Archive through October 13, 2015
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Tournament Zone: Tactics Discussion: Archive through October 13, 2015
By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 09:53 pm: Edit

That is good data, Matthew. Even the Ace v. Ace shows likely too weak, though the sample size is small. I may be wrong on this with my strong bias coming from my personal experience in the ship.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 07:48 pm: Edit

Regarding the LDR, since Tom's name came up - if my eroding memory does not fail me, it was actually Tom who first suggested the FA -> FX phaser-1 upgrade, many moons ago. (Fair warning: I could be misremembering).

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Thursday, June 19, 2014 - 10:13 pm: Edit

So what is the common wisdom about the Jindarian LCT? I've noticed it's exclusion specifically posted in just about every tournament, despite the fact that it's not sanctioned and wouldn't be included anyway. Is it too powerful? Is it too weak? Nobody likes how they smell?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, June 19, 2014 - 10:34 pm: Edit

It's hopelessly weak.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 07:39 am: Edit

Yeah, it is mostly a one trick pony--that one trick is shoot at R10, HET, shoot again, do some internals, and then hope it doesn't get cornered. And it always gets cornered.

The reason it always shows up on the top of the RAT page is 'cause for a few RATs i a row, it was available as a ship. And then people were like "Let's not make this available as a ship this time", and that giant note just keeps getting copied and pasted into the next RAT.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 05:41 pm: Edit

sigh and i so like the Jindo. Was wondering about it as well. Played a few battles with it and as peter said i knock in a shield and then get hosed. The trick is to circle around at speed.
Not sure of what would make it a better ship. It does have 6 shuttles with 2 being Prospecting.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Also doesn't have the power to walk and chew gum, even before it takes damage. And its always cornered.

The ship is totally hopeless without major revisions. But major revisions means a lot more play testing.

This ship may never get approved. I would not be sad if that happened.

What I would like to see is the Federation CF appear with a few minor alterations (5 batteries, for example). I think this ship could be an interesting contender, give players an alternative to the Federation CC, and it would add something to the tourney playing field (i.e., the only fast ship).

But so far I have gotten no traction for this idea.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 06:25 pm: Edit

I did see that it could move quickly. It has a 2/3 move cost, so high speed is usually not a problem. Here's a rough-draft tactic to play as the Jindo:

Turn 1, head right at the guy. At about R15 *, turn away and put him on your #5/#6. He'll have to follow. Nail him when you get to range 10, but try to do it out of your #5. He'll have to turn that shield aside or risk you turning once and nailing him with a third MRG and doing internals (and probably add phasers, as you're likely to be in overload range by then). Generally stay out of the corner, but you want to continue the turn so your offside MRGs are available to knock down another shield next turn (and probably to turn aside a shield he smashed after chasing you so long).

* If he's a Disruptor ship, he'll probably happily ding you at range 15 and then wander away. That's fine. You do more damage than he does. If he doesn't wander away, then the above still works.

On Turn 2, I figure load the MRGs as LRGs, with 2 reserve warp earmarked to upgrade those to MRGs halfway through the turn. This should give you some punch if you feel you need more than the 2 MRGs you do have loaded, such as if he waves a down shield at you. Allocate high speed and look to threaten the shield you hammered on the first turn. Late in the turn, Fire the MRGs if you haven't already, aiming to knock down another shield he needs to fire through.

Rinse. Repeat.

Use your high speed (speed 27 aught to be good, and has a nice TM) to keep from getting mugged. Your MRGs are as good as overloaded photons, but without the worry about missing the lotto. Always have a HET plotted or at least ready in batteries, in case he does manage to catch up to you.

