybe the Tholians send out some CPCs and a small escort and put up a web around a very localized find? Maybe putting a temporary phaser ground base or two on a large asteroid?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 10:13 am: Edit

One option could be to set a scenario in the aftermath of Operation Nutcracker. By that point in time, the Holdfast had lost virtually all of its major "on-map" installations outside of the capital hex, and would have had to deploy several mobile bases or operations bases as part of their efforts to replace those lost fortifications. It may not be unreasonable to imagine the Coalition sending raiding forces in order to try to disrupt such efforts.

Alternatively, there are a number of mining settlements and domed colonies across the Holdfast - each of which may need to be defended from Coalition, Seltorian, and/or Andromedan intrusion. An example of this can be seen in SFB Module R12, where scenario (SH265.0) features the last known Seltorian attack on Holdfast space.

By Marc Elwinger (Blades) on Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 11:51 am: Edit

I agree the Tholians would normally mot press into the neutral zone. But if the Border squadren was gone for 6 months with indications that it would be busy elsewhere for another year, I thought they might try it.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, February 29, 2016 - 06:59 pm: Edit

For the action being described (seriously) you might set up a few small ground bases on asteroids, use a web tender to create web around them (obviously phaser-4 and maybe phaser-1 ground bases with perhaps fighter and fast patrol ship bases if the year allows and one or more small ground warning stations. Add a repair freighter and maybe a few normal freighters (or various other small ships).

The above comes close to the concept of a small clandestine base that might be "smuggled" in and takes a minimal amount of time to set up and be operational (the most expensive thing you are risking, besides any warships intended to go on the mission launching from this base, is the web tender, but you were risking it in the original proposal).

It is assumed that this is being done because something else is intended (that may or may not have historically happened, i.e., the Klingons found out and attacked the location so the Tholian operation was never actually conducted and it is all a mystery because the Tholians are not talking about what they were doing and why . . . the Tholians are like that).

Historically the Tholians probably did do something like this back in the early days (I think sometime between Y110 and Y112, but I have not checked) when they mounted the operation to steal disruptor technology from the Klingons.

Note that the concept allows for the "base" to be relatively quickly disassembled and evacuated rather than being a permanent installation.

Seriously, the Tholians might have set up two such "bases." One was used by the "raiding/intrusion" force on its way out, the other was used by the force on its return from Klingon (or Romulan, or Federation, or (in later years) Seltorian or Inter-Stellar Concordium space. (Obviously the two "bases" are not co-located, but are perhaps as much as a Federation & Empire hex apart). The first was immediately evacuated/abandoned after the mission "launched" (since it can be expected the the Klingons or other enemy might be able to determine from where they came), and returning to friendly space somewhere else would make it more difficult for the enemy to intercept the force after it completes its mission.

Building a larger base that takes time means more vulnerability and likelihood of detection, and I (this is me, I am not saying the idea is dead) would be hesitant to risk the resources in the "real world," especially given the relatively small size of the Tholian economy.

As to the other questions that started this line, my apologies but I have not gotten to them as of yet.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 06:39 pm: Edit

In re: Positional Stabilizers and asteroid fields.

Positional Stabilizers do not like the unit in question into a fixed point of space. Many scenarios establish bases with positional stabilizers in "orbit" around a planet.

That planet itself is in orbit around its sun.

The solar system that that sun is the center of is itself in orbit around the core of its galaxy.

And that galaxy is one of many that are moving across the universe.

So positional stabilizers do not absolutely prevent a unit equipped with them from moving, they simply keep the unit from being perturbed out of its current movement situation which is defined when the stabilizer goes active. No matter the size of the unit, no other unit can grab it in a tractor beam and haul it off, and no unit it is holding in a tractor beam can move. The unit in question with locked stabilizer will maintain its position relative to what was programmed when it was established.

So, yes, you can set up a unit with locked positional stabilizers in an asteroid field, and it will orbit around the sun in the same general location as the asteroids it was set up in. This is a game thing, although the reality is that over time the general chaos of the orbits of the asteroids would eventually change the overall relationship. The positional stabilizer will remain essentially where it was and orbit in that location, but some rocks may come closer and some move away from it over time. This would be ignored for game purposes (the time interval can be very large).

A ship exiting a web hex into an asteroid hex would suffer the effects of the speed its moving. This will be the "effective speed" (C2.412). Under (C2.45) the lost speed when ENTERING the web hex would not count for asteroid damage. EXITING is another matter and yes, when the ship exits the web hex it is again moving at its higher speed from that point and would be damaged by asteroids on exiting the web hex into an asteroid hex.

In such a case, the attacking force might want to visit (G10.56) with the ships operating in pairs. Ship "A" enters the web. Ship "B" then pushes ship "A" through the web, become stuck in the web itself. The ship "A" pulls ship "B" through. This is simplistic, there are a lot of factors and variable, however the ships would benefit from the cover of the asteroids themselves to some extent. And the strength of the web and the ability of the Tholians to reinforce it are also factors.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 06:43 pm: Edit

As are the number of phaser-IV weapons available to punish such opponents.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 06:49 pm: Edit

Richard B. Eitzen:

As noted in my first response; of the extant empires, only the Orions are likely to build a significant base in such terrain because of the problems of the rocks occulding the long range scans of the base's special sensors.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Oh right, forgot. No phaser IVs. Sorry.

Orions wouldn't have the phaser-IVs either, for that matter.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 11:46 pm: Edit

So can a base with positional stabilizers orbit a black hole at 1 hex range? And by the rules I believe it is immune to all direct weapons fire due to the rules about firing through such hexes?

Ships can get in and out only by tractor beam. I may have created the invincible base.

Of course setting up such a base in the first place might prove problematic.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Wednesday, March 02, 2016 - 08:43 am: Edit

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Of course setting up such a base in the first place might prove problematic.

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By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, March 02, 2016 - 10:00 am: Edit

Game question. In the case of setting up a base with positional stabilizers around black hole... the movement can be calculated, if one started far enough away from the black hole, could the positional stabilizers be activated when its in position 1 hex away from the black hole?

Aside from the combat considerations, one would think it an advantagous place for a science outpost or a base with science modules.

Might be a special rule thing for a scenario, if it could be done. Might require a legendary science officer and a legendary helmsman!