I am okay with ships going a little faster then 32 but would want it to be some kind of power intensive maneuver.

Non-X2 ships will have trouble fighting speed 40 drones and have a harder time hitting X2 ships. The BPV will hopefully account for that difficulty.

SFB painted itself into a corner a bit with a top speed. It worked in the Middle Years where going Speed 31 meant not doing much of anything else but late General War ships and X1 ships created a situation where you can go at near-max speed and still be effective. If X2 gives more power as it should then we need to bump up the speed or create something that will eat up a lot of that power or X2 ships will cruise at Speed 31 until they take damage enough to slow down.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Jon,

Part of my worry is that BPV will not, in fact, be able to "account for that difficulty". I admit again that we can't know for sure until X2 is actually written and playtested. But I fear the possibility of massive "rock/paper/scissors" issues which won't be addressable by simply fiddling with the BPV. Some R/P/S issues are inevitable in a game like SFB. But if the issues become too extensive they basically wreck the BPV system.

As far as making speeds above 32 "power intensive", look how much power John Stiff, in his 12:47 PM post, wants X2 ships to have. Not everyone would go that far. But I think most people assume X2 ships will have at least a bit more power than their X1 counterparts.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 04:58 pm: Edit

X2 need not have any additional power...the 50%/200% penalty vs x2 hulls is a massive raw damage capacity that imposes a huge benefit on X2 hulls.

Add in the improved firing arcs proposed and the X2 hulls become far more capable of both inflicting damage as well as shrugging off any lesser tech weaponry.

Perhaps what we should be doing is look at improving non combat systems that are not benefitting from the 50%/200% penalty thingy for weapons.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 06:10 pm: Edit

All multi turn arming weapons may be armed in one turn without penalty, including overloads.
--sorry, overloads should have a penalty if multi-turn weapon...

All APR are AWR.
-- OK

All batteries hold 5 points of power.
-- OK

X2 ships have more APR, BATTERY, LAB, SHUTTLE, TRAN, TRACTOR, HULL. In particular, +2 APR, +2 BATTERY, +2 LAB, +2 SHUTTLE, +2 TRAN, +2 TRACTOR, and double the HULL.
-- maybe, can't double the hull unless you double the ship, it isn't magical

X2 ships have more WARP. In particular +10 Warp.
-- maybe

X2 ships have more IMPULSE. In particular +2 IMPULSE.
-- possible

All X2 Special Sensors are shielded. I.E. they are not blinded by weapons fire.
-- for scouts, half the blind time or allow for ph-2 fire (downgrade)

All X2 ships have a minimum of 2 shielded Special Sensors.
-- No, just no...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 06:57 pm: Edit

"All APR are AWR."

Why?

Seriously.

The only purpose I MIGHT need an AWR on my trusty Klingon (or Kzinti, or Lyran, or Hydran, or Romulan, or Gorn, or etc.) ship is if I need to arm an anti-matter probe or a suicide shuttle.

Typically on such ships the primary purpose of an APR (vice an AWR) is to provide a little extra power for normal operating conditions, i.e., an APR is perfectly adequate for firing a disruptor, or a phaser, or operating a tractor beam or several transporters, or reinforcing a shield, or providing electronic warfare, or just plain old life support.

I can understand the Federation (photon torpedoes), WYN ships that take photon torpedoes (and the few Orion ships that have auxiliary reactors an take photon torpedoes), Tholians (the ones that are armed with photon torpedoes), Jindarians (warp-augmented rail guns) might want these.

But I really do not understand the economic reason to invest in AWRs when APRs are already adequate for most empires. If you need to arm a suicide shuttle, you use the APRs to recharge the phaser capacitors and/or arm the disruptors and/or operate the ship's systems and/or etc. while using power from the warp engines to arm the shuttle.

If you are allowed to arm a probe as a weapon (outside of a monster scenario), the damage level of your ship where that is allowed is such that your APRs/AWRs have already been destroyed, so the investment was wasted for this purpose in any case.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Clearly the War Mongering Federation War Profiteers have successfully convinced the rest of the galaxy that they must have the iAWR to be taken seriously, only second rate Empires make do with the Android APR.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 07:54 pm: Edit

If all that is desired for X2 is basically bigger ships with more power, then why not just:

Take Empire's existing dreadnought, declare it to be a size class 3 second generation X-ship, install all of the existing X1 technology, and change the movement cost to the same as for a light dreadnought (1.25).