Some thoughts:
It'd be nice if this thing had some phasers. Technically, the LCT has more phaser than the LCS that it's based off of, but it doesn't seem to have much phaser hitting power. As it stands, the standard WAX can bring more phasers to bear than this, and the WAX has one of the worse phaser arrays in the tournament. Being able to concentrate the phaser power would go a long way towards not getting mugged so much.
Prospecting shuttles are a nice addition and make the thing more unique. But they don't have much utility. The Prospecting Charge hits as hard as Ph-3, but will miss more often if they effective speed of the unit is higher. Which means they still miss if the guy is anchored. Otherwise they are non-weasel/non-suicide admins.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 07:46 pm: Edit

Even as a 2/3 mover it doesn't have enough power. I've played it several times. Doesn't work.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 10:23 pm: Edit

The ship it is based on the LCS has 4 360 phaser I and 1 LF/L 1 RF/R no phaser 3. The Tournament has 1 phaser I in each corner and 2 360. Then 2 360 phIII.
The power hurts only when you try to reload phasers and MRGs. Then you are a sitting duck.
I would love to have a better ship.. the? is how that is done. Also would there be enough players wanting it to justify the work on it.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 10:33 pm: Edit

Perhaps an option could be to base a new Jindarian tournament ship on the medium strike cruiser from Module R12 instead?

It's got a somewhat more aggressive attack posture than most metal-hull Jindarian cruisers. But at MC 3/4, it would be somewhat unorthodox relative to most pre-existing TCs.


As for the Feds, I wouldn't mind seeing a new ship based on the old heavy cruiser. The "Terran" design layout might help distinguish it from the current saucer-and-nacelle model.

That said, I'd argue that the FRA BC would do the "Terran" option even better, since it provides a broader array of weapon options (light photons, shuttle bombs, SRCs, and/or TMs) to those used by the OCA.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 11:58 pm: Edit

I'd rather see Ted's CF option. With fast ship power you can overload photons, walk, and chew gum all at once.

Don't give it any free overload power to start with and balance it around that. Or for a similar effect take the initial overload power off the Fed CA and give it more AWR to compensate.

IMAO the initial overload energy hides just how power starved the Fed CA is compared to the rest of the field, and limits Fed early tactical options as you are effectively forced to go for an early overload strike.

For the CF the fixed map and Federation turn mode mean that staying ahead of the opponent isn't trivial, but with the power it's possible. Without looking at the SSD I imagine if flying rather like the Aux.

By David Cheng (Davec) on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 02:59 pm: Edit

We had the Fast Fed at last year's Council of Five Nations tournament, and we will happily allow it in again if there is demand.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Personally, I like having only one ship from each race (or one ship from each fleet, in the case of the Romulans*). Any of the Fast [Battle]Cruisers are not sufficiently different to justify adding them to the tourney, IMHO.

I've heard rumors of some wish for a War Cruiser tourney, to counterpoint what we now have (officially) as a cruiser tourney. (Yes, I know that some races have a war cruiser instead of full-on cruiser.) A Fast Cruiser tourney doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

* Other races can make the claim of having different fleets as well. Such as the Hydran Fusion/Hellbore fleets, the WYN Aux/Fish fleets, and the Tholian Archeo/Neo fleets. Only the Hydran version has no official representation in the tourney, but the Romulans are the most notable example.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Dave, are you referring to the one that Brook was tweaking the P1 arcs on?

By David Cheng (Davec) on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 11:54 pm: Edit

Ken Kazinski will have to confirm this, as he was more involved in those details. Yes, I think it was the Brook Villa version with 3 photons and 7 Ph1s.

But I could be wrong about that.

-DC

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 09:59 pm: Edit

The Fed Fast Cruiser that was used had 3 photons, 7xP-1, 3xP-3 and a Drone-G rack.

Brook was the only one who played that ship.

By GMC (Alouette) on Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 05:39 pm: Edit

New player here. I've been playing offline. I have a few very basic questions about tournament play, based on our very limited and amateurish experience.

First, the Klingon seems to crush everybody in our experience. The 39 power and UIM are pretty much killing in every match.

Against Plasma, it just outruns the first two S EPT or standard S, threatening to close, and then does close the instant there is no S torps armed and crushes the plasma ship. Inside range 4 its direct fire seems to be pretty much killing, even through a reinforced shield. The 39 power and ability to arm standards when it needs to move fast are just hard to beat.

Against something like the Fed, it just relies on being able to hurt the Fed outside range 4. Barring really good dice, it can survive a Range 8 alpha and mug the Fed while it is reloading.

We haven't tried it out a lot against other ships (we only have the basic set so Lyrans/Tholians/Hydrans aren't an option.)

