Archive through March 02, 2018
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: Rules Questions:
SFB Rules Q&A:
Archive through March 02, 2018
Steve Zamboni:
Did your opponent not know the G-rack could carry normal drones? That is, I am afraid, the only way I can imagine his thought process going that way (other than perhaps one drink too many, or a serious lack of sleep).
I have known way, way too many Federation captains who loaded their type-G drone racks only with anti-drones when facing off with a Klingon or a Kzinti.
Of course, one of those almost (almost) caught me with a scatter-pack (bought the drones with Commander's Options), but it was back in the day when T-bombs were 1 point each, and I had just enough space to roll it out the hatch and get out of the way.
He knew, he was just assuming that I was using the same drone mix I used the week before. Mind game casualty.
(To simplify bookkeeping, that group had a home-brew campaign drone resupply rule that made changing drone loads extremely expensive. Every so often I would cough up the bpv to slip a few non-standard items into the mix and catch someone sleeping.)
Jon Murdock:
No worries. Can't imagine someone getting a rule wrong in this game, right? 
SPP:
I flew a BCG against a C7 the other day, and went 100% ADDs in the 2x G racks, and 2x I, 2x IV in each B rack. But the reason for that is very simple: Some crazy Fed ship designer thought it would be funny to give a ship 4 racks but not double drone control.
This way I could load up SPs with 2x I, 2x IV, and still have two channels for drones launched from the B racks, and 2 ADDs cooking off against his double drone control.
Has the old "shell game shatter pack" been forgotten or outlawed by rules changes? I'm surprised nobody is mentioning it here.
Scatter pack armed with 2xVI, 3xI, and 1xIV? That was practically the standard SP load back when I was playing a lot.
Like SPP was saying, you've always got to keep them worrying that there are some Type-IV's in the mix.
I usually load up my G-racks with a few regular drones but I also rarely just load them with ADDs and forget about it. Usually I do this when I am using multiple ships and my drone capacity is very low. I fought Klingons once with a Fed five ship squadron with two drone racks. I knew I was unlikely to be able to build a wave big enough to threaten them and their ADDs would chew them up anyways so I went full defensive on drones.
One of my proudest SFB moments was releasing a pair of scatterpacks with six drones each on a Romulan. They cloaked. The 12 dogfight drones broke through the weakened shield. Good times.
OK I hate being Mr. Question in here, but I've hit another one I just can't seem to resolve to my own satisfaction. I'll try to mention each rule that seems to confuse or possibly contradict, and what I *think* it all means. Then hopefully SPP or someone that knows can tell me what I got wrong
#) Question? formatted lines are specific questions I have.
Let's say we're building a force for a patrol scenario under the usual S8.0 rules. We start with a Fed CA, no refits. So we're talking about a Drone race ship with no Drone racks. Now, we pay 8 VP via Commander's options to add an MRS. We now have 20 spaces of Drone Storage, and a 2-space Ready Rack in the shuttle bay.
Availability calculation (FD10.6):
Since I have 2 warhead spaces I get:
0 Limited availability spaces (2*0.1=0.2 rounded down)
1 Restricted availability space (2*0.25=0.5 rounded up)
1 General since that's what left.
Cost calculation (FD2.45): In this case the player is using Medium speed drones, and decides that he wants a Type-I-M (Cost 0.5), and a Type-I-HXM (Cost 1.5) for his two spaces of drones. Assuming a year where Medium speed drones are General Availability, we've increased the BPV of the ship by 1, and also given our opponent another 1 VP (9 total).
Storage (FD2.45): Drones in storage are proportional to those in the racks, although some can be changed around as long as they are not more expensive (and I assume not rarer as well, although this is not mentioned?). So I could simply have 10 Type-I-M and 10 Type-I-HXM in storage.
Any two of the 10 Type-I-M could be swapped for a Type-IV-M (up to 5 times).
1) Could this swap be for a Type-IV-XM?
It remains general availability and is not more expensive, so I think so.
Any of the 10 Type-I-HXM could be swapped for other Restricted options, e.g. a couple could be ECM instead of explosive.
Storage (J4.72): This says that Ready racks count against the Drone storage of the ship.
2) Does the ship in this example have 2 spaces of Drones on the Rack (or on the MRS if WS-III) and 18 in storage, or 2 spaces on the rack/MRS and 20 in storage?
Storage (J8.531): This just confuses everything. I think everything above (except question 2 being unclear to me) covers the bases, but then what is this rule even talking about?
3) This lists out a default load of "types of drones" but shouldn't they all just be proportional to the rack per FD2.45?
4) A quote from J8.531 "The twenty spaces are composed of ten spaces of primary use and ten identical spaces of reload drones for purposes of cost calculations for special or improved drones." Primary use is a drone term that doesn't seem to be used anywhere else. What is this sentence trying to convey?
