David: Would that be the radius or the diameter of the steller system?

That is what? 150 million Kilometers? that converts to 150 hexes, so at max range the fighter sweep would do 1500 tactical hexes? or 3,000 tactical hexes?

Sorry, think I messed up the numbers...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 10:47 pm: Edit

Yeah, definitely messed up...150 million Kilometers is one AU. so that would be 150 tac hexes, so 50 times 150 would be 7,500 tactical hexes...and if the diameter of the steller system is the allowed range were talking 15,000 tactical hexes.

What does that relate to time wise for a "fighter sweeP"? something under 10 hours? Long time to spend in a cockpit.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 10:49 pm: Edit

Major Wile: Had to check back on all the postings but Maj. Harding is in command of the fighters. (Which is a good thing, because in SFB life most of my fighter usage has been with Hydran fighters.) I am charitably listed as XO.

That reminder in place, I was not referring to drone load outs but the basic initial allotment of fighter pods. IIRC, SPP listed a sensor pod amongst the pods. The fighter squadron can only have one sensor pod and that one pod has to be on the fighter that would use a probe drone. Operational effectiveness of probe drones is quite limited for our defensive force.

Unfortunately, that does mean that some fighter sweeps will actually be conducted by an Admin shuttle (or GAS) possibly escorted by fighters. Akward but I can't imagine trying to rely only running a single sweep at any given time. The risks of a predictable search pattern probably exceed the risks of having one of our few shuttles caught in the open.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 11:02 pm: Edit

Regarding sweep duration, in a couple of hours, all the inner planets and moons could be checked out. After all, the fighters listed can make Earth to Saturn in 6 minutes. Completely looping along the Solar asteroid belt would take under 10 minutes, if I did the math close to correctly. Completely sweeping the Oort cloud would be take on the order of two months per circuit needed. Other planets take intermediate time frames to check out.

The amount of coverage that can be done within the confines of the system are impressive. Note: I only expect that checking of major fixed bodies will occur. Trying to search every kilometer will be beyond this forces capabilities.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 11:02 pm: Edit

Sorry for the confussion...this "exercise" has gone on too long for me to remember all the players.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 11:19 pm: Edit

Darn, slipped a decimal place. oops.

Well, that does define the "neighborhood" that the fighter wing can operate.

Anyway: Richard, the question about the Probe drones and fighter sweep was originally to see if it could be used to augment the S1 to S5 levels of Tactical Intelligence available to the 429th PDB beyond the 150 tactical hex range attainable by the Ground based warning stations.

You provided the information that the Probe drone has a 96 hex range plus the 30 hex radius range on the Probe Drone itself.

Does that mean that a fighter sweep could, if assigned the mission, travel to hex coordinate so and so, launch Probe drone, collect the information using the sensor pod, and return to base? I assume that means that there would have to be some target for the probe drone and that tac intel concerning that target could be gathered.

Unfortunately, all of the background info for this exercise indicates that there are no enemy locations within range of the fighter wing that would merit such a sweep...

I suppose an Unidentified sensor contact that did not respond to hails that was still within range of the fighters would qualify?

No, probably couldnt get Col Knight or Major Wells to sign off on that type of mission.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 12:26 am: Edit

I should correct a mistake I made. The probe drone only looks out 10 hexes; there is a 30 listed on the chart but I forgot to read the probe drone note below.

I expect that an unidentified ship in range of shuttles would be investigated. But prolonged observation by the GWS should give us critical information. If there is a large force of unidentified ships out there, sending fighters to investigate may result in loss of fighters. Should the mystery ship be a single small ship, then sending a fighter to range 20 (25 with sensor pod) to find out what race it is seems a normal part of duties. (Range 50 with ECCM shift and prolonged observation may be safer.)

Closing with 100 hexes to let the probe drone do a more detailed investigation is hardly a bad idea, just rather pricey. However, the fighter seems to be able to acquire all strategic levels of information before achieving probe drone launch distance. A military unit similar to the one postulated would most likely rely on standard Star Fleet doctrine rather than the tactics we would generate. However, if something can be looked at without suffering loss, one is generally expected to conduct the examination.