Second, we are convinced we're not doing plasma right generally. We both really enjoy playing the plasma ships and do so, but we are not very good at it. Is plasma really just that much harder? It often seems like you corner someone (finally!) and they just weasel and blast you. It's hard to power tractors and also enough speed to catch someone if they run...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 06:19 pm: Edit

GMC: We use full real names here. You will need to re-register with your real name.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 06:43 pm: Edit

>>First, the Klingon seems to crush everybody in our experience. The 39 power and UIM are pretty much killing in every match. >>

The Klingon is good. But it isn't *that* good.

>>Against Plasma, it just outruns the first two S EPT or standard S, threatening to close, and then does close the instant there is no S torps armed and crushes the plasma ship. Inside range 4 its direct fire seems to be pretty much killing, even through a reinforced shield. The 39 power and ability to arm standards when it needs to move fast are just hard to beat.>>

That is just bad plasma play. Launch an enveloper, the Klingon runs, chase it into a corner with a loaded S and 2xF, kill it in the corner. Not a slam dunk, but not that difficult.

>>Against something like the Fed, it just relies on being able to hurt the Fed outside range 4. Barring really good dice, it can survive a Range 8 alpha and mug the Fed while it is reloading. >>

Fed is rough for being a Fed.

>>Second, we are convinced we're not doing plasma right generally. We both really enjoy playing the plasma ships and do so, but we are not very good at it. Is plasma really just that much harder? It often seems like you corner someone (finally!) and they just weasel and blast you. It's hard to power tractors and also enough speed to catch someone if they run...>>

Plasma takes some practice to get good at. As the Gorn, use a first turn enveloper to push someone into a corner, chase them into the corner with an S, 2xF. If you get a good, R5 shot on a flank shield, bolt an F and fire all your phasers, launch 50 plasma at them in the corner so they have to e-decel or eat the plasma, HET and run away. As they get back up to speed, you start hitting them with envelopers from outside of R8.

Plasma ships can move fast and arm tractors with, generally speaking, more power than non plasma ships can muster most of the time.

By David Zimdars (Zimdarsdavid) on Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 09:56 pm: Edit

*dont give the KLI the oblique
*many ships have near equivalent R4 alphas - the LYR is better
*the KLI will feel 20 in worse than most - losing batts *really* hurt the KLI
*a few (ZIN) have a tough time getting internals at R4
*UIM ceases to be a benefit at R2-or under WW
*KLI loses 1P1 and 1P3 due to arcs at R1 on the #2 and #5
*occupy some of these phasers with drns or plasma
*the threat of an anchor can slow the KLI down
*close in drone launches avoid ADD
*the KLI wants to go fast and drop 3uim on you R8 turn after turn
*forcing KLI to drain phasers and batts will starve him
*bad KLI keep all disr armed, slow, and get run over
*good KLI arm only a few to get batts and phasers back
*dont give KLI the center of the map - it costs about 10pts less per turn to force the fight from the center vs map edge

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 03:48 am: Edit

From the perspective of a new player, I think plasma is just harder. However, he is playing with only Basic Set, which means no mid-turn speed changes. I'm not sure if speed changes favor plasma or work against it, but it certainly changes the game a lot. Most of the players here are advanced players who haven't played a non-introductory game without speed changes in years. It's integrated enough into the SFB part of my brain that I have a hard time even figuring out what I'd do differently.

One thing it changes is anchoring. Suppose you plot a certain speed, and your opponent plots a certain speed. Without speed changes in play, you will always be able to tell, at any moment in time, whether your opponent has the ability to escape from your anchor this turn. Subject to possible HET changing the maneuver situation (and that is not something that can happen often), without speed changes, you can tell this simply by counting hexes.

Generally, though, when it comes to anchoring, it's really more of a threat than a thing that actually happens frequently. In truth, because of their overall playstyle, the Kzinti and Hydran are more likely to actually achieve an anchor than the Gorn is! But you can rely on the anchor to limit what your opponent will do. Like, if you are there being all scary and Gorny, you can expect your opponent will not plot high speed and try to run past you at range-2. That is just not a sensible plan against an opponent who can anchor. The Klingon wants to get inside R8 where it has enough firepower to hurt you, but once there it doesn't want to get too close where you can grab him. The only anchors I have actually achieved in live tournament play have been surprise anchors, where my opponent thought he was defeating my ballet until I suddenly turned around and tractored him.