Take empire's existing heavy battlecruiser, declare it to be a second generation light cruiser X-ship, install all of the existing X1 technology, and change the movement cost to that of a light cruiser (0.67).

Take empire's existing war cruiser, declare it to be a second generation X-ship destroyer, install all of the existing X1 technology, and change the movement cost to that of a destroyer (0.50).

Take empire's existing war destroyer, declare it to be a second generation X-ship frigate, install all of the existing X1 technology, and change the movement cost to that of a frigate (0.33).

Seriously, I do not think bigger ships are the answer. Frankly, I am more in favor of difference in how defenses work. Maybe (to make use of the "iAWR" concept) maybe the advanced weapons and shields require "warp power" to function in the X2 mode, and without that they do not function in X2 mode (and the warp is an "extra cost," not a "normal cost," that is to say my disruptor still arms for two points of power, four for an overload, but to add to the punch (in either level) an extra point of power that must be warp must be provided.

Maybe X2 EW is only as effective against other X2 ships as it is for non X ships (four points of power gets a shift of two), but has a doubled effect versus non-X ships making it more effective against them and making it easier for a X2 ship to use both kinds simultaneously.

Something that is "new" but "the same" so that a progression in improvement can be seen.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 08:24 pm: Edit

I agree with you SPP. Your train of thought with X2 can lead to fresh possibilities.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 09:24 pm: Edit

Funny, after SPP's post I flashed onto simply using base hulls with all refits and declaring them X2.

IE, take Fed CA with all the GW refits, add in X-batteries, call it X2, yer done.

With 200% damage to X1/X0,and only taking 50% damage in return, would still be a monster of a ship.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Alan, we KNOW phaser-1 are harder to build than phaser-2, that's why phaser-2 ever existed.

Why in the world would everyone eventually having upgraded to phaser-1 mean that everyone uses X2-phaser-1?

Why didn't the Klingons originally upgrade every phaser to a phaser-1 around Y150? Same reason. Shortage of manufacturing capacity at the appropriate quality.

An X2-phaser-2 is STILL, just by virtue of a x2/x.5 rule, a MASSIVE upgrade over an X1-phaser-1, so installing the new phasers is an upgrade whether they are ph-1 or ph-2 based. Not everyone gets the best upgrade.

Asking why not everyone gets the best possible upgrade is pointless, we've had that in the rules from day one.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 09:38 pm: Edit

There are several things SPP posted that I think should be examined more closely.

For example, if X2 ships do indeed get the 50%/200% penalty vs non X2 ships, could the reason be because both phasers and shields support power structure require warp power to function?

Would it make sense to make it a rule that warp power alone justifies the penalty? (Sub idea for future scenarios... in those cases where an X2 ship has no warp power, the ship no longer receives the benefit of the 50%/200% penalty vs non X2 ships?)

To take the idea one step further...if warp power is required to fill the phaser capacitors, and the ship has enough warp power allocated, then the ships phasers function as phaser 1s. If any kind of power other than warp power is used, the ships phasers function as phaser 2s...

The same could be used for tractors and trans porters. Double normal range for X2 ships using warp power. Normal range if non warp power is used.

It would provide a justification for the enhanced x2 abilities, plus a handicap if the ship is damaged or crippled or short of warp power... especially if it had to dump the warp necelles.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 10:04 pm: Edit

I would say, Jeff, that since extended tractors are an optional rule, simply change it so X2 warp-powered tractors are simply 1:1 regardless of the range (which would be max of three, if the optional rule is used). Tremendous advantage if using the optional rule, not so much if sticking to standard.

And as for transporters, let the X2 version simply operate at double the rate of the previous era, range 5, standard energy cost. An improvement, but not a direct copy of the X1 version.

As for the 'warp-powered phasers' thing....interesting. Shouldn't be much of a problem since most ships have around 90% of their total power as warp/AWR, usually.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 11:23 pm: Edit

Sounds fair. I just hoped to push the discussion thru the door SPP opened.

Your suggestion re: tractor beams energy use 1:1 would leave the existing tractor function intact but reduce the energy consumption better for X2... I would like to see how it play tests.

Same with your transporter suggestion.

