Murdock: IIRC most basic foods can be 'replicated/fabricated' but you need the base stuff to make the dish....ie, to make cornbread you need the stuff that actually goes into cornbread......being the whole thing is Magical Handwavium Tech there are substances that apparently CAN'T be 'replicated', or else the writers would have to change the script for that week.....

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 03:51 pm: Edit

Alan, I think you are making some broad assumptions that may not be true.

First, the Orion Pirates did not kill or attack everyone or everything that they came across. The existence of the Free Traitor variant of the Free Trader is an example of an Orion unit that could and did have a covert role in the star fleet universe. Unless boarded and searched, there is little direct evidence to reveal an Orion Association. Same with any other civilian ships operated by the cartels to distribute their ilgotten gains from looting. (Well, not Federation Express Couriers, those were pretty limited to the Fed Express Corporation.)

There might have been some APTs operated by the Cartels, but as SPP explained some months ago, APTs tended to be government owned.

But large and Small freighters could operate more or less in the open. Then there is the implied vast net work of Orion legitimate operations that supported the Cartels, warehouses on many different planets, agents in freight and shipping offices leaking cargo manifests and expected departure and arrival times.

The total number of people with some level of local knowledge of the Orion's system probably dwarfed the number of Orion's operating the raiders, salvage cruisers and slavers.

Most no doubt had regular jobs and picked up some extra income by cooperating with The Orion's covertly. And I have no doubt it was true in the cases of those "useful places" in the territory of the LDR as it was else where.

The Orion Pirates had to have sources for raw materials for their own production... and a food starved dilithium mine in the LDR would sell to the Orion's just for food, spare parts and fuel if that was the only customer.

The error you seem to be making is that Orion Pirates are not as dumb as you apparently think. Why kill off the dilithium mines if you can simply buy the product in exchange for some supplies and credit at the Cartels at home shopping network? Grin.

Same works in the case of all the other strategic metals and mines that exist in the star fleet universe. We know the Orion's have been getting the materials they need. Sometimes they do not have to steal it.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Jon Murdock:

One of those "background" items that is hard to quantify.

What is the cost of replicated food?

It is not free, and food provided by normal means may be cheaper (it would have to be or it would not be competitive with replicators).

But on a starship, replicated food could be a considerable cost savings because there is far less storage involved. Replicated food still requires a base stock, but that base stock is am amorphous mass that requires a minimum investment in maintenance.

But if replicators were effective and cheap, then any colony being set up would not come with food stocks, but just replicators, which is not how it is done.

You also get from some sources a concept that replicated food is not as good as food made fresh from real (as opposed to replicated0 stock.

There are things about starships we do not really want to think about. But consider that the amount of water on a starship is going to be pretty limited, and thus the water in your coffee this evening might have been in your shower this morning (to be delicate). And, yes, that thought carries further to where the "replicated scrambled eggs" you had for breakfast yesterday are now that you are eating your replicated ham sandwich for lunch today.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Jeff,

We know the Orions have been getting the materials they need, but they have been getting them in conjunction with a functioning industrial infrastructure - a situation which no longer applies in the wreckage of the former LDR. It simply makes more sense for them to operate in a region where some of that infrastructure is still intact, like Klingon or Lyran or Hydran space.

And I don't think the Orions are stupid. I think they are ruthless and would simply take anything of value from the isolated colony. Trying to get the mine operational again (since the remnant of the colony no longer has that capability) involves them either sticking around at that location, or making multiple trips to it. Either choice would increase the chances of their being engaged by a Lyran warship.

But suppose they did stick around and make a deal with the colony. Sooner or later the Lyrans will show up anyway. Do the Orions try to hold onto the (not all that valuable) mining colony in the face of actual Lyran fleet elements? That's not their style. The Orions don't defend fixed locations like a conventional empire. They raid. Once the Lyrans (or another actual military force) arrive, the Orions grab what isn't nailed down and run for it.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 05:05 pm: Edit

And Now For Something Completely Different

Well, various people have expressed their opinions on what ultimately becomes of LDR space after the Andromedans are defeated. I would like to change the topic for a while.

How powerful should X2 ships be?

