EW effects the ship operating systems, a shift may result in failed transporter operation.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, March 23, 2018 - 09:19 am: Edit

@Charles and @Wayne,

And these two principles are precisely why Dana and I were not sure how the shield resolution would turn out. You could argue it either way.

Honestly, neither of us have a position as to the outcome. We just want to make sure we play this right. It is a Plat Hat game, after all.

-T

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Friday, March 23, 2018 - 10:24 am: Edit

Charles:

I don't follow. If D6.3146 only means that friendly units cannot ignore OEW then it is meaningless. No one puts OEW on their own units. By this logic friendly units also would ignore ECM from asteroids and other natural ECM when targeting each other. If Friendly unit is not talking about friendly on friendly interactions and a unit on your side follows the rule then you can ignore pretty much all EW ALL THE TIME.

That there are no examples does not prove anything. There are lots of rules situations that are stated without an example.

The consensus that OEW is a kind of jamming does not mean it is not EW. Jamming something is electronic warfare. Regular ECM is jamming. ECCM is trying to burn through jamming.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Friday, March 23, 2018 - 10:39 am: Edit

Ted:

The best way I can see it working is that the tractor has no effect and it is not considered because tractors are not mentioned in D3.0 and that, since the Orion is moving, you judge it as if the Orion moved.

If that does not serve I would probably go with D3.43A that since both ships are moving simultaneously in the next movement you judge it as if only the target was moving.

Both mean the Orion's #4 shield is hit but vary on which shield would be hit if the Orion fires on the Kzinti.

By Kenneth Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Friday, March 23, 2018 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Ted:
Since the Kzinti TCC is not moving, according to (G7.32) 2nd paragraph, the Orion is considered the moving ship.
The paragraph after (D3.41-D) in the last sentence states that movement due to terrain or other effects (including tractors) are ignored.

So the Kzin is facing the Orion's #4 shield and the Orion is facing the Kzin's #6 shield.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, March 23, 2018 - 12:50 pm: Edit

@Jon and @Kenneth,

Yup, I see your points. However, because it's arguable both ways and this is a Plat Hat we're pretty much going to wait for an official ruling from the powers that be.

By Matt Koukol (Delphidex) on Friday, March 23, 2018 - 01:21 pm: Edit

Thanks to both Jamie and Steve for previous responses.

I have recently purchased the Silver Anniversary Rule Book, so I believe I have all the relevant rules now.

However, I am still lost about finding the details that Steve brought up regarding the specifics of fighters as found in the rule books. For example, I also purchased a physical copy of R-10. In it there are a number of ships with fighters and I assumed their fighter information would be found in the R-10 rule book. As a specific example, looking at R14.41, I can find four configurations of escort/fighter complements for the LDR NCV based on the year. However, there is no annex 4 in this product to list the details of these particular fighters. Where do I go to find the information on the Z-V, Z-Y, Z-YB, or Z-YC (or any of the other fighters used by ships presented in this book)?

Thank you all again for your terrific response on this board. This game is a ton of fun, but there is a pretty crazy learning curve. It is great to have a resource like this.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, March 23, 2018 - 02:45 pm: Edit

The platinum hat situation asked by Ted Fay both ships are scheduled to move (because the tractored ship will move when the tractoring ship moves) under (D3.41), so it comes under the rubric of an ambiguous situation (D3.43), and is resolved under (D3.43-A), i.e., the scheduled movement leaves the situation unresolved so it is judged as if only the target ship had moved.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, March 23, 2018 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Matt Koukol:

For most of the empires in the game, the "ship descriptions" of most of their fighters are in Module J. Specifically for the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Kzintis, Gorns, Tholians, and Inter-Stellar Concordium. It also covers most of the fighters used by the Lyrans, WYN, LDR, and Seltorians simply because those empires use Klingon fighters (the WYN also use Kzinti and some other empire's fighters) and have no "empire specific" fighters of their own. The Orions use the fighters (generally) of the empire in which they are operating.

They Hydran fighters were mostly included in Module C1.