I hope there will be more discussion on the warp powered phaser thing. Perhaps some one can make further suggestions?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 06:33 am: Edit

One other thought:

Make all empires probes launch able from a Shuttle box, and make it a function of deck crew actions.

It reduces By one box the number needed of single ssd boxes, but functionally makes the SSD design simpler in that one less single ssd box makes more room available for better organization of other systems boxes in groups of multiple boxes.

That means the probes would be stored like drones and not destroyed with the launcher. Powering up a probe for service would then become similar to preparing a shuttle for a special mission (such as science mission or wild weasel.)

Perhaps the probe launcher could be adapted into a kind of wheeled equipment that is stored in the Shuttle bay?

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 09:05 am: Edit

Perhaps some of the "tractor tricks" and such were gained from Omega? There are all kinds of special stuff in the "foreign" empires the galactics met during Unity.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 09:06 am: Edit

Tholians should get many of their disruptors/ photons replaced by Webcasters.

So fighting them is a nightmare of maneuver and not one where they close OL.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 10:01 am: Edit

Michael raises another issue that I missed before.

One aspect of retaining the existing phaser 1, 2 , 3 and 4 tables is that it preserves the relationship To the existing heavy weapons of each of the Empires in the game.(In game balance terms).

To drop an enemy ships shields still requires hitting a target with heavy weapons such as photons, disrupters etc.

This would require that maneuver still be important to the game for ships of equal relative strength. Less important in dealing with earlier eras.

If the various heavy weapons get a modest improvement, it would only reinforce the value of maneuver to take advantage of said heavy weapons importance in inflicting damage.

For example...if the photon were to get a third turn arming cycle and a triple overload option (energy cost of 2+2+8=12 points of warp energy, warhead strength f 24 damage points) the result would be a more devastating attack but not totally out of line with other empires heavy weapons.

Not sure how to balance the Disrupters using empires other than increasing the energy cost... have to think about that...

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 10:33 am: Edit

To make an X2 disruptor simply add 'cannon' mode. IE, they can take 2 turns to arm and fire as a Disruptor Cannon or use Bolt mode aka classic disruptor. I could see the Lyrans simply switching to Cannons for their ships, Kzinti stick with Bolts, and the Klingons go with the full monty.

As for 'X2' Tholian.....in many ways I think the Tholians should be outside the whole 'X' thing period. They are extragalactic, have tech that is unreproducible by the Alpha powers, and are very reclusive. Out of all the powers in Alpha they should mysteriously be exempt from the whole 200/50% shift from X0/1 to X2. IE, they don't take double damage from X2, and they do standard damage to X2, not half. Why? Mysterious Tholian Technology, that's why.

*waves hands, makes spooky noises*

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 10:54 am: Edit

I would like X2 to have some ability to fight web, particularly webbed defenses so that the three-ring wedding cake attack is not an exercise in futility. Then again I want this for earlier eras too so I might be biased.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 11:01 am: Edit

Only a itsy tiny bit? Lol! Grin.

(Sorry Jon. Just pulling your chain a little bit!)

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 11:04 am: Edit

No problem, I have just played enough campaigns with people clamoring to play as the Tholians and no one else wanting them allowed (or they want to play them too) because on defense they are all but unbeatable.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 11:20 am: Edit

Douglas Lampert,

But the percentage of phaser-1s within "phaser-2" empires has been going up over time. Take the Klingons as the canonical example. Prior to the "K" refit becoming available, phaser-1s were used only in their few flagships and "leaders", and even those were usually a mix of phaser-1s and phaser-2s. In Y178 (if I recall correctly) the K refit becomes available and the Klingons can start upgrading some of the phasers on their "line" warships, as well we increasing the number of phaser-1s on their flagships and leaders.

A couple of years later, X-tech becomes available and ALL their X-ships have phaser-1s. Not only that, they can apply "XP" (partial X) refits to their standard warships. One allowable XP refit is to upgrade phaser-2s to phaser-1s (for 1 point each) or to phaser-1Xs (double capacitors and rapid pulse - for 2 points each). When XP refits first become available, the empires are limited as regards the percentage of their fleets they can give the XP upgrade to. But long before the X2 era, the percentage has risen to 100% of eligible ships. By the Y190s the Klingons have very nearly caught up with the Feds or Gorns or Tholians in their ability to deploy phaser-1s. (The only reason I say "very nearly" is that PFs are not eligible for XP-refits and Gorn or Tholian PFS have phaser-1s while Klingon PFs have phaser-2s. But PFs are on the way out by that time, anyway.)

