I would argue that, as the first "new" era in the Alpha Octant to be developed since the likes of Federation Commander, Starmada Unity, and A Call to Arms: Star Fleet were created, there is a golden opportunity to plan ahead, in terms of crafting X2-ship rules and SSDs for Star Fleet Battles which could be (relatively) seamlessly transitioned over to the other game systems - so that when the time comes for "X2-Ships Attack" (or whatever a would-be FC X2-ship module might be called) to be created, the rules and Ship Cards for it could "hit the ground running", as it were.

And if it turns out that a fleet-level game like ACtA:SF may one day be the best place to have a large-scale encounter between X2-ships and a Xorkaelian task force, well and good. The more options for new products for new systems, the better. (And of course, if the Shapeways project has matured by then to the point where people could play out those battles using a range of 3D-printed X2-ship and Xorkaelian miniatures, better still.)

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 04:53 pm: Edit

I do not think you need a completely new game system (as Mike Strain is suggesting).

Star Fleet Battles at present has within its workings the different time periods already, (Sub light Early Years Y1, Y2, Y3, before GW and the GW up to the later years Andromedan and ISC wars) the BPV are relative to those year periods.

Each of these eras have their own modules and books with rules for that time, and are played using Star Fleet Battles.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 05:20 pm: Edit

I am trying to remember what SVC has said about this... if I recall correctly, the various game systems must "play well together" or words to that effect. Assuming that I am remembering it correctly, then Mike Strains call for a new game system is not what is needed.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 05:47 pm: Edit

I have zero interest in and no intention of creating a new game system for X2. There is no need for one.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 06:08 pm: Edit

I'm not calling for anything. I'm saying that IMO X2 is simply never going to be 'balanced' vs GW/X1/whatever. 500 BPV of ships in Y225 will always wipe the floor with 500 BPV of ships from Y125, or Y175, and may have a pretty easy time of it if they are from Y195.

Unless X1 IS X2, just a bit more reliable and slightly deadlier. If X2 is just everybody with X1-refits, then you are basically done.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 06:19 pm: Edit

I have previously defined X2 more than well enough for you (Mike S) to know that's not it and not going to be it. That was, sort of, X1R.

And I'm not convinced that point values aren't closer to playable than you claim. Neither of us will ever convince the other so you need not repeat it endlessly.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 01:04 pm: Edit

From a background perspective, it might be useful to consider what we know, or can guess, about the state of things across the Alpha Octant at large, or within certain Alpha empires in particular, as of Y205.

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Across the octant, there is the ongoing issue of rebuilding and recovery after the General War, ISC Pacification, and Andromedan invasion.

For one thing, there is the matter of bases. If one looks at the base and planet dispositions for Y186 in F&E ISC War, factor in all of the bases deployed by the Inter-Stellar Concordium (and destroyed by the ISC in turn along the various Pacification cordons), then factor in the losses from Y188 through to Y195 from Andromedan attack (not least of which being the Romulan starbase Sanguinax, or the various fortifications at Demorak), add in any new bases built by the remaining Alpha Octant powers through to Y200, and then include any new bases needed to be built or deployed as transit points for Operation Unity (not least of which being those allowing the coreward empires to deploy their task forces to the Galactic Rim), and finally to add any "post-Unity" bases constructed across the Alpha Octant between Y203 and Y205 itself.

While there is much of this that may have to wait to be defined in F&E Andro War, that still likely leaves a number of gaps in the various empires' base networks (both on and off-map) which need to be rebuilt - or perhaps replaced with new-construction X2-tech bases, if such was required.

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Then there is the issue of Operation Unity itself. In order for Unity to take place, there would likely need to be a series of transit agreements enabling those bases (and supply routes) noted above as running from the coreward empires to the Galactic Rim, which may give the rimward empires an advantageous position at the negotiating table. For example, given that the Gorn and ISC task forces would need to pass through Romulan (or at least Romulan-claimed) space, the Constitutional Monarchy might extract certain economic concessions in the process - which, given the ongoing crisis at Remus, might be necessary in order to support the Romulans' own task force.

Once Unity is a success, the connection to the Lesser Magellanic Cloud does not stop there. As noted in the Sakharov article, a series of ongoing commitments require the long-term deployment of Alpha Octant task forces to the LMC, both to flush out any Andromedan remnants and to help the surviving indigenous empires to get back up and running. (Module X2 need not go into much detail on this, as it could perhaps be best covered in a subsequent "Module C5R".)

