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By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 11:25 am: Edit

I came looking for this topic, hoping to improve on my lousy performance on Sunday. Guess I am on my own.

First guess: I think Carnivons need to saber dance.

Opinions?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Lee, why not give a brief description of what happened, and let the review board debate discuss and otherwise share their insights?

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Thursday, July 09, 2015 - 11:07 pm: Edit

The very brief description is that I had a brain-fade and charged some Hydrans, with predictable results.

Post-game analysis (a.k.a. me cursing at myself on the car ride home) led me to think that I should have shot the disruptor cannon from about range 12, turned away, and launched death bolts to occupy them while I reloaded.

The longer description is that the game is the battle-group 550 scenario from CapLog 49, in which 6 abandoned freighters are up for grabs in an asteroid field. We expanded it to a 4-way, Y177, Carnivon, Hydran, Klingon, Jindarian; I ended up facing the Hydrans. I took 3 CW+ and a CWS. Turn 1 was a high-speed run toward the map join. Turn 2, I passed the Hydrans, with about 3 asteroid clusters between us, launched death bolts at the Hydran fighters (separated from their ships by an asteroid cluster), and turned to shoot at the fighters with p1s and overloaded DCs. Most of the fighters ended up damaged, some crippled, 2 dead, but they damaged one of my CW.

After that, I don't know what I was thinking, as I continued my port turn towards the Hydran ships, with my guns empty and theirs full. End result, 1 of my cruisers blew up, 1 has about half power and no p1s, the 3rd has 1 warp box. The scout is untouched.

Lessons learned, re: Carnivons and shortage of phasers:
- Should probably fight out of the #2 and #6 shields, to allow the rear p3s to pad the p1s.
- Should probably engage beyond overload range to weaken the enemy first, before charging into overload range and blasting away.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, July 10, 2015 - 06:00 am: Edit

I'm surprised that you could launch enough Death Bolts to even think of hitting a Phaser G equipped stinger flight...

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Monday, July 13, 2015 - 09:30 pm: Edit

I threw 8, and while they didn't hit much, they did score some hits. I used the ADD-equivalent and Swordfish-equivalent settings to get minor damage on most of the fighters.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 11:59 am: Edit

Lee,

It is always easy to Monday morning quarterback, and this particular scenario ripe with opportunities to offer second guesses. That said, I would like to offer some second guesses.

First, from your description it sounds like you went after the Hydrans in a classic force on force frontal assault.

The mission was to collect as many of the six freighters as you can as the loss of the cargo boxes has the potential to affect your sides ability to continue prosecuting the war effort(assuming you were playing side #1 in the scenario.)

Ideally, what your goal should have been was to recover all 6 freighters without having to to engage the Hydrans at all(at best, a difficult task to complete under the best of circumstances.)

That said, I wonder if the key to this scenario for the Carnivons is to conduct a battle of manuevers, force the Hydrans to slow down in the asteriod field , and make them lose time and ultimately the opportunity to capture the freighters.

In other words threaten to over whelm the Hydran point defenses with seeking weapons(perhaps using suicide assault shuttles combined with your death bolts, and when the Hydrans slow down to deal with seeking weapons wall, steal a march on them by accellerating (if necessary, taking voluntary damage on your own shields) as you tow the freighters to safety.

I know it will require gaming this out to get the detsils correct, but going toe to toe with Hydrans in a battering contest doesn't actually get you closer to capturing the freighters... indeed it just delays you giving the hydrans more time to complete the mission.

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Turn 3 of this game saw the quick death of the CW with only one engine box left. Meanwhile (this is a 4-player variant of the scenario), the Jindarians gathered up 4 of the freighters, the Hydrans 1, and myself 1. The Jindarians started heading for their exit corner, while the Hydrans and Klingons realized they were way out of position to chase.

T4, I charged the Jindarian DW that was towing 2 freighters and unsupported by the CAs. Very, very bad die-rolls (asteroids vs. death bolts, missed with the Heel Nipper, lousy rolls with phasers) meant that I took 8 internal hits on my CWS and only gave him half a shield's worth of damage.

Turn 5 late next month.

I did figure out that the twice-in-a-turn "emergency" launch rate of the deathbolts can be an important force multiplier. The Jindarian player was pretty scared on two occasions, before my dice intervened.

Also learned, a possible squadron tactic for the Carnivons: send one ship in close, perhaps leading a death bolt wave, to use its heel nipper to stun a target and make it easier for the DB's to hit. Obviously, that ship needs to maximize its defenses (shields, EM, ECM) on the run in, while the others concentrate on supporting it from range (EW from a scout, disruptor cannon).

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile: Yep, I went head-to-head-- I had planned something else, but somewhere lost control of myself and closed. The Hydrans and I each took over the nearest freighter, while the Jindarians spread out and grabbed 4, the Klingons didn't engage. I suspect they were hoping to avoid the initial wave of carnage and sweep up the damaged squadrons later.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 - 05:16 pm: Edit

It is too bad that you didn't face off against the Klingons. In some ways, a Carnivon force is better suited to combating the klinks than the Hydrans.