What does this mean: I want every free probe drone I can wrangle but probe drones won't improve Weapon Status or other tactical indicators. To prep a fighter with probe drone and the sensor pod to examine a specific ship ensures we are at a higher weapon status to begin with. It is possible that we could get lucky and have a patrolling fighter in exactly the correct position to ID an attacker early. The odds of that happening are about equal to every member of this BBS winning the lottery simulataneously.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 08:05 am: Edit

A hex is 10,000 KM, not one million, so an AU is 15,000 hexes.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 09:14 am: Edit

Alex: Thanks, I knew I messed up the decimal place.

SPP:Is it too early to talk about the procedure for the "exercise?"

Namely, once the BPV total is set, and you have chosen the "killer" OPFOR(GRIN) will you set a date/time for the operation to run?

NOT trying to force anyone's hand so to speak, but am genuinely curious as to what the procedure will be...

some of the "Players" are day time only, others seem available quite often...are you planning to start the ball rolling at like 9 am texas time, with say the initial contact report...followed up by the most likely responses by the "duty staff" and allow "Players" to participate "in persona"?

Or are you planning to "write" the scenario based on the record of previous posts people have made up todate?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Lot going on here and I am thus also busy.

The basic intent would be to provide on a given day the current situation. Anyone that wants to react to the data in some way consistent with his persona does so. Colonel Knight defines the specific actions, the rest of you can provide color text for your character and station. And Colonel Knight can provide his own color text for himself. I MIGHT provide some Klingon Color Text, and Jeremy Gray might provide some for the Klingons. But only Colonel Knight gets to say what weapons were fired, what weapons were launched (in the case of fighter drones) where the fighters have moved and how they deployed.

Jeremy Gray might be given a little more latitude by me on any Klingon Marine actions.

Reference Probe Drones.

I would NOT require Colonel Knight to have any, but theoretically any squadron able to use them would have a few. There are several reasons for this.

First, sometimes you will track an ion trail that goes someplace, and sending a fighter to peek around the corner could get you a dead fighter, the probe drone is cheaper. (Or maybe a fighter that went around that corner before was destroyed, so let's send a probe drone and see if we can find out what destroyed it.)

Second, monsters. Sometimes the fighters will be able to gather data on a passing monster or some other item of interest.

Prior to the fighters, an officer like Colonel Knight would have a fairly limited purview. After the fighters, his responsibilities changed somewhat. The fighters allow him to influence anything in his system, but NOT outside of the system. Any fighter patrols sent out have to be able to return to defend the planet. Before the fighters he might have sent all four of his GAS and Admin shuttles to quell a riot on a mining asteroid, or sent them to evacuate the crew of and passengers from a Tramp Steamer or what have you. Now he might send some (or all) of the fighters to drive off an Orion LR attacking a Free Trader in the system. Perhaps sending the GAS shuttles along to dock to the trader and board it to retake it from Orion marines left behind when the LR fled. Lots of things are possible.

Back to an earlier discussion about "indicators".

An example of an indicator that is possible:

Joh Fodes operates a Free Trader. He comes into your system with trade goods every so often. It is known that he traded with the Klingons when they held the planet. He arrived a week early, and was real anxious to finish his business and leave before the end of the week. He said it was because his sister was sick, and he was trying to finish this circuit on his trade route to get back to her. Funny, you did not know he had a sister, and he always seemed like such a skinflint too, but made some real good bargains this time around.

Joh, you see, is still trading with the Klingons, and a Klingon officer in the know of the planned attack, and wanting to protect his source of . . . certain trade goods . . . let Joh know that it would not be a good idea to be around Cassandra IV after a certain date . . .