Of course, there are still no doubt a number of Andromedan units at large in the Alpha Octant itself. As more and more bases are brought online, the ability of the various star fleets to project the force needed to deal with them is increased.

-----

So, with five years to go until the Xorkaelians show up in force, the Alpha Octant at large still has plenty of work to do, both "at home" and out in the LMC.

For certain specific empires, there are further considerations.

As noted earlier in the thread, the Tholian Holdfast has preparations to make for its pending expedition out to the Tholiax colony in Draco.

The Lyrans may find the question of who gets to keep the former LDR province a thorny one.

While the Klingons (and Hydrans) might need to decide what, if anything, to do about the "Vudar Question".

The Romulans have the ongoing work at Remus to account for.

Those empires with "off-map" zones may have to consider how best to account for these vast new territories in their respective political systems (not least in Kzinti and Lyran space, if the Baron and Far Stars Duke gain more power over their rivals).

And there is the opportunity for certain Alpha empires which are on opposite sides of the Octant to have their ships meet - amicably or otherwise - out in the LMC.

-----

Going forward, there are a few other details which may help inform this new era.

Once the Tholians make it out to Draco in Y207, there is the question of what the subsequent two-way communication might look like. And whether or not any of the other Alpha empires know that this is happening, or what (if anything) they may do to help (or hinder) this process.

While the Xorkaelian assault will no doubt take centre stage in Y210 (which the GSX Feynman has a role in uncovering, according to Captain's Log #41), there is a note in Prime Directive Federation about a case of serious diplomatic bungling by Chairman Tinian Bock which almost led to a new war with the Klingons, some time between Y210 and Y215. (Perhaps this "incident" could be a good opportunity to get some squadron-sized X2-ship encounters written up.)

For their part, the Klingons reportedly have a series of economic reforms introduced by Emperor Korv II (according to PD Klingons); how well those might stick, or what kind of reaction there may be among more conservative elements within the Imperial bureaucracy, is another matter.

And then there is the matter of what new revelations are uncovered during the Y210s. While we know that the Sakharov has much to say on that score in Y219, there is the potential for expeditions to other regions of space (such as the Greater Magellanic Cloud or the Sargasso Storm Zone) which may reveal yet more Andromedan - and/or Xorkaelian - machinations, on top of whoever else might be in those places. Certainly there may be trouble if the Kzintis or Lyrans find out about any surviving Carnivons over in Sargasso...

And as for the Sakharov itself, there will doubtless be all sorts of reactions to its return - not least for the Gorns, who may be in for something akin to an existential crisis once they find out about what their old Paravian nemeses have been up to. (And once the Paravians themselves realize that they have lost the element of surprise, who knows what impact that might have on their own long-term plans?)

-----

With all of that, there is no shortage of new challenges, new frontiers, new stories, and new opportunities for SFB scenarios in the era of Module X2, even before we get around to the Xorkaelian Tyranny.

And of course, once X2 itself is published, it can be used as a foundation stone for a host of new products which can take in the full extent of what this new era has to offer across the ever-expanding frontiers of known space.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 02:31 pm: Edit

"As noted in the Sakharov article, a series of ongoing commitments require the long-term deployment of Alpha Octant task forces to the LMC ... to help the surviving indigenous empires to get back up and running."

This situation may be complicated if certain Alpha powers don't necessarily want the LMC powers back "up and running", or at least not unless it's their favorite client state doing the running. The whole cluster could became a mess of proxy wars and resource exploitation squabbles.

The Romulans with their broken economy may be particularly interested in making money in the zone, especially if they're left sitting on one of the old Unity supply chains.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 02:48 pm: Edit

You could also expect conflict between races with less access to the LMC due to geography (Kzinti, Lyran, Gorn) squabbling with powers that do have access (Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Hydran, ISC) over these resources. I could see the Federation-Gorn Alliance being strong enough to allow the Gorn a route to the LMC but the Kzinti and the Lyrans do not have any allies that would be willing to give them extended access without major considerations.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 05:55 pm: Edit

One of the areas I have given some thought to is the Sargasso Storm Zone.
The types of species that may be indigenous to the Zone, and the expeditions, colonies, or lost colonies in that region of space. (Writing up some small scenario and a player campaign map for the Storm Zone)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 01:09 pm: Edit

There is an SFB scenario in Captain's Log #43 (SL300) set in Y205, which features a pair of ISC ships operating out in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud. One of the scenario variants suggests using Gorn ships as stand-ins, as they used the same route over to the LMC - which is not conclusive in and of itself, but may indicate that the Romulans are willing to continue to allow both Gorn and ISC ships to pass to and from their jump-off point... for a price.