In hind sight, you might have been better served had you taken a Carrier with a squadron of superiority fighters instead of the normal mixed squadron of anti fighter/anti ship assault shuttles.

You lose some ship killing ability as carnivon fighters just are not very good, but you limit the ability of the hydran fighters to hurt your ships.

This may infuriate some people, but Carnivons were structured with a emphasis verses kzinti and lyran ships than the klingons, and little (if I recall correctly) consideration of interactions with hydrans.

The Hydrans are not historical enemies of the Carnivons, so perhaps it is not surprising that you experienced some difficulty.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 02:57 pm: Edit

Lee,

You raise some interesting issues.

The Carnivons are an challenging empire to game with, but given the limits of the technology (Death Bolts, Disrupter Cannon, Heel Nippers, fighters with out seeking weapons, not by any means helpless or hopeless.

Death Bolt to Drone, DBs are some what more resistant to damage (talking type I drones, not type IV), have a variable component to speed vs damage ability, and inherent challenges to arming/loading the DB racks.

In a sense, the DB's may represent a defined quality improvement compared to normal drones while the drone races turned to a quantitative track. (i.e. more drones instead of slightly tougher variable warhead seeking weapons which use a slightly modified guidance system.

That said, Running a Carnivon force requires more consideration of what you want to accomplish, compounded by the difficulty of using the limited technology available to the Carnivons. (IOW, HOW you use the DBs Disrupter Canons and Heel nippers is a question that needs to be answered before you place a single counter on the map.

Not all empires have to be played that way.

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Thursday, August 13, 2015 - 11:38 pm: Edit

Why better vs. Klingons?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 08:50 am: Edit

The klinks tend to have fewer drone racks than the kzintis.

Fewer racks mean less drones in total, and given that Death Bolts take more damage to destroy than most drones (not counting armored or slug drones, for the moment) Means that getting DB's through a drone defense is just less complicated where there are fewer drones.

In general, the klingons have to devote more phasers (phaser 3's and possibly some of their phaser 2's) to Death Bolt defense than either of the kzintis or the lyrans have to.

A second issue is the saber dance tactics, klingon ships are (especially before the shield refits) suited to maneuver and slash attacks. Heel nippers judiciously used, can break up klingon formations, disrupt the ability to coordinate massed attacks.

Not saying battles with the klinks are easy... just observing that a battle between your three CW's and a CWS and say three D5's and a D5 scout would have played differently than what happened with the hydrans plus fighters you had to deal with.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 01:34 am: Edit

I dunno about that. You have to get AWEFULLY CLOSE to use the heel nipper.

That is perhaps my biggest disappointment with the GW era Carnivons.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 08:49 am: Edit

Michael,
Agreed. Please understand that I meant what I said about it not being easy.

Carnivons are all about pack tactics, which means many units attacking single ships or concentrating on issolated ships in a squadron.

I am still experimenting on how to play carnivons, and at this point, my better successes all envolve using fighters for drone defense and as cover for what passes for death bolt waves.

I may change my mind when I get to add bombers to the mix... but since bombers are defense units for worlds, it just seemed wrong to start there considering how aggrssive Carnivons are supposed to be.

But YMMV.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Any thoughts on W era Carnivon on Carnivon battles? They don't even have Disruptor Cannon yet...

This is a base assault. I predict that it will be a lot of using DBs as anti DB weapons, devolving into a Phaser battle...

If you ask me, unless the attacker is overwhelming in numbers, it'll be an exercise in futility...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Mike Dowd:

Like anything it is a numbers game.

The attacking force could "escort" its death bolts (launch them and go in with them) using its phasers to destroy defensive death bolts and forcing the base to use its phasers on the attacking death bolts. (Watch the enemy's firepower, as you do not want him to kill your death bolts by blowing up one of your ships.) Do not think all of your death bolts have to arrive at one time spread out and arriving over a single turn so that one T-bomb or an exploding ship cannot reduce their numbers too much. And it also keeps the exploding ship option to a low roar (the defender cannot afford the firepower to detonate one of your ships if it will not destroy a number of death bolts equal to the investment in firepower).

The attacking force would also probably have larger access to "suicide shuttles" which can launched in the base's face after escorting in their death bolts.

The shuttles also might not be suicide shuttles, but the attacker may plan on "crash landing them aboard" the base loaded with Marines while also beaming over Marines (both will require successfully dropping a shield on the base).

This would also depend on what kind of force is defending the base, so tactics and choices will vary.

T-bombs are still useful, even if transporter range is limited, and having one ship take 10 points of transporter bomb damage might be better than having one ship be hit by three death bolts (36 points of damage).

But, again, it is all a numbers game (as are a lot of base assaults) and depends on just what the defending forces have against what the attacking force has.

And it can come down to a phaser fight between the surviving attacking ships and the base because everyone has run out of death bolts, and if you have not taken out all of the defending ships, you may just have to leave.

Remember that in this period tractors are useless for drone defense.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Remember that the range of death bolts combined with their arming allows you to launch a salvo at 24 hexes range, escort them in, and have a second salvo ready to launch at point blank range (plus those possible suicide shuttles.