SVC has stated the BPVs have to be compatible, so that a 1000 point X2 fleet is more-or-less balanced against a comparable BPV X1 (or standard tech) fleet. But (so far as I can recall) he has never expressed his opinion on how powerful individual X2 ships should be. A few years ago there was a lot of discussion about that.

Some people wanted X2 ships to be about as powerful as (or perhaps slightly more powerful) than their X1 counterparts. So a typical X2 cruiser might come in at, let's say. 250 to 300 BPV. The rationale for this was that while X2 ships were even more advanced than X1, the strategic situation was vastly different. X1 ships had their genesis during the General War and were optimized for combat (within the limitations of the original designs). But the X2 ships were built during a time when much of Alpha was in ruins from the depredations of the General War/ISC "Pacification"/Andromedan Invasion. The critical strategic imperative was rebuilding the empires' infrastructures. So X2 ships had a lower percentage of their total volume devoted to power or weapon systems, and more space devoted to things like lab, shuttlecraft, cargo, maybe even fabrication. So their overall combat capability was on the same approximate level as X1 ships, despite more advanced technology.

But other people wanted X2 ships to be combat monsters, perhaps 400 or 500 (or even higher) BPV for an X2 cruiser.

Again, so far as I can recall, SVC has not expressed himself on this specific issue. My personal preference leans toward the first option. But at least last time around, there was a lot of disagreement on this matter.

So, how powerful should X2 ships actually be?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 06:15 pm: Edit

The BPV could be about the same as the X1, or even slightly less.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Worthy Effort, Alan.

I for one think this is a conversation that should take place.

My first thought was to settle a basic question: In the decades after warp Drive was invented and put into widespread use in the quadrant, was there a point (such as X2 era) where there was an improvement in drive efficiency?

For most era's up to the point a size class X hull needed Y warp power points to move Z ssd boxes at a specified movement cost.

My suggestion, is that X2 hulls, as a result of Scientific discoveries, advanced materials, and innovative naval architecture realizes a small but measurable improvement in warp drive efficiency.

Where a General War class size class 3 X1 hull might move an average Number of W SsD boxes at up to 30 tactical hexes per turn, could a X2 hull move W+5% ssd boxes?

That would build in a 5% improvement even before adding the improved firing arcs and improved ssd box improvements.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Although Demorak went down, did the LDR government manage to survive in any meaningful way, or was it essentially destroyed?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 06:54 pm: Edit

Richard Eitzen:

When Rome went down, did the Roman government survive in any meaningful way, or was it essentially destroyed?

You get in the old problem of individuals. Local colonial governors may go their own way, or try to maintain contact with each other and keep some kind of government function (I still need to trade the ore my colony produces for the foodstuffs your colony produces as an example).

Local security forces would assume more of a military role (in the collapse of societies, various "paramilitary" organizations sometimes become the basis for local power blocks, for example Roman fire fighters became a paramilitary force maintaining some control in parts of Rome because while not trained as combatants, they had organization).

The loss of Demorak would have destroyed "central control" of the government. Subsequent attacks destroying the other battle stations as basis for some kind of authority would have further diluted that, along with the elimination of the "standing" LDR fleet.

There is always some chance that some governor somewhere managed to patch something together, and managed not to catch the interest of the Andromedans before someone else arrived. More likely. however, in the LDR case any governor who was trying would have found an Intruder (in more than one sense of the word) blowing his 'capital' to pieces, as the Andromedans would want disorganization and chaos. And the governor (beyond any colonial defenses that would be pretty pathetic versus an Intruder) would not be able to really do anything about it.

So you might find a colony or three (or maybe more) where "local government" was still functioning (managed to keep the populace from going to pieces while waiting for the Andromedans to show up), and others where everything collapsed into complete anarchy because the leaders of "the mob" were more persuasive than the "remnants of civilization."

This can happen because the political leaders lack the will to use force, until it is too late (once the mob gets completely out of hand, there probably is not enough local authority/firepower to keep them from burning down the town, and worse your remaining "enforcers" may join the mob regarding it as too risky to oppose it.