And then, in the Y200s, the Klingons suddenly revert to putting phaser-2s on their MOST MODERN AND VALUABLE ships? I just don't see it (unless for some reason the Feds figure out how to produce X2 phaser-1s and the Klingons can't figure it out... but can figure out how to produce X2 phaser-2s. I'm afraid that still doesn't make sense to me.)

A few days ago I did propose a "phaser-X" as an X2 alternative to the phaser-1. But the phaser-X had both operational advantages and disadvantages compared to the phaser-1. It was more powerful at long range but couldn't rapid pulse, hence was not as effective against seeking weapons. Other than lower cost (and the cost difference is actually very small compared to the total (presumed) cost of an X2 warship) what is the advantage of having phaser-2s on your newest and most expensive ships? You say that the X2 phaser-2 is still an upgrade over the X1 phaser-1. That's not the issue. The issue is how it compares to an X2 phaser-1. (Hint: it's inferior.) Why would Klingon ships that might have to fight Federation (or Kzinti, or Tholian) ships with X2 phaser-1s settle for X2 phaser-2s (unless, as previously supposed, there is some reason why they can't build X2 phaser-1s)?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 11:25 am: Edit

Jon Murdock,

As someone whose favorite empire is the Tholians, and who likes to play SFB campaigns, I have found that the Tholians pretty much have to be "handicapped" by either making their bases a lot more expensive or by giving them a significantly smaller economy. And it's hard to get the balance right.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Trevor, think of X2 phasers as new beasts.

An X2 medium phaser (aka p-2) may be MORE expensive than a X1 heavy phaser (aka p-1X).

And a X2 heavy phaser (aka p-1) may cost as much as a X2 heavy weapon (photon, whatever). It may cost MORE.

Remember the X0 p-1 was just a software upgrade for the Feds.....the other Western empires (Lyran being the big exception) had to build their p-1's bigger and bulkier to get the same performance......at least at first, anyway.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Per Jon Murdock's comments from earlier today;

Proposal for an X2 Capability to Attack Webs

A few years ago someone proposed a "web breaker" warhead for drones. The idea was that the Klingons had salvaged some limited Seltorian technology after destroying the remnants of their fleet. They were never able to produce true "direct fire" web breakers but were able to salvage some of the technology to produce a warhead that would reduce the strength of web if the drone was fired into it. After some discussion, ADB rejected the idea because it wes thought that the Klingons could simply (for some limited period of time) shift ALL drone production to web breaker drones (presumably after having stockpiled a lot of "regular" drones) and then load them onto DB ships and overwhelm the Tholian bases one by one. The Holdfast would no longer be a viable concept.

But suppose the warhead were too big to fit in a drone. Suppose it required a dedicated variant of the suicide shuttle. You couldn't hit the web with enough of them simultaneously to completely take it down (unlike the case with drones) but you could greatly reduce the web strength. Attacking ships would assault the weakened web before the Tholiand could pump it back up, and would be trapped for much shorter periods of time. Some would die but some would get through to the next web. The Klingons would still lose ships taking down a Tholian base - but at least they would have a fighting chance of taking the base down. The Holdfast is threatened but the more limited numbers of anti-web weapons a base could be attacked with means they still have a decent fighing chance.

Though I have described this weapon above as a variant of the suicide shuttle, that's not quite right. It is a custom built vehicle that is the size of a shuttle craft but has no use other than as an anit-web bomb. (Conveniently, the Klingons finally develop the capability right around the time X2 is developed.) A few ancient C8Vs and interdiction and patrol carriers (I don't recall the initials for the latter) are brought out of mothballs to serve as platforms to launch these web bombs, the web bombs themselves replacing the 18 or 24 fighters the ships would once hace carried.

The Klingons give the technology to the Lyrans and Romulans, since it poses no danger to the Klingons themselves. A Federation spy manages to steal it. The Feds don't bring any of their old CVAs or interdiction carriers out of mothballs, since the Tholians aren't their enemy. But they have emergency war plans to do so... just in case.

The Tholians consider the ramifications of this new and more severe threat and adjust their own warplans accordingly...