The Kzintis historically took the same route as the Federation, Tholians, and Orions in Operation Unity, so perhaps the Feds would continue to allow them to pass through their space thereafter. But then, if this means that the gateway out of Kzinti space itself is controlled by the Marquis, might that cause issues with the other Pentarchal nobles?

On the other hand, would the Holdfast bother to maintain even a token presence in the Cloud post-Unity (if only to be seen to have a presence there), or would the logistical demands of the Draco expedition be such as to demand their complete attention?

And would any of the Orion Cartels continue to send mercenary ships out to the LMC? (It would likely not be profitable to try to expand any pirate operations out there, at least not until there is something built up again for them to steal.)


In the case of the Lyrans, bear in mind that they already allow a limited degree of Klingon exploration and colonization in the Far Stars region, though it remains to be seen what state these "leased areas" are in as of Y205. Nevertheless, the precedent is there for the Klingons to enable continued Lyran access to the LMC - which, perhaps, might make thins interesting, if that gave the Foremost Duchy (which sits on the Lyran-Klingon border) an advantage over its rivals.

But then, there is the open question as to exactly whose territory the third route to the LMC lies in. If it is in Klingon space, that is one thing. But if it's in Vudar-occupied space, would that place the Vudar in a favourable position (if they get to act as "honest brokers") or a dangerous one (if the Kligons and/or Hydrans decides it would rather have those rimward provinces back after all)? And if it's in Hydran space, what kind of negotiating position might they adopt when dealing with their former oppressors?

In any case, the WYNs might find it tough to maintain access to the LMC, without the goodwill of one or more of its neighbours.


Oh, and in terms of bases, there is the matter of how many of them the Operation Unity task forces themselves might have established in the LMC proper, who happens to own and operate them, and whether or not any more need to be built as anti-Andromedan operations reach further into the Cloud post-Unity.

Simply put, neither the surviving Magellanic holdouts nor the three LMC-Jindarian caravans would be in any shape to provide much in the way of direct support, even if one were to discount the various differences in technology trees. But part of the deal which brought all sides together during Operation Unity was the promise that the Unity task forces were there to destroy the Andromedans, not to claim new territory.

Perhaps there would need to be some sort of "trusteeship zone" in the Fringe regions where the task forces first arrived, as well as various "leasing agreements" enabling certain logistical nodes to be "temporarily" placed deeper into the Cloud in support of the ongoing liberation efforts.

All of which might add to the expenses being charged back to the Alpha Octant, the questions over who is obliged to accept those charges, and who gets to benefit in the long term (in terms of prestige, at least).


Hmm... perhaps the "Trade Wars" term need not refer to outright wars per se, but might rather be used to encompass all of the various complications, "misunderstandings", and "shooting incidents" (in both the Alpha Octant and in the LMC) which spilled out of these circumstances?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Thank you for the information Gary, that is all really helpful.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 02:36 pm: Edit

Hrmm. I would put the Gorn/ISC/Romulan leg where each Empire meets. This would encourage both the ISC and the Romulans to remain open to the outside and to talk to others.

The Federation/Kzinti/Tholian leg I would put in Fed space, perhaps in the Orion Enclave area. The Feds will merrily tax all of the commerce going through it. The Tholians would likely leave the LMC after the Andro war, to try and hide from the Seltorians. Smart and ambitious Orion pirates would be setting up the basic pirate network in the LMC now, while the locals lack patrol assets.

The interesting leg would be the Hydran/Klingon/Lyran leg. The obvious place would be the Vudar hole, except neither the Vudar, nor the Klingons really want outsiders going through Vudar space. Putting it in Hydran space gives the Hydrans an income boost like the Feds above. The Klingons and Lyrans would prefer for the LMC to be a net resource sink for the Hydrans, every credit spent there is not a credit spent on defenses before the next Hydran war. Klingon space would likely give the Klingon economy enough of a boost that they may relax a bit. Lyran space gives the Lyrans to much control over Klingon economics, given the existing Far Stars arrangement. Perhaps an independent entity could be built in LDR space that has members from all four species? Not unlike the WYNs.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 09:34 pm: Edit

In terms of economics, there would need to be some form of traffic between the LMC and the Alpha octant empires... not just a drain as cargo, personel and ships headed one way towards the new territory off to the LMC territories.