The Andromedans do not use fighters "historically" but conjectural fighters for them were in Module C3A.

Within the Alpha Octant, the Jindarians (Module F1), Vudar (Module F2), Peladine (Module E3) and Borak Star League (Module E4) were all done after Module J and include their fighter descriptions as part of their own normal basic rulebooks.

Module J2 added some additional fighters for many of the empires, and bombers (which can only operate from ground bases, except the Jindarians can operate them from some of their "ships") for most of them as well.

Further, the game continued to grow, and a lot of empires have what can be considered "informally published" ships and fighters in various issues of Captain's Log. For example, the Klingon Z-H (two-space heavy fighter) is in Module J, the Klingon Z-HB (two space FAST, i.e., Speed 15, heavy fighter is in Module J2. The Klingon Z-K (two space heavy interceptor fighter, a heavy fighter optimized for attacking other fighters) and the Z-KB fast heavy interceptor fighter were both in Captain's Log #36. An article in Captain's Log #25 introduced a number of other Klingon fighters, some of which were not "successful" and did not enter service in any numbers.

When we did the Klingon Master Star Ship Book, we integrated all of the ship descriptions and updated the fighter tables under the carriers to reflect the availability of all the fighter types. in as far as annexes, the most up to date annexes is still Module G3 which collects all of the annexes except as previously noted.

I hope that helps.

By Paul Graves (Grim) on Friday, March 23, 2018 - 08:13 pm: Edit

Steve P:

In regards to Ted's PH shield question. I was under the impression D3.43-C3 is used as indicated by the parenthetical remark at the end of that rule that states "This is used if two ships are linked by a tractor beam at Range 2."

If really D3.43-A is used what does that remark mean?

By Charles Carroll (Carroll) on Saturday, March 24, 2018 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Jon....ok...lets look at the rule of Friendly units...as an extension of the clearly defined enemy units. So by extension...all units in the game now have ECM...Ecm based on the concept of interference with fire control caused by a static like effect. That would certainly be reasonable. But...if we accept that this applies to all units in the game, friendly and enemy. Does the rule address a none unit? Such as a volume of space? All we are talking about is ECM. Not a natural phenomena like a huge area effect. How does a gigantic volume of empty space have ECM generated for it without it being a natural all encompassing thing? As in the T bomb into empty space. No unit is sitting out there so the rule shouldn't apply in at least this one aspect.

By Charles Carroll (Carroll) on Saturday, March 24, 2018 - 12:19 pm: Edit

Paul I would have to agree with you. The end statement in the 3rd Option clearly states that if a tractor beam is in use between the two ships that the player being shot at in an ambiguous situation decides at that time...in every imp...which shield would be hit. With the option of changing it each imp. Seems pretty clear cut to have a rule explain it that way. (This is used if two ships are linked by a tractor beam at Range 2; and is also used during Impulse #32.) There is also a section under the tractor rules where it discusses how when two ships move...they move simultaneously into their new hex. Without moving one then the other. So no shift in shields could occur.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, March 24, 2018 - 01:44 pm: Edit

Paul Graves:

It means that I remembered that text, and somehow, despite re-reading the rules [(D3.41) and (D3.43)] I could not find it.

Honestly. It is right there at the end, and somehow I did not see it. Maybe I got to (D3.43-C3) and just did not read to that last parenthetical sentence before I stopped reading. I do not know. But because I could not find it, I found myself forced back to (D3.43-A).

But, yes, that last parenthetical sentence is indeed the correct answer.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Saturday, March 24, 2018 - 03:30 pm: Edit

Thanks Paul,

I read section C at least 3 times, and I don't know how I didn't read to the end any of those times. I'm getting old or lazy, or just expecting to see something and not paying attention. But it's pretty clear now that I look at it.

Anyways, we finished the game with the earlier ruling but it doesn't matter. At that moment it seemed important and game changing but based on further movement in the turn I couldn't deal with the scatterpack so ultimately where those phasers hit wasn't material to the outcome.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Saturday, March 24, 2018 - 11:11 pm: Edit

Charles:

I am not 100% on OEW working while interacting with neutral objects but I am pretty close to it.