This puts him in a kind of pickle. He can launch his own death bolts in counter death bolt mode, but they will make their intercepts at such long range that you can use your phasers to down them. But if he does not launch them, waiting for you to get closer, then he cannot start arming a second strike of death bolts because in the "W" (and "Y") era you cannot start arming a second death bolt in a given launcher until you have launched the currently armed death bolt.

He CAN use a wild weasel, but doing so lets you get in close to use phasers, and again launching your death bolts so that they do not all arrive at one time will complicate his situation. And once more you will have your second strike already armed (and again can be threatening him with suicide shuttles.

So, back to what I said before. It is a numbers game.

You need to measure your attack force and its capabilities against the base and its defending force and their capabilities. Find weaknesses in the enemy force you can exploit, and recognize the weaknesses in your own force he will try to exploit. Look for the strengths of your force that you can mass against his weakness, and try to shield your own weakness from his strengths when you identify them.

There is room in this for tactical thought, it is more than a simple "Death Bolts cancel out and it is a phaser duel" situation.

I do not know that I could say much more without actually knowing the two sides (all that is known to this point is that it is a Carnivon on Carnivon conflict . . . not unusual, and that one side has a base to defend. I do not even know what kind of base, much less the opposing mobile units. But based on that this and the preceding missive are my best "off the top of my head" suggestions.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm the Defender. The first of 2 battles is an approach battle, so I won't have the YBS or the YGB (Phaser 1) at my back. I have a WCL and 2 WFF reacting to a WCC, WCL and WDD. The surviving units will fight the 2nd battle over the planet.

My goal is to either destroy or mission kill 1 ship and discourage him from attacking the base if possible.

This could be a real challenge!

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 02:47 am: Edit

At the risk of sounding cowardly my advice would be to RUN in the approach battle.

You are heavily outgunned. Unless you are a tactical genius and your opponent is not mission killing one ship will probably mean more loss for you, probably both frigates.

The only reason I would accept that battle would be if I would have time to repair my ships before they could arrive. If that is the case I would try to fight a long range duel and withdraw my ships when they started to take damage and hope to hurt one enemy ship.

If you both are designing the situation in advance and want to force a lopsided battle I would suggest putting a time limit in which your ships have to delay the attack (supplies have to get through before the battle) to force you to engage.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 10:22 am: Edit

Yeah... We're using an EY freeform F&E campaign to generate scenarios from ESSC battles. I didn't have any hand in the battle, save being assigned to run the defending force, since this is a player vs. minor planet battle.

I fully agree that the intelligent thing to do would be to fall back to the planet and base, but this is what I was given.

I'm probably going to give it 2-3 turns of engagement, MAX before falling back. Speed 7 approach under the T1 DBs, launch the T2.5 DBs, then a HET and start accelerating to disengage.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 01:34 pm: Edit

Mike Dowd:

Sounds like what you want to do is "draw their fire." Depending on how the campaign is run. If there is no "re-supply" between the "approach battle" and the "battle at the base," then if you can get him to use up a lot of death bolts on your ships (avoiding being hit, even if it means using your death bolts to down his), he may not have enough firepower to defeat the base.

If re-supply is automatic, you may (honestly) simply want to retire on the base where the firepower of your squadron combined with the firepower of the base may make his attack unworkable.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, March 18, 2016 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Mike Dowd:

Whatever you do, avoid Range 3 (unless you can get there while his phasers are empty). While your phaser-2s are as good as his at that range, 10 phaser-2s at that range into one of your WFFs means it is effectively gone, while your eight phaser-2s will probably not even cripple (damage it badly, yes) his destroyer even through a rear flank shield.

Now, you do have to look for opportunities, and if one comes up to overrun one his ships at point blank range with deathbolts while he is not in position to hit back with much, you should do so. But if he knows what he is doing, stay out of decisive engagement range, as you will lose if he knows what he is doing.

Just swap a few phaser shots, and leave before your ships get hurt. You are going to need the firepower (and special sensors) of the base to beat him, your force cannot do it on its own if your opponent is at all competent.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Friday, March 18, 2016 - 11:13 pm: Edit

Fortunately, Steve, neither of us have *ever* payed this empire, let alone this era of ships for them.

There will be a chance to perform CDR and reload between scenarios, so I think that a couple of salvos, launched *after* his (to preserve the illusion that they are counter DB fire), and targeted on the lead ship before I essentially run at a speed greater than 8 is my best option to inflict *some* damage on him.

He is known to be an aggressive player, so there is a very high probability that he will try to close behind his wave. Moderate probability that he will close, leapfrogging his DB wave and use them as a second set of damage, and an almost zero chance that he will dance at range.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, March 19, 2016 - 09:57 am: Edit

Mike, the advice people have offered you is sound. You have nothing to gain in fighting the approach battle, and risk too much if you do.

Situations vary. Unless there were a compelling reason to fight...(to delay the enemy, win time for an evacuation, win time for reinforcements to arrive etc...) you have no reason to fight this battle. More importantly you risk damage or destruction to the ships that will be needed later.

Run. Fast. Do not stop until you are safe at the base...preferably behind a nice mine field.