Once an Empire establishes such distant colonies, it effectively creates a variation of the old Mercantilism model from the early 18th and 19th centuries real world history. Note, I am not calling for the worst aspects of that model(colonialism, Imperialism, or any for any other various "isms" that people protest about) just the basic model that calls for setting up colonies in uninhabited planets, sending metal ores, minerals and economically valuable organic cargos (luxury foods for example) back home to the Empire, and sending administrators, farmers, ranchers, miners, explorers etc to make the new colonies productive and profitable to the founding empire.

Not all empires in the Alpha octant are even necessarily equipped to establish such a mercantilist empire. The Federation, Gorn, Hydran and Orion should excel in such a situation. The Romulan (once they fix the empire after the Civil War, the great House system, if it survives) might be good as well... the Lyrans, Kzintis, Klingons all have the basic abilities to adapt. .. the WYN might be at a disadvantage as would the Tholians.

The Orion Pirates would need to seriously modify their operations...the Access points to the LMC form natural Choke points that could a hindrance to pirate operations.

And there simply is not enough information yet to figure out how the Xorks would fit into all of this.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 10:08 pm: Edit

As for the LDR, that would depend on who could project the force needed first, plus the Klingons might just aid the Lyrans to try and keep their offmap region with favorable terms (or a slight upgrade for 'policing' the area)...

For leadership (since last family was eliminated), there are the EB candidate (not favorable from Foremost, slightly negative from Royal), Foremost candidate (not favorable from EB, slight positive from Royal) and a Royal candidate (Marshal reward?), especially if done by Royal decree...

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 10:15 pm: Edit

Since the supply routes (Unity) and trade routes (post-Unity) to the LMC had to be set up from scratch, it's possible that the entire network was infiltrated and corrupted by "legit" Orions traders and corporations who got in on the ground floor.

If they are getting a piece of everything that moves either direction, they may not have needed an active pirate presence since they'd be stealing largely from themselves. The LMC may be face an increasing number of local free-lancers, on the other hand, so the Orions may have to deal with how to quietly get enforcer ships into the Cloud.

It's been noted that all those Fast Freighter supply runs left their pods behind, so the place is probably flooded with abandoned supply dumps and repair depots. There may be a massive amounts of infrastructure available to anyone who wants to operate "off the grid", whether pirate, corporate, rebel, or covert imperial.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 11:41 pm: Edit

So far as the former LDR goes, I think it would be interesting if the King-Emperor's bid for control takes a different track.

The Fire Squadron was a force sent to fight on the Federation front during the General War. Perhaps the concept of "squadrons" could be applied to other areas; say, if the King-Emperor created a "White Squadron" (a nod to the paint scheme used by the now-extinct LDR Navy), under his personal control via one of his Marshals, to liberate (and/or garrison) Demorak.

Politically, rather than attempt to offer some "spare" noble family the "poisoned chalice" of title to a re-constituted Dark Star County (as the Enemy's Blood Duke might wish for), perhaps the King-Emperor could instead declare a "one empire, two systems" model, with the province (re-)established as a Special Administrative Region. A new civilian authority could be granted a certain degree of local autonomy, with the trappings of "democratic" forms; though, as noted above, the military would remain firmly in the hands of the assigned Marshal.

Of course, Enemy's Blood would oppose this gambit, but the Klingons (who might see the presence of the King-Emperor's own forces there as a "stabilizing influence") and Hydrans (who would be loath to see Enemy's Blood become more powerful) may welcome such an arrangement. And perhaps this might even encourage the shell-shocked populace on Demorak to see the King-Emperor as both liberator and patron.

That is, of course, if the King-Emperor can find a way to make it work...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, September 10, 2017 - 11:16 am: Edit

Gary, I know you mean well, but your last post has the seeds for yet another Lyran civil war.

Might not be the way forward that you think in that every such internal division has the potential to destroy the existing social structure... not sure the star fleet universe is ready for a "Communist Lyran Workers Socialist Paradise."