So you see, it is possible, you just have to work it in [and stop making me do all the work (GRIN)]. And, before anyone asks, I knew the above even when I was pointing out the things that you MIGHT as game players thought of as indicators but are too vague. This would be specific. You may not KNOW that Joh is in a hurry to leave, or that he is still trading with the Klingons, but this is something somewhat "unusual". In the normal course of events, it is the kind of thing that is found AFTER THE DISASTER. Someone gets reamed for not having noticed this little thing, but most honestly simply bought the simpilest explanation, i.e., that Joh was simply in a hurry to get to his sick sister.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 09:01 pm: Edit

I have a vague memory of a reference to probe drones having a strategic mode where they are not under the limits of drone control.

I'm thinking there was a scenario with an Orion picking up the probe modules in Hydran space. Or maybe it was the probe drone color text. I also seem to recall a vague reference in the story "Betrayal at Oxynid V" (I think the one about the Klingons in Rom space).

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 09:32 pm: Edit

David: The scenario you recall is (SH35) though it is possible that the drones used there were Type-III frames for probe drones. (FD10.4252) Of course, we lack any ability to use Type-III drones so we can't do that.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 11:05 pm: Edit

I would like to have some probe drone but, alas, I have nothing to fire them.
It's like this: Only EW fighters can have them. An EW fighter with a standard rail can use a Type 1F Probe drone but the F-16ME doesn't have any standard rails. As noted some time back the F-16 (two seat version) is first converted to maga which adds two standard rails to two small rails (of the F-16). Then you convert the F-16M into a EWF which converts two standard rails to two small rails. Thus the F-16ME has four small rails. I cannot launch a probe drone.

The F-16CME would retain two standard rails and could launch probe drones but I prefer to save the BPV. I already spent enough on the mega fighter refits.

Lastly, there are no special rails. Perhaps after a while Starfleet Command will issue us a couple drone bases when they send the rest of the Wing.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 11:07 pm: Edit

Fascinating information on the background...do the shipping manifests of merchants like Joh Fodes get downloaded to the Commerce dept of the planet? When it comes time to decide who should get reamed for not noticing things, does that include the Intelligence officer assigned to the 429th PDB?

Not wanting to cast accusations, but just curious to know if Double checking the flight plans filed by the various merchants calling on Cassandra IV for obvious "holes" in the story would be part of the intel task? if Joh Fodes in an attempt to cover his "visits" to Klingon space places unreasonable time constraints on the aledged legal portions of the voyage...you know, something like a Free trader with a listed top speed of Warp 4 and a navigation plot of the aledged voyage requires the equivilent of warp 999 squared or something equally outlandish.

Wasnt there a poem about "for want of a nail..."
that ends in "...the battle was lost."

To me, the really helpful insights would be if the Klingon spy network was interested in the exact inventory of hand weapons and ground troops deployed on planet, or...if they had other off planet demands for information...something that could give us a hint as to what operational goals they might have in mind.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 11:45 pm: Edit

Col Knight: We can operate probe drones. The probe drone can only be carried by a fighter also carrying a sensor pod (J11.42). That fighter need not be an EWF. We can only have 1 sensor pod for the entire squadron. Our ability to use probe drones is quite limited but still extant.

(Though it could be frustrating to be down to the last few drones and have probe drones that can only be used by removing an EWP. Very expensive way to divert enemy defenses.)

Maj Wile: I doubt any public comdemnations of alleged failings of Captain Howell would follow the attack. Either he would acquit himself admirably in the ground action or have the bad luck to die. His reputation will be safe. Though I doubt the Klingons would provide easy indicators of intentions. They will probably try to find out everything about every potential target.

Checking the manifest would occur but I doubt any easily identified mistakes will happen. After the fact, when our records are compared with other records that we can determine he operated multiple false books. (Probably indicating a longer stay over at a planet while actually meeting Klingons.) Until then, determining if the person was selling to Klingons, a Klingon collabator or even a true Klingon spy will be difficult. Can't arrest everyone who might have traded with the Klingons during their occupation or before the war's start.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 11:52 pm: Edit

Col Knight:

I asked a question about use of drones in a tactical application...not demanding that we have them or wishing to indicate that the would be necessary.

