And one, final question before I start this shindig:

Do the speed upgrades for fighter storage drones A) increase the BPV of the ship holding them, B) the fighters themselves, or C) neither (counting as part of your force BPV but not "scorable" during the scenario)?

Actual example:
Fed player has a BCG in his force with an MRS purchased as a commander's option. He's got 8 fast drones in the ship's drone racks, and also 8 points worth of fast drones in the 10 "paid for" spaces for the MRS. He's also upgraded some drones, but that's just VP for the opponent so that part is easy.

For scoring purposes,
Is the BCG GEBPV 188, or 196?
Is the MRS GEBPV 5 or 13?

My current "best guess" is that it's 188 for the BCG and 5 for the MRS, since all the drones are being purchased for an MRS bought as a commander's option. However, due to the additional selection of drones available on the ship, it would not surprise me if the ship goes to 196.

I guess it's even possible to suggest that the MRS goes to 7 (or 6 if loaded with a single Type-IV-F), with the remaining 6 or 7 added to the BCG or just counted against force total.

Really appreciate the help here!

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, March 05, 2018 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Where are the rules governing the treatment of Fabrication and Works boxes listed?

I noted on one of the SSDs in SFB Module R11 that Fabrication boxes are destroyed on "lab" hits, whereas Works boxes are destroyed on "cargo" hits. But, beyond that, I was wondering how the presence and function of these boxes was handled - and whether or not it was something which would only happen between scenarios, or if these boxes could do anything during the course of a given scenario.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, March 05, 2018 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Both do nothing during a scenario. Works cannot use the cargo storage and transfer rules and that is the only difference from cargo. Fabrication is hit on labs but cannot act as a lab.

Best to think of it as hull with different hit locations on the SSD unless used in a campaign or special scenario rules influence the situation (i.e. victory points for preserving certain boxes).

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Monday, March 05, 2018 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

There is information in The Jindarian Caravans Module F1 (R16.1C2) Facilities:

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, March 05, 2018 - 07:17 pm: Edit

Thank you both kindly.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Wednesday, March 07, 2018 - 02:33 pm: Edit

Would someone be so kind as to check the following and verify that I've understood the various interactions and calculations?

This is for a Patrol Scenario
Ship: Federation BCG in Y180
180 points
+0 to swap shuttles for A-Admin
+3 to put Warp Booster Packs on 3x A-Admin (fourth will be swapped for A-MRS later)

Total Effective Adjusted Combat BPV: 183
This means player is limited to 37 points max for Commander's Options

Going against a Klingon, the player chooses to fully load the G-racks with ADDs. He also swaps 2x Type-I for 1x Type-IV twice in each B-rack, meaning only 8 drones need speed upgrades
+8 Drone speed fast

Total Gross Adjusted Combat (and Economic, in this case) BPV: 191

Commander's Options:
+16 4x T-Bombs
+2 Add 2 Commando Boarding Parties
+3.5 Drone upgrades (One Type-IV-MW for +2.5, One Type-I-XH for +1)
+8 Swap A-Admin for A-MRS
+1 Add WBP to A-MRS
+2.5 MRS Drone upgrades (One Type-III-MW for +2.5)
Total 33
+12 for Drone speed upgrades (These points do not count against the limit: 10 spaces for the A-MRS for +8 w/ two Type-IV swaps, sub-munitions for MW drones for +4)

Force Total: 191
Commander's Option VPs to Opponent: 45

GAEBPV of ship: 191 (for % calculations of damage)
GAEBPV of A-Admins: 2 (if shuttle destroyed independent of ship, opponent scores 2 VP but ship reduced by 2 for VP calculations)
GAEBPV of A-MRS: 7 (I think, 11 base +1 WBP +2 for drone speeds on rails, x0.5)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, March 09, 2018 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Jamey Johnston asked on Wednesday, 7 Mar 18: Would someone be so kind as to check the following and verify that I've understood the various interactions and calculations?