Civilizational collapse is never a pretty thing.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 07:11 pm: Edit

When I think of X2, I don't think in terms of how powerful individual ships should be. I think in terms of what designs will make ADB the most amount of profit in a generation that doesn't have the attention span for the wargames of old.
X2 should be a system that uses SFB, but bigger, stronger, faster.
Ships should be fast, with weapons that can fire more than once a turn, and pack a huge punch.
This can be done using the same BPV system.
They should be able to repair themselves quickly and easily. But at the same time, the game or scenario shouldn't last more than a couple of hours. With SFB that will be a huge design obstacle to overcome, but I know SVC and the team can do it.

In short, it has to be true to the SFU and be true to the intended audience - the next generation. Because the rest of us won't last forever.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 08:17 pm: Edit

Perhaps, these new hull designed X2 ships, for economic, or engineering reasons could only be built to optimally as size class 4. (would allow them to be bigger, stronger, and faster)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 09:09 pm: Edit

Randy, they tried that approach with supplement #2.

The result was close and hose.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Wayne, did you possibly mean something other than size class 4? SC 4 hulls are tending to be phased out of the battle lines at the end of the General War. They appeared to be too small and weak to stand up to late war and X1 designs.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 10:45 pm: Edit

Then SC 3, unless you can get the size class 4 hulls to work because of the new tech that is with X2 designs. just ideas, on how it could be.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 11:23 pm: Edit

So... do you mean that you want to outlaw all size class 3 and larger hulls in X2?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 11:36 pm: Edit

No, I thought that with the SC 4s being phased out of battle lines they could be used as the starting hull size for X2 tech builds, and a power ratio (and BPV) to other earlier ships.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 11:59 pm: Edit

I could see Wayne's suggestion working.

Size 5 and 6 units get a bunch of special rules, but size 4 doesn't. Suppose one of the main breakthroughs of X2 is that prolonged experience with work-boats and PFs lets a lot of the PF rules be applied to size 4 units with a longer flight duration.

Imagine if a size class 4 X2 ship had the following rules: 2 free ECM and ECCM, any three such units of the same empire may form a "group" a group can also include a scout and a leader variant as additional units (so up to 5), a group is a single unit for purposes of lent EW, and each ship gets double power when in combat from all power systems (the engines run hot), general reinforcement is at 1-1 power (I'm not sure about this one, it reduces the importance of maneuver quite a bit).

If you took something like a late GW (non-X) frigate group and upgraded it to these rules it would be a lot more powerful, be clearly useful in combat, but not invalidate a late GW dreadnought or X-ship.

I suspect SVC has his own ideas, but something like this could give you X2 that "played nice" with previous tech.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, September 14, 2017 - 01:16 am: Edit

Part of that extra power, say from the engines could give the X2 SC 4 hull speeds of up to 40 for a limited time perhaps. (it can still work with the X2 ships maxing at say 32 speed.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, September 14, 2017 - 01:30 am: Edit

SPP

"Most of agricultural worlds are not generally providing food stuffs to other worlds (there is some of that, of course), but are providing "luxury foods." Things that those with wealth can afford and cannot be grown elsewhere but have exotic flavors and spices."

I disagree in part. Colony A produces a modest surplus of foodstuffs. Colony B is a mining colony with a very limited ability to feed itself. B sells ore/ whatever and gets money. They buy some of A's surplus with some of those funds. Since A is only a few LY from B that trade can be via cargo skiff/ workboat...

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Thursday, September 14, 2017 - 02:26 am: Edit

Please feel free to shoot me down, but there is a trend in the 'evolutionary arms race' that is closely mirrored (either by intent, or subconsciously) in SFB.

Simply put, in real world evolution, a predator appears that is either too swift or has too powerful attacks. The prey species adapt to counter this threat, and in response the predator enhances its own attacks, triggering another round...

In SFB, W ships were slow and had decent defences and attacks (for the era).

Along comes Y. While the weapons didn't really become any more powerful, the speed and defenses of the ships got faster/stronger.

Middle Years saw the advent of better phasers and overloadable heavy weapons, but shields didn't increase much.

GW came around, and the shields increased, point defense increased, the use of attrition units (aside from the Hydrans) was introduced.

X1 popped into being, and suddenly you had weapons that exceeded most ships (fast overload, engines that could both power them and move the ships at obscene speeds, EW environments that were unthinkable 50 years prior, etc.