Quote:

Against Plasma, it just outruns the first two S EPT or standard S, threatening to close, and then does close the instant there is no S torps armed and crushes the plasma ship.

There are basically three overall main ways you can play plasma.
1) Anchor. Get up to R0-2, tractor the enemy, and then clobber them. And this has to happen without both of your tractors getting shot off, or so much of your weaponry that you can't do anything when you get there. Again of the anchors I have achieved in live play, I have actually only won about 1/3 of those games due to taking too much damage on the way in. But I'm special that way.
2) Ballet. Stay outside R8 where the enemy can't hurt you, whittling down the shields with plasma.
3) Not sure there's a word for it, but I've heard it referred to as the "standard game." In this, you operate at medium range, say 4-8, doing damage mostly with your phasers. Your opponent will have to run from your plasma and shoot it with his phasers, reducing the damage he can score on you, and if he overloads his heavy weapons, he'll be too slow and get hit.

In most games, you will need to switch between them depending on the situation.

Anchor. Hard to use because you need to get to R2 at the most. Anchor is a berserker game of trying to keep yourself alive just long enough to win.
Ballet. Hard to use because you need to do everything at exactly the right time. Ballet is a siege, trying to wear them down before they wear you down. The winner is whoever doesn't starve (but of power and shields, not food).
Standard game. Hard to use because you are exposing yourself to a lot of damage from direct-fire. Standard game is basically an attrition battle, simply trying to score more damage than they do until somebody is dead.

Already talked about anchor. Ballet. Unless it's plasma vs. plasma, this is more of an opening move than it is a full-game strategy, because if you are doing ballet, your opponent's #1 priority is getting out of the ballet, because given enough time they will eventually lose. With speed changes, you'll open with a fast speed, slowing down in the last third of the turn when you've already launched your plasma. Once you launch (usually an EPT from the *right* side launcher), you turn away and slow down. If your opponent continues toward you, you accelerate again (using battery power) to remain outside range 8, then they have to eat the plasma. And then you fire your other tube at them, which you turned toward them when you turned away. They probably have to eat that too. And then you can attack them and finish them off with your F-launchers, which do as much damage as their disruptors, except they have lost all their shields to the plasma.

If, on the other hand, they do the sensible thing and turn away and run from the plasma, then you turn back toward them to keep the range in that 9-15 range. On turn 2, you follow them until they decide they have had enough, eat what remains of the plasma, and come back to make another run. Except this time they're much closer to the wall, so you fire your second EPT, which they pretty much have to eat for at least 30 but more likely 44 damage (even full damage is possible if you really outmaneuvered them), and then you drop an F for them to deal with while you merrily prance away to the other side of the map to reload. You can repeat this pretty much forever until they are dead or decide to stop playing your game. Usually what this means is that turn 2 they eat the plasma (after firing phasers at it) then eat your F-torp too (maneuvering so it hits on a rear or at least off-side shield) and then on turn 3 they can attack you while your plasma is mostly empty. Turn 3 is a critical turn in a plasma vs. disruptor battle.

The trouble is this doesn't work quite as well without speed changes, because you can't do the fast-slow speed plot that makes ballet turn 1 work. You need to go fast at start of turn to get the best launching position for your plasma. You want to launch it as close to the center of the map as you can get. Once you've launched it, you can go ahead and slow down. Partly because your opponent is busy dealing with the plasma now and not chasing you, but also because you don't want to commit to running away. The farther away you run, the more ground you have to cover on turn 2. You want to just barely stay out of R8, then turn to pursue, and going slowly while your opponent decides what they are going to do about the plasma saves effort.

As a result, I would consider at least trying the standard game. If your Klingon is overloading disruptors, they're going no faster than 25 (if they don't have batteries, phasers or shuttles to power and are only overloading one disruptor in EA) but more likely they are going something like 21-23. This is not fast enough to get away from a plasma torpedo launched inside about R5. If you are firing EPTs doing 44 damage, and they are firing disruptors doing (at most) 24 damage, you can see that you will be doing significantly more damage. Even if it's spread over shields rather than concentrated, that's just a lot more damage. Firing phasers at the torpedo reduces the damage, but it also reduces their speed (or their disruptors). It might not work. But then again, it might.