Worse yet, Civil insurrections can expand in unexpected ways... the Hydrans, Kzintis and the WYNs will not like being treated as prey by clanless hordes of Lyran Hunting packs looking for a new emperor.

The Klingons will not like having to arm and escort every convoy to and from the Lyran offmap leased territories.

Just say no does not seem strong enough.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, September 11, 2017 - 12:17 am: Edit

Once the Andros are kicked out I think the LDR would be given to a war hero to form a new noble house, one without a lot of baggage. Keep some kind of representative elected body to advise the new Count with minimal powers to sop the revolutionaries living there and call it done.

The Klingo-Lyran alliance would be in a difficult situation. On one hand the Lyrans can threaten to take the Klingons survey gains while the Klingons are still militarily dominant. I think any Lyran Civil War in this period would leave Klingons travelling to and from the Far Stars region off the menu for fear the Klingons would support the other side.

I suspect the Federation-Kzinti alliance would largely collapse once the galaxy calms down. The Kzinti were never a supportive Federation ally. They refused to play nice with the Federation and Gorn on strategic objectives and the War of Return fed into the perception of the Kzinti as unreliable and volatile.

I assumed the routes to the Magellanic cloud were on the rim. If it is 'vertical' compared to the F&E map then anyone could control the Operation Unity pathways and any power could build their own pipeline to the LMC.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, September 11, 2017 - 09:30 am: Edit

What if... the script for the LDR plans used an example from the "real world" ?

Look at what ISIS/ISIL did in pulling volunteers from around the world to found a new nation.

I would suggest an old theme that never worked for various reasons in other topics of this BBS.

An Orion Pirate Kingdom, (starts humming the old Gilbert and Sullivan tune "It's good to be a Pirate King!"), based on the territory of the old LDR.

If various independent Orion Pirates each take a F&E hex in the LDR and occupy the few major and minor worlds they could be up and running in relatively short order.

If any of the slipways from the LDR survived the attacks (or could be repaired) the pirate kingdom could start production of a variant LR intended to patrol the borders, and could have what no cartel in the quadrant could hope to have...a protected shipyard producing Orion Dreadnought hulls.

Yeah, I know. Too soon for Halloween! Grin.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, September 11, 2017 - 09:55 am: Edit

I don't think pirates really have the forces to occupy a province. I suspect the the Lyrans just regain that province.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, September 11, 2017 - 10:12 am: Edit

For the pirates to survive stuck between three empires they would need to have value to them. Due to the aggression shown by most of the nations in the SFU minor powers only survive if they are either protected by something (WYN), are too expensive to wipe out (Tholians due to web), are politically protected by a major power (LDR), or whose independence is politically convenient (neutral zone worlds, maybe the Vudar).

It would not be impossible but you would need a reason that the Klingons, Lyrans, and Hydrans do not wipe out this pirate enclave which any of them could do with relative ease.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, September 11, 2017 - 12:34 pm: Edit

It would require a very powerful charismatic pirate to pull enough independents together.

Part of the reason piracy survived as long as it did in the real world from the 16th century thru portions of the 19th century was politics in Europe and America.

I imagine relations between the Hydrans, Klingons, Lyrans, WYN and the Kzintis might well allow the former LDR to fall into anarchy...which eventually resolves as petty kingdom in various F&ehexes.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, September 11, 2017 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Well, maybe, but maybe not. The Hydrans, Klingons and Lyrans historically did work together somewhat during the Andromedan invasion; it was not unknown for the Hydrans to fight alongside the Klingons attacking Andro bases in this galaxy, so it may be that there was a level of cooperation afterwards.

Perhaps with the Vudar being a buffer between the Klingons and Hydrans (to some extent), tensions between the two Empires eased during this time period. The Lyrans might also be willing to bury the hatchet if the Hydrans did not trouble them over the former LDR province.

The possible Xorkaelien invasion might also inspire these once-foes to find common cause.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Monday, September 11, 2017 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Is there even enough left of the LDR to function as a valid "empire" with the Andromedans having trashed the place just a few years earlier? Even in a bright happy timeline I don't see how the Lyrans don't just reoccupy the place Crimea-style (especially with that major system right next door).

Do the Hydrans and Klingons really have enough leverage to prevent the Lyrans from occupying Lyran space? (And do they really want the Lyrans feeding their black-ops budget to the Vudar rebellion?)