This is for a Patrol Scenario
Ship: Federation BCG in Y180
180 points
+0 to swap shuttles for A-Admin
+3 to put Warp Booster Packs on 3x A-Admin (fourth will be swapped for A-MRS later)

Under (S2.14) you have to perform the calculations in the correct order.

The ship's BPV is 180. Under (S3.211) you use this BPV which might be adjusted by the installation of a refit (not applicable) or its fighters (also not applicable). It does not include the cost [again under (S3.211)] of any mandatory drone speed upgrades or crew quality.

So for purposes of purchasing commander's options, you have (20% of 180) 36 BPV available.

Under (J5.11) since it is not a formally published historical scenario (which would specify if the warp booster packs were present, or a "general scenario" which prescribes that it could only happen in Y180 or later (such as requiring the presence of an X-ship) which might also in its specific case define that warp booster packs are available, if you wanted to use warp booster packs you must pay for them. You must [again under (J5.11) purchase them for all shuttles on your ship (if there was more than one ship, one ship might have warp packs and another might not), you cannot purchase them. Further, under Annex #6A installing warp booster packs "does not increase the BPV of the ship/unit, but do count against the overall force total."

So while the ship has a BPV of 180 (and 36 points available for commander's options) your starting force total is 186 BPV [because there are six (6) shuttles on a Federation BC]. Now the cost of warp booster packs can be reduced (swap two admins for an HTS and you will need only one warp booster pack for the HTS rather than two for two admin shuttles). But even if you are planning to get that MRS, its will still have to have a warp booster pack if you got warp booster packs for the admin shuttles.

As the year is Y180, fast drones can be considered mandatory, and with your drone set up you will be adding eight BPV to the cost of the ship, but it will be part of the overall battle force once again, but again will not add to your available points for Commander's Options (S2.14).

So your "force" is 180 (ship's BPV) plus 6 (warp booster packs) plus 8 (mandatory drone speed, you can choose to take slower drones) for 194 BPV. COMMENT: I think you got 191 by thinking the BC had only four shuttles. END COMMENT: You will increase this another 13 points because of the mandatory speed upgrades of they type-VI drones in the multi-warhead modules (1xtype-IV, one 1xtype-III, eight total type-VI), and of course nine points for (assuming you took the standard mix and did not do any additional trades of two-type-I for one type-IV in the MRS loadout) the MRS drones. For a final force value of 207.

You have 36 Commander's Option Points to spend, which by (S2.14) is not included in your "gross adjusted BPV."

The four T-bombs are going to cost 16 as noted.
The two commando squads will cost 2 as noted.
The points spent for the drones in your racks are correct (3.5 total as noted).
The cost to swap an admin for and MRS is correct at 8 as noted.
The Warp Booster pack is not a Commander's Option Item, but is part of the force total as was noted above and thus not counted.
The cost for the type-IIIMW is correct (2.5) for commander's options.

So you have spent 32 of your allowed 36 Commander's Option Points.

Your gross adjusted combat BPV which [under (S2.14) does not include the Commander's Option purchases, but does include drone speed upgrades) is 207.

The MRS shuttle's economic BPV is 5 [half of 10 under (S2.12), i.e., you do not get to deduct the cost of the admin you traded in for it when it is lost] plus .5 under (J5.32) (the pack increased the cost of the MRS to 11, but this is still halved if the MRS is destroyed), but under (J1.85) this is rounded up to six.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Friday, March 09, 2018 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Thank you so much. Yes, I was working off of my copy of Module R2 (from "back in the day" in which the various BC(x)s have 4 shuttles. Now that I have the updated R2 PDF (as you may have noticed from my other post in the thread on buying and rating e-products) I see that it does now have 6 shuttles! My other issue was that I had (incorrectly) assumed that Drone speeds needed due to Commander's Options purchases would also be Commander's Options. Thank you for the check!!! I really appreciate it, it was the last bit of force building I wasn't sure about. And the shuttle thing, well here's hoping that the rest of the R modules come out in PDF soon so I don't have to use my old ones lol

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 09, 2018 - 10:39 pm: Edit

Are drone speeds as fast actually mandatory?