I went looking and I think I found the rule.

G24.2193

O-EW counts as ECM for all targets OF that specific enemy unit. This six points is in addition to any other EW points the target may have [lent by friendly scouts (D6.3144), generated by the unit itself (D6.3141), natural sources (D6.3143), or built-in (D6.3142)]. The target unit cannot refuse to accept this
ECM, but it has no effect on the target’s ability to receive friendly lent EW as these are under separate limits.

Pretty conclusive, "all targets" and that would include an empty hex being targeted for a transporter action.


Also, add me to the "not reading the rule to the end" gang. Can't believe I missed that after reviewing it multiple times.

By Charles Carroll (Carroll) on Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 10:35 pm: Edit

Jon lol. Ok I give up. I still think this is a poorly worded rule. That would have been done so much better by simply saying it jams your lock on ability to an extent. But if you use ECCM you can counter it by overwhelming it.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 11:45 pm: Edit

I still recommend shooting the scout. It has to get to 15 hexes to use OEW. It is asking to be shot repeatedly.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Monday, March 26, 2018 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Shoot the scout shoot the scout... oh yes kill it.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 26, 2018 - 05:43 pm: Edit

The importance of scouts is one of those things that varies.

Scouts supporting empires with lots of seeking weapons are major force multipliers because the control of seeking weapons can be shifted. While most of the ships controlling seeking weapons can have ECM up, any seeking weapon about to strike a target can have its control shifted to a ship with ECCM that can be as much as 35 hexes from the target and relatively immune to the effects of direct fire. Which makes it difficult for the enemy to use ECM defensively.

Contrary-wise, scouts are much more limited in a fight between the Lyrans and the Hydrans because everything is pretty much "direct-fire" (allowing for suicide shuttles and Lyran carrier groups providing some drones). The Tholians have similar problems, but all of their normal opponents (before the Seltorians show up) have seeking weapons.

So in some cases it can pay dividends to kill the scout, in other cases it is not really worth the investment in firepower (due to the range degradation) to concentrate fire on a scout. You need to evaluate the circumstances carefully before diverting that much firepower from the main point of conflict.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 11:36 am: Edit

I have found scouts to be more effective in direct-fire fights than in seeking weapon ones. EW hits "hit or miss" weapons harder than plasma and drones. In a drone battle I do often have my scout spend its time turning off enemy drones.

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 07:52 am: Edit

Question re Black Hole effects on tractored units.
Currently playing a battle around a BH and my CW has my CA tractored at R0, same facing.
On imp 32, the BH gravitational pull is applied first pulling the CW towards it dragging along the CA, now does the CA also get pulled thus dragging along the CW ?
If so, these 2 ships could move 3 hexes in 1 imp ?

Thanks for clarifying.
Cheers
Frank

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 09:20 am: Edit

Francois Lemay:

This may help,

(P4.11) Procedure

If two units linked by a tractor are pulled closer to a black hole, the closer unit will pick which hex it will enter, if there is a choice between two hexes, and the other unit will precisely mirror the first ships movement.

(G7.36) Tractoring A Moving Ship:

C-
If both ships are scheduled to move in the same impulse, this is resolved as follows:

3-
If this occurs on impulse #32, the second ships movement takes place on impulse #1 of the subsequent turn (unless the link is not maintained)

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Francois, the black hole pulls both ships at the same time, the tractor is ignored. Both ships are pulled one hex (total) toward the black hole...

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 07:46 pm: Edit

That is what I thought gents.

Thanks all !

Cheers
Frank

By Charles "Lucky" Coleman (Mwmiyd) on Tuesday, April 10, 2018 - 02:21 pm: Edit

Mobile Logistics Base (MB) SFB rule (R1.24) in module R1.
Skids (R1.68 in module R11) can be attached to any pod. There are some limitations as to which auxiliary ship they can or cannot be attached to. But as far as I can tell; if the pod was detachable, it could use a skid.
With those two things said. Can a MB’s Pods (not the actual MB pods, but the other 4 detachable pods) use Skids?