5) Unrelated to the ship above, last question about G-racks and FD10.6. If a ship has both G-racks and B-racks, say 1 of each, is that 10 spaces for percent calculations in FD10.6, even if the G-rack is fully loaded with ADDs?
I'll let people who's SFB knowledge is more current than mine answer your questions, some of my answers would probably 20 years out of date, haha.
But don't be shy about asking questions. There is nothing this group of people likes to see more than new people learning SFB. They are all very happy to answer as many questions as you have, and most people in these forums have been playing the game for more than 20 years so they tend to give very good answers.
And Petrick will correct them for you if they don't;-)
I will take a stab at the questions but make no promises in regards to accuracy:
1) At first look I would say no to this. The MRS cannot mount a Type IV drone on its drone rails so having a stockpile of them seems unlikely. The only use for a double spaced drone would be to use the MRS as a scatterpack and I do not think that allows it.
2) You start with two spaces of drones on the MRS ready rack (or loaded on the shuttle depending on weapon status) and eighteen in storage. If at high weapon status and it is preloaded as a scatter-pack you could have even more drones loaded.
3) See 4.
4) I believe you have ten drone spaces with which to buy restricted or limited drones (which makes the percentages easy). The reloads match the primary drones selected. If you bought special drones one from the most restricted class must be on the ready rack or loaded on the MRS.
5) Pretty sure you do not count spaces of ADDs as spaces for percentages. I also believe you ignore dogfight drones (Type VI) on G-racks, ADD racks, and E-racks from the percentages though you can still buy speed upgrades for the dogfight drones.
That is what I would say if we were getting ready for a scenario and were eager to get started so terms and conditions apply to this understanding.
Jamey Johnston:
Rule (J8.531) is telling you that you purchase the drones for the MRS shuttle as if they were one "rack" holding 10 spaces with an identical set of reloads.
The "rack" holds 1xtype-IV, 5xtype-I and 6xtype-VI. There is an identical reload.
If you upgrade the drones to all fast, that would cost you 9 BPV.
If you want to, you can replace two (or four) of the type-I drones with type-IVs, or you could replace four of the type-VIs with a type-IV (or two type-Is) or whatever you wish (you could make them all type-IVs, or type-Is, or type-VIs or whatever combination you wish). That is the "experiment with other combinations" line.
The POINT to the "rack" holding 10 spaces of drones is that a Federation MRS deployed on an unrefitted Federation cruiser would be utterly unable to access even one (1) 10% available drone (10% of 2 is .2, which rounds down to zero). Having 10 drones in the initial loading of the "rack" allows the ship to have up to two "10%" drones (one in the "rack" and one in "reloads").
The MRS is, in and of itself, a unique "fighter squadron," and its drone percentages of availability are unique to itself. You figure its drone upgrades completely separately from any drone racks on the ship (just as you would figure the drone loadouts for a fighter squadron completely separately from any drone racks on the carrier). Yes, once you have calculated the drone loadouts and start the game you can move any given drone on the ship to any given system able to use it, e.g., a scatter pack launched by a carrier might have drones from the reloads for the drone racks, and from the fighter drone stockpile and from the MRS shuttle's reloads.
In simple, rule (J8.531) covers two things.
1.) It is unfair to let the "drone empires" get those drones on the cheap when for 8 BPV all a Hydran, Lyran, or Tholian gets is an MRS, a Romulan, Gorn, or Inter-Stellar Concordium gets plasma-D torpedoes with no (prior to the Sabot refit) upgrades. Paying drone speed upgrades for just two drones and getting 18 more spaces was simply unfair. So the drone empires have to pay more (speed upgrades for half the drones).
And as I played mostly Klingons, I was very much in favor of this change because even I thought the free drone upgrades were unfair to the non-drone empires.
I had considered that as well, but the wording just confuses things so much. Just suggesting to treat it as a rack with 10 spaces and one reload makes it very clear. I still have questions, but I think I'm getting there.
1) If you buy an MRS on a carrier, for the purposes of drone storage calculations, is the MRS treated sort of like a fighter with 10 spaces of rails, and increasing drone storage by 20?
Each squadron calculates availability separately?!?! I couldn't find anything suggesting this, that simple change makes this a lot simpler though. FD10.641 strongly implies you just add up all your drone rack spaces, plus ready rack spaces (ignoring Type-VI on ready racks) and run the percentages once. This changes everything! Makes it quite a bit easier. That seems like something that should have made it into the rulebook
2) If you buy a MRS shuttle for a Kzinti non-carrier, does the MRS get 1 or 2 Limited? My gut says give it 2 since it's Kzinti, but it's not a carrier and the MRS isn't technically a Kzinti ship, I could also see it only getting 1.
3) Does MRS storage qualify under FD2.45 for different drones in storage as long as they are cheaper? i.e. can the 10 free drones be different than the 10 paid for or must they be an exact copy?