Dealing with weasels. Weasels are annoying, no doubt about it. You basically have three choices dealing with weasels. First, anchor them so they can't launch any. Second, run them out of weasels. Shuttles are a limited resource, plasma isn't. Third, launch plasma in small enough increments that they don't use any until it's too late (when their shields are weak enough that you can hurt them badly with phasers and plasma bolts). The trouble here is that you have little choice over whether they choose Option 2 or Option 3. A good player will save their weasels until you are both hurting a little, then start weaseling your plasma while using the power they saved on movement to power their weapons. Another thing to consider with the Klingon specifically is that it is susceptible to damage and will lose its shuttlebay relatively early on (only the Fed, with hardly any aft hull, is in worse shape here). Some ships, such as the Hydran (with lots of hull, all center, and then a center warp engine too, and then fighter boxes to pad the weasels) are basically invulnerable to shuttle bay damage. The Klingon, with a lack of hull and nothing else to pad the shuttlebay, is not.

The Klingon is probably a powerful-seeming ship to new players because the Klingon is probably the most straightforward of all the tournament ships that can be played with just Basic Set. Everyone else has some problem. You've got the three Romulans (cloak is hard to use, and the TKE is an extremely awkward ship), the Gorn (plasma and unfocused firing arcs make it a finesse ship in practice), the Orion (fragile, and probably inadequate without any of its usual Hydran weapons), the Fed (just not very good in the first place, and extremely dependent on speed changes), the Kzinti (poor direct firepower outside of R2), and the Klingon (a solid jack of all trades with its main weakness being flimsy hull). Of this group, only the Fed has more direct-fire punch than the Klingon. In reality, the Klingon is a solid ship, but it is not an outlier. I would also mention that the WYN ships, while not technically considered part of Basic Set, use no rules that are not available there (especially the Black Shark, as the Aux, like the Orion, needs Hydran weapons for its option mounts). The WYN Shark is generally considered to be superior to the Klingon, since although the Klingon has better drones, more power, and a UIM, the WYN is incredibly resistant to damage.

The weaknesses of the Klingon include its dependence on the scatter-pack (another rule I believe you will not have as I think it is in Advanced Missions), its flimsy hull, a shortage of phaser-1s, lack of phaser padding to the front (i.e. phaser-3s firing forward so they can take damage instead of phaser-1s), and its power-hungry disruptors. Strengths include maneuverability, consistent/predictable damage output, resistance to drones, easily repaired weapons, good phaser arcs, and excellent firepower inside R3 due to the phaser-2s. The gas-guzzling disruptors and flimsy hull are a bad combination: a good punch to the gut will rob the Klingon of the power it needs to take advantage of its maneuverability and UIM. But beware, because if the battle degenerates into a "knife fight" (where both ships are at close range and too badly damaged to move) the Klingon is well-positioned for that type of fight due to its good firepower to the rear and the zero energy cost of its drones.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Sheap You did not mention string plasma. Were You fire some of Your plasma turn 1. These can be a mix of Real and pseudo. The Enveloping torp is a good way to chase him into a corner as well. Then Followed by just enough to get the weasel to pop. Close in then depending on how much plasma and suicide shuttles You have left. Basic game without speed changes means Emergency deceleration to use the wild weasel are speed 0 all turn.

Then fire more plasma if he has more then one weasel it will go next. Turn off and reload Your turn one launches will be ready before he can get back up to speed. Repeat as needed he will rub out of shuttles are eat your plasma.

Now if you fired mostly pseudo Torps turn one. Then You could if he used a wild weasel are you think he will plan for a charge in and anchor. Mostly if on turn one you chased him into a corner.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 12:51 am: Edit

Gorn Anchor, Gorn Anchor, Gorn Anchor.

My lizards are simplistic creatures.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 03:29 am: Edit

Yeah, I don't really like the real/pseudo mix on turn 1. Both real torps leaves you exposed to a stop and weasel since you won't have enough firepower left afterward. One real and one fake doesn't do enough damage, as the attacker can just plow through them without taking any internals. Both fake ... well, if the attacker just plows through them, that's even worse.

I have used the opening, but not frequently.

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