What to do for X2?
I'm a proponent of bringing the defensive capabilities back up to reestablish a balance. No more 'eggshells with hammers' flying around, and eliminate the 'close and hose' tactics. It would feel more like SFB in the GW, but still ensure that the only real threat to an X2 ship is another X2, and X1 (with far less staying power).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, September 14, 2017 - 08:41 am: Edit

Well... thinking about what Wayne is suggesting...

I for one would have no problem with a X2 upgrade that brought an improved size class 4 ships back into favor.

To do that means the SC4 hulls must become survivable again. Means improved shields, upgraded seeking weapon defenses and somehow eliminate the "biggest target that can be killed in a single volley" issue in squadron and fleet battles.

It would bring balance back into the game that was lost when frigate class hulls became vulnerable in combat during the later General War years.

Plus, the outlawing of size class 2 X ships at the other end of the size class spectrum means that the range of serviceable ships are limited to sc 3 cruisers only.

Not sure how to accomplish it though. Means at the very least a shield upgrade for size class 4 hulls, possibly a upgrade for point defenses as well.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, September 14, 2017 - 09:13 am: Edit

The boxes on the SSDs represent systems as well as general hull size with the full amount.
The new X2 tech systems could be smaller and more powerful, allowing for more boxes in the SC 4 hull. (add some NWO boxes)
I would imagine the X2 can do activities better and more frequently then the earlier year ships, and have a better power curve, with the faster speed.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, September 14, 2017 - 09:43 am: Edit

With the loss of Size class 2 hulls from the game from X1 forward, I wonder if X2 could bring in a usefull size class 5 ship into the system?

I know SC5 have up to now been pretty limited to skiffs, PFs, Intruders... but let's compare options.

The middle years fielded squadrons with generally three size classes, namely SC4, SC3, SC2 (plus the odd star base, monster or B-10 battleship of size class 1).

These three size classes were further broken down into sc4 escorts and frigates and destroyers, size class 3 cruisers (light and medium), and cruisers (heavy, command, battle cruiser) and dreadnoughts which are size class 2.

By making X2 deplorable ships in the battle lines range from size class 5 up to size class 3, the squadron make up can vary between sc 5 escorts , sc4 frigates and destroyers, sc3 cruisers.

If nothing is done, all squadron and fleet battles would be composed of size class 3 cruisers only.

I suggest that X2 can restore balance to the game that was lost with the reduced selection of ship types in the later years.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, September 14, 2017 - 10:22 am: Edit

I like the idea of X2 boosting defenses, it would make sense with the offensive boost of X1.

1) EW: perhaps make EM easier, perhapes a reduction in cost to use, less penalties to fire while using it, i.e. your computers compensate for your EM and reduce, or eliminate your ECM penalty. Perhaps some stealth effects, add one or two points of ECM to X2 units, yes the Orions would get these as well.

2) Shields: Bigger is an obvious first step, but make them cheaper to reinforce, and repair. Allow adjacent shields to reinforce weakened shields.

3) NWOs: The basic idea was in the old X2 module, they were flexible enough that they could be reconfigured during a scenario, which is rather excessive. However; I can see things like Labs being able to specialize in combat. On one setting they can ID more seeking weapons, on a different setting they can gather more lab points. Tractors may be set for grabbing things at a greater range, or more things per tractor at a closer range. Transporters, either longer range, or quicker recycle. etc. etc. These things would need to be set before the scenario starts, and would then be set for the duration of the scenario, they would also be limited by Weapon Status. Weapon status 0 or 1, leaves you with base X1 systems, WS 2 or 3 allows greater numbers of systems to be optimized, Legendary Officers may allow limited changes later.

4) Special Sensors: Less susceptibility to blinding, maybe ph-1s can be safely fired. Ability to affect/identify more seeking weapons, better Lab point accumulation.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, September 14, 2017 - 11:17 am: Edit

While I am still thinking in terms of X2 having double weapons effects on X0 (and 150% on X1) and X0 weapons having 50% effect on X2 (and X1 having 75% on X2, but X0 having 100% on X1 since that's grandfathered in) the idea of X2 ships firing twice per turn (12 or 16 impulses apart) is intriguing as it might inspire more dogfighting. (It might also turn the game into close-and-hose which is not good.)

Just how do I handle doing that against other X2 ships? Do X2 ships then have double defense against X2? I don't see any way to make that work.

So, never mind.