Again, just a stab:
1) Fighter squadron with 10 spaces of rails with 10 more drones in reloads.
The squadron thing is in the rulebook but I do not remember where.
2) The MRS can buy two limited drones and have two more that are the same or cheaper in the "reloads".
3) Yes. You can change them as long as the reload is cheaper.
Sometimes as a pre-Y175 refit drone user I would buy an MRS just for the extra drones. Cheaper than just buying more and it helps a lot when you by default only have one set of reloads.
Oh yeah and
4) Since the MRS specifically is sort of a weird fighter that has 2 spaces on the ready rack but is treated for cost purposes like it has a 10 space ready rack, if you start with 2 spaces on the ready rack itself or the MRS, can they be any of the 10 spaces you paid for?
I only ask because if so it seems "really good" that a Kzinti or Carrier-based MRS could start the game with both of its spaces carrying limited drones.
Jamey Johnston:
Rule (J4.46) defines fighter squadrons.
Rule (FD10.64) defines buying special drones as by squadrons, not by individual fighters or all fighters on a given carrier, you buy the special drones for the SQUADRON. It is done that way for the same reason the MRS drones are done. In a lot of cases a single fighter does not carry enough drone spaces to ever have a special drone. A Kzinti AAS has only two type-I drones and could not (by itself, even though a "Kzinti unit") qualify to ever have an externally armored drone (10% of "2" is .2 rounding down to zero). A squadron of 11 AAS and 1xAASE (just the way I think I always use EW fighters) would have 22 spaces of drones, and 10% of 22 is 2.2, allowing the squadron to have two such drones in its initial loading and some number in reload storage (depending on the carrier's stockpile). Two such squadrons (heavy carrier or starbase or other carrier with two squadrons) could have four such drones (two in each squadron) plus the reloads. And of course all stockpiles on a given ship can be used by any drone system (reloads for the drone racks can be used to re-arm the fighters through their ready racks, reloads for the fighters can be used to re-arm the drone racks, once the scenario begins not before the scenario begins).
So in simple:
The Multi-role is treated as a separate unit, even though under (J10.46) it can be included as part of a squadron. The rules for its drones are specific to it, but it has two spaces on its ready rack (or already loaded depending on weapon status) and the other 18 spaces becomes part of the fighter reload stockpile (FD2.443), or becomes the whole fighter reload stockpile if there are no fighters (non-carrier) again under (FD2.443).
A Kzinti MRS is a Kzinti unit and uses the Kzinti percentages. Note that under (FD10.6) ALL Kzinti units use the "carrier" percentages. Whether the Kzinti unit is a carrier or not, 50% of the drones can be restricted availability, and 20% limited.
As to the can the reload drones of the MRS (the bottom 10) be different as long as the same cost of cheaper, yes.
Xenocide:
Yeah we're on the same page there. All your answers are in line with my current assumptions after reading SPP's response!
Kavik:
Yeah. My problem is that I *haven't* played the game in 20 years. I played for 6-7 years back in the early-mid '90s. Didn't do a lot of carrier operations though.
Jamey Johnston:
Yes, any of the 10 initial drone spaces can be on the ready rack (low weapon status) or on the MRS (higher weapon status). That is one of the wonders of the Multi-Role shuttle. You can decide if the initial loading is four type-VI drones, two type-VI drones and a type-I drone, two type-I drones, or one type-IV drone. It is just that the drones on the MRS must come from the 10 spaces you actually paid for (and in earlier years, i.e., Y150-Y165, might be type-II or type-V).
SPP:
Thank you so much for the quick answers, really appreciate it.
I totally get that if you tried to do drone availability by individual fighter you'd get totally skewed numbers (exception: F-14CMs and F-14DMs because they carry 10 spaces exactly).
But FD10.641 is what kept tripping me up, specifically this wording:
"All percentages are based on “warhead spaces” of drones in drone racks, and fighter ready racks or launch rails (FD2.45). Round fractions of 0.49- down and 0.50+ up."
Specifically the placement of and, or. I've always (like since 20+ years ago) taken that sentence as a whole. Your ship's warhead spaces being (drones in drone racks) *and* (fighter ready racks *or* rails).
FD10.644 does mention that Type-VI drones on Type-VI rails are treated separately, which has always been clear. But nothing ever just comes out in plain English (that I could find) to suggest that you calculate availability of a squadron independent of the carrier or other squadrons on that carrier.
And (I fully admit I'm splitting hairs here, but in a system such as this it seems relevant) for the Kzinti MRS, the verbiage in FD10.6 gives Carriers and Kzinti *ships* increased percentages. Since you calculate MRS and Fighter squadrons separately, a strict reading of the rule does not give increased percentages to that Kzinti MRS, or even the fighter squadrons on carriers.