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Friday, March 09, 2018 - 11:04 pm: Edit

No, we had that discussion earlier in the thread. However, it's all or nothing. If you upgrade the ship's drones, you have to speed upgrade all the commander's optioned ones (MRS, etc.) as well because the drones have to be the same speed unless a scenario specifies otherwise, or you're in a year where certain speeds are Restricted/Limited.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Saturday, March 10, 2018 - 01:23 am: Edit

My understanding is you can use slower speed drones if you want to (for tactical reasons) (FD2.454). Also see notes below (FD2.32).

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Saturday, March 10, 2018 - 02:15 am: Edit

Two things:
1) Ignore my comment about old R2, it's just bad memory on my part (which I was working from at the time).

2) Wayne: Yes, that came up earlier in the discussion. You are not required to buy speed upgrades. However, FD2.454 goes on to state that normally all the drones on a ship are the same speed, except in periods (Y165-66 and Y178-79) where the next higher speed is Restricted or Limited.

So in my case my MW drone sub-munitions and MRS drones were required to be fast since the drones in the racks were fast. I could have elected to make *all* of them slow or medium speed, though

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, March 10, 2018 - 03:58 am: Edit

My understanding is that nevertheless a player is NOT forced to buy all drones at the current speed.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Saturday, March 10, 2018 - 04:06 am: Edit

That is my understanding also, see notes in (FD2.32), you can take slower speeds if you want even in later years when fast is general availability.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, March 10, 2018 - 01:34 pm: Edit

The cost of drone speeds is always going to be a calculation.

If you have a type-B drone rack, and fast speed drones are in use, the cost could be 6, 5, 4, or 3 (6xtype-IF, or 4xtype-IF and 1xtype-IVF, or 2xtype-IF and 2xtype-IVF, or 3xtype-IVF). So depending on the drones selected there is going to be variation. Add to this the presence of multi-warhead drones where the cost of the submunitions speed upgrades also need to be added. The point is that drone speeds, under (S2.14) are part of the gross adjusted BPV.

By Matt Koukol (Delphidex) on Saturday, March 10, 2018 - 04:56 pm: Edit

I am pretty new to SFB, but loving it. I have a question on G13.37. What modifies this roll so that you can get a 7+? I see in G13.36, that during the Fade period you add the penalty hexes and then subtract 5, so that can't go over 6 (since the largest hex penalty in fade is 5). What really confuses me is that G13.35 says "...there is a substantial probability that [a seeking weapon] will not be able to find the target." Without a positive modifier, there is no chance it won't find it (do no damage), and a 33% chance it will do full damage. What am I not getting? Thanks!

By Nick Blank (Nickgb) on Saturday, March 10, 2018 - 08:22 pm: Edit

Positive modifiers on that chart can happen when using G13.361 combined with optional rule G13.62, so usually don't come up.

I think the flavor text about "not finding the target" means any case that is not 100% damage, i.e. the weapon exploded some distance away doing some damage, but not full damage.

By Matt Koukol (Delphidex) on Sunday, March 11, 2018 - 01:09 am: Edit

Thanks. I was thinking I was missing something basic, but couldn't find it. The flavor text is what did me in!

By Boyd Steere (Pyramider) on Sunday, March 18, 2018 - 08:57 am: Edit

Hello, all. I have a question regarding carrier escorts and hangar pods.

Under which of the following conditions is a single-size hangar pod such as the Klingon P-H5 or the Kzin P-V2 required to have an escort (under S8.0 rules)?

A) The hangar pod starts the scenario as an integral part of a Mobile Base (MB).

B) The hangar pod starts the scenario externally docked to a Base Station (BS) or Battle Station (BATS).

C) The hangar pod starts the scenario internally docked to a starbase (SB).

D) The hangar pod starts the scenario attached to a tug but it holds no fighters (e.g. it holds only shuttles).