Sorry about the missunderstanding.

Major Wile

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Richard Wells:

About your statement on arresting collaborators...did you ever see the movie Cassablanca?

It had a memorable line about "round up the usual suspects!"...In this case we could do worse than do some spot checks on some of the less upstanding members of the planetary transient population (taking GREAT care not to offend the sensibilities of the planets long term residents!)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 12:05 am: Edit

Note to all:

I did not mean to impune Captain Howell's name or his honor. The basis of the question was informational, no insult intended or meant.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 12:20 am: Edit

Col Knight:

Inquiry: Since the Ship traffic to Cassandra IV is limited to only a few merchants per month and the odd "tramp" freighter or free trader...would it be appropriate to "host" the masters of the vessels as a "courtesy" by issuing a dinner invitation on behalf of the 429th PDB?

Two reasons, from the previous breifing information supplied, it sounded as if the Planetary authorities are hard pressed to maintain the letter of the regulations with respect to day to day operations, courtesy may take a "back seat" to operational necessity. and Secondly, letting more of the Battalion officers become acquainted with our visitors may pay dividends in the future both in officer development and the development of personal connections with the masters and officers of the civilian ships that frequent Cassandra IV.

On a personal note, this "Joh Fodes" sounds like a n interesting character...and merchant skippers would be a line on to the "general atmosphere and local indicators".

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 12:27 am: Edit

Jeff Wile: Casablanca is different since Casablance occurs in a colony of Vichy France. I always thought "the usual suspects" referred to the repeat criminal element who are always brought in for questioning. In that case, as a diversion from searching for the true criminals.

For a historical example, consider the situation of the French fishing fleet in late 1944. During the occupation, some sold their catch to the Germans; some carried supplies to the German occupied Channel Islands; some actively spied for the Germans and tried to track Allied movements in the Channel. For obvious reasons, it was not possible to arrest all the crews of the French fishing fleet because of the resultant drop off in French food production.

We are limited by a combination of Federation law and simple practicality in who we can arrest. The most dangerous professional spy probably would not be noticed by the straightforward measures we could adopt. Most who collaborated with the Klingons did so to stay alive; I doubt the civillian population will be estactic at adopting a "Victory or Death" policy when the military does not have the same ethos.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 01:11 am: Edit

Maj. Wile: If there is occasion. However, the occasion would be unexpected as most merchant vessals call upon Cassadra IV for only a number of hours. There are some who stay for extended periods but I have found them to be...er...not the Millitary type. Us Millitary types being a bit dry for their social tastes.
And don't get me wrong for how little they know us but art dealers and parishable goods wholesellers have other things to do and would likely turn down such an invitation.

But like I said, if there is occasion...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 01:44 am: Edit

Just got through with the post assignments. Wow, there is twenty one of us. Anyway, I've been building a word doc. and when I finnish specifying the Fighter Pods I copy and paste onto the board. I expect this will be done tomorrow after lunch.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 01:48 am: Edit

SPP: I have tried to put together an SSD with all the bases and DefSats together but it keeps turning out unreadable. Do you think you could post one? Maybe could put it in the CL if an article comes of this.

Otherwise I'll ask Mike R. to do it.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 10:32 am: Edit

David Lang used to have a web tool that put together the SSDs of ground defenses (ie pick the ones you wanted and it produced the SSD).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 10:58 am: Edit

SPP-

How well does this 'Joh Fodes' hold his alcohol?

"What is on a sobermans mind is often on a drunkards tongue".

I am not much of a drinker...but somehow, I think out of an entire battalion, two or three qualified volunteers might be encouraged to uphold the "Honor of the Unit". (from what I hear, there is a sgt Hans in the local provisional unit that has developed a remarkable tollerance for Klingon Blood Wine...says he likes it better than "Glug" whatever that may be...(GRIN)