Just wanted to explain why I was confused
Jamey Johnson:
Fighter ready racks is mentioned because when you are purchasing the drones for the fighters you are going to do it by squadrons, and the squadron might be at Weapon Status Zero, so even though you purchased it by the fighter drone rails, all the drones are starting on the ready racks, and your deck crews will have to load.
But it is by squadrons for fighters, and it has to be because of the variation between fighters. A Federation F-8, or Klingon Z-2, or Kzini AAS all have only two drone spaces and would pretty much be locked out of anything but standard explosive drones (albeit perhaps with extended range). The rule allows almost any squadron of drone armed fighters (except those armed only with type-VI drones, e.g., Federation F-16, Klingon DAS, Kzinti SAS) to have at least some special drones (size of the squadron can further limit these drones, e.g., most CVEs have only six fighters.
The reason it says "ships" is because the category ships includes base and PF (A3.23). Fighters are listed as units under (A3.23) (coming under shuttles) but an ancillary (as are bombers, heavy fighters, and multi-role shuttles). That is to say they are not "self supporting" but are provided support by another unit (a base, or a carrier). So their availability is from the supporting unit. So the carrier (ship or base) from which they operate provides the empire percentages. A Kzinti fighter squadron operates from a Kzinti carrier and uses the Kzinti drone percentages, but determines its drone availability based on the organization of the Squadron. The Squadron may have a dozen fighters (the maximum), or as few as two fighters (see the HDW).
Yep that all makes sense. Although I never calculated it by fighter, quite the opposite. I interpreted it as you calculate it once for the ship. i.e. I had been adding up (drone rack spaces) plus (ready rack spaces that are not for Type-VI rails) and calculating the percentages from that single total for a ship, which is how the first sentence of FD10.641 would seem to suggest due to the use of the word "and."
When purchasing a Type-III-MWF when Fast speed drones are general availability:
The total cost for that drone is 6 points (5 points to swap it in for a Type-I-S).
For victory conditions, scoring, and commander's options:
Does the BPV of the ship go up by 2.5, and 2.5 VP are given to the opponent and count against commander's options? Or is it BPV goes up by 1, and 4 points counted as commander's options?
the 2.5 and 2.5 split assumes that all speed upgrades including the sub-munitions do not count against commander's options and instead increase BPV, the 1 and 4 split would be if the entire sub-munition cost including speed is part of the cost of the swap.
Anyone?
This battle is being set up for tomorrow, so my best guess is that drone speeds bought for anything itself bought as a commander's option also count as commander's options (the answer to the question above being that the GCBPV of the ship in the example goes up by 1, and it costs 4 VP of commander's options). Hopefully that is right.
And just to make sure I'm understanding something related to scenario scoring:
If you buy an MRS as a commander's option (granting your opponent 8 VP at the start), does he *also* score 0.5/5/10 VP for crippling/destroying/capturing it during the scenario?
That last bit should be 0.5/2.5/5/10 for damaging/crippling/destroying/capturing.
If I read the rules correctly:
According to S2.20 the enemy gets the VPs for you buying the MRS as commanders option under section B.
Under section C the enemy gets extra points after the battle based on the EPV of your ship according to S2.21 (25%/50%/100%/200% of our ships EPV).
I guess this means indeed in addition the VPs under section B.
But your MRS would be covered slightly different as a shuttle not included in your ships BPV under rule S2.23 which has slightly different percentages. For damaging/crippling/destroying/capturing your enemy would gain 25%/50%/100%/100% of the MRS EPV. (Note the same values for destroying and capturing the shuttle%)
So, the MRS would be worth 0.5/2.5/5/5 points after the battle.
Mit freundlichen Gruessen,
Good catch. Yeah the part that wasn't immediately clear was if paying the BPV as VP as commander's options meant that it was already "scored." But thinking about it further, it makes much more sense that it would still be scored in combat as well (since if you buy it as part of the BPV it's still impacting base VP due to the force difference, plus potential VP for damage).
But I had missed the altered percentages.
Damage would be 1.25 VP though (25% of 5), not .5
Not really a question, but a weird observation:
If using normal S2.20 victory conditions, unless you need/want the commander's option points for something else, it's better to Commander's option your MRS.
Part of BPV: GCBPV of ship goes up by 8. This results in either you having 8 fewer VP or your opponent having 8 more (or a split totaling 8) from step A. The ship is also worth 8 more points for scoring purposes. Even if the shuttle is destroyed independently (scoring 5 VP for your enemy) your ship is still worth 3 more.
As commander's option: Opponent starts with 8 extra BPV, plus he can score 5 max from the MRS itself.
Granted, this is tiny, but amusing that if you buy it as part of your ship's BPV you are putting an extra 3 VP at stake, assuming my math checks out. Just a tax on having more commander's options for other things, I guess.