Thank you!

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Sunday, March 18, 2018 - 09:53 am: Edit

I would think None in all of the above. Bases are not carriers and the pod is carrying shuttles not fighters. I am guessing as replacements for some ships,base are whatever.

By Matt Koukol (Delphidex) on Monday, March 19, 2018 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Hello,
I am trying to get my head around fighters. I have the Advanced Missions book (1991) which includes the Federation Space Control Ship, with several fighters. However if I look in Annex 4 to see descriptions of the fighters, none of the fighters on the Control Ship are listed - only the base F-18. Is there an errata or some other free file that I can download to supply this missing info? I tried looking through Erratas on the site, but none seem to have the annex update. At this point, I really don't want to shell out a bunch of money for the Master Annex List, as I am not sure if we will be using fighters any time soon. Also, it is kind of annoying to have to pay more for something that it seems should have been included in the Advanced Missions Annex. Thanks for any help or direction here.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 19, 2018 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Matt Koukoi:

I am afraid I am not going to be able to answer clearly until we get to the bottom of a few things.

You state that the Advanced Missions Book (1991) includes the "Federation Space Control Ship with several fighters." But the Federation Space Control Ship is in Module R2, not Advanced Missions. The only Federation Carriers in Advanced Missions are the Strike Carrier and Galactic Survey Cruiser in "Light Carrier Mode" both of which operate F-18 fighters (the CVB which is basically a CVS that operates F-15 fighters is in Module R2). As the emphasis in Advanced Missions was just a "taste" of carriers, only the baseline F-18s were provided (just as the Klingons got the D6V and the Z-1 and Z-2 fighters), so Speed 13, and two type-I and two type-VI drones. Electronic warfare fighters were operationally explained in the Basic Set rulebook, but the actual rule for electronic warfare fighters (R1.F7) is in Module J.

Most Federation fighters (F-8, F-4, F-18, F-14, F-15, F-16, A-10, and A-20 heavy fighters) and variants thereof were in Module J (which also provided the Federation Heavy Carrier, which eventually evolves into the Space Control Ship). Additional Federation fighter variants were in Module j2, and additional Federation Carriers have appeared in different products (the FFV was in Module R2, the BCV and BCS were in Module R5, the NVH was in Module K, and etc.)

By Matt Koukol (Delphidex) on Monday, March 19, 2018 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Hello,
You are entirely correct - please forgive my miss reading! in the game?

I did get the color SSDs for R2, but there is no PDF of the R2 rules. So now a new question - if I were to purchase the Master Annex Book, would it include a complete Annex 4 with all fighters.
Again, sorry for the wrong info and thanks for the very fast reply!
Matt

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 19, 2018 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Matt Koukol:

Module G3 the Master Annexes was complete up to the products at the time of its publication. It does not include the consolidated Annexes for Module R12 or for Module Y3, or any Captain's Log since Captain's Log #38.

Its Annex #4 does include MOST of the fighters. A glitch in the system resulted in some of the Hydran fighters being left out, but all of the fighters of the other empires were included, and it was complete up to Module J2 and Captain's Log #38 (some articles appeared in Captain's Logs adding additional Heavy Fighters for various empires). The Federation got F-101s in Captain's Log #35, so they are included.

The Missing Hydran fighters were included in an extract (along with an extract of the missing ISC Fast Patrol Ships from Annex #3B) included in Module G3A. I apologize for the errors in Module G3 that caused Module G3A to be developed.

And there was nothing to forgive, I was just asking to make sure I would be answering the question you intended to ask. I am the last person to throw brickbats.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Monday, March 19, 2018 - 03:04 pm: Edit

I just had a look on Warehouse 23 and you're right, Matt. You can't get the rulebook for R2 or R3, although the SSD books for both are available. But you can get both the rulebook and SSD book for R4. Weird. Could this be some kind of oversight?

Edit: I just found the rulebook for R3 on Warehouse 23. It's not listed together with the SSD book. Still couldn't find the R2 rulebook.