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Archive through April 16, 2003

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 SSD's: Archive through April 16, 2003

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Not me. It's been that way for every one forever (almost). The Klingons, Lyrans, Tholians, various Orions will all get a basically standard disruptor but the Kzinti finally get something new. Mike and I went over a lot some time ago. The Disruptor Cannon is Kzinti only.

Likewise, Mike and I agree (I believe) on the Klingons and Lyrans using a Heavy Disruptor which is base 6 points and has a capacitor. It fires every turn.

We never said we were changing "The Disruptor". Only that the Kzinti developed the DC and adopted it as a main line weapon. Indeed, some smaller Kzinti ship may well use the old X1 Disruptor.

It's partly about racial diversity. A divergance from the old ways based on lessons learned. The Kzinti fighting style lends well to a two turn weapon. The usually hang back and let their drones set up the enemy, then go in a blast them. They have opertunity to load a heavier weapon often.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 09:43 pm: Edit

48 warp and 18 reserve power. The CCX could carry overloads, arm all phasers, and still do speed 25. And be able to switch to speed 31 at the flick of a switch.

And people wonder why I feel plasma ships will need the super sabot.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 10:25 pm: Edit

48 warp is too much for this class, IMO. At MC=1.25 it might be OK.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:38 pm: Edit

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What if Roms figured out how to cloak their Plasmas partially. You still have lock-on but the range modifier is the effect. You launch the plasma with 4-5 extra power to cloak it (depending on plasma size of course). On launch it begins fade out so launch (L) it is Range + 1. On L+5 it Range + 5. It never cloaks compleatly and every one has lock-on.

Better to rewrite that idea as the ship can fire cloaked but must launch a cloaked plasma that uncloak over the five impulses after launch.
Taken from a cloaked decoy as the technobable.

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Loren,

That would be a very powerful advantage, even if all you got was a +1 to range.

But consider the +5 bonus.
Added to the R1 ( or R2 for the sabot ) you get an effective shot at R6, which makes all bar the Ph-5 useless.

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I like it. We could call it "veiled plasma."

The problem is I also like my big, nasty Z-torp and we really can't have both.

Ah, decisions...

We could only veil small plasmas. Say cap the capability at S-torps...

I think it's a very bad idea...you're effectively saving that GW and X1 ships can't fire Phasers to reduce the warhead.
Pulling 1 and 1/12 points of damage out of the plasma at R1 per phaser 1 ( you've got to remember to halve the damage when dealing with warhead reduction ) will allow that weapon to fire with parity to a regular anti-shipping shot of R15 ( okay the shot on the plasma will be better by one point per 12 phasers you can bring to bear ).
How many ships fire plasma and get to R15 when the plasma reaches R1!?!
You just might as well say NO PHASER FIRE ON X2 PLASMA.

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I have no problem with moving this to the X-Plasma topic.

John, limited size...agreed. Type R and larger can download if they want to fire a Veiled Plasma.

It's a bad idea.
If you wanted a similar idea with an easier application you'ld just say; "PLASMA X & Z HAVE THERIR WARHEADS REDUCED BY ONE POINT FOR EVERY THIRD POINT OF PHASER DAMAGE."

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8 Drone racks are a bit much for the main line ship. Perhaps should reserve that for a variant. So how about 2 x GXX and 4 x CXX. That's 10 drones in one turn. Pretty good!

I think 10 drones per turn is fine...for a Xork invasion ship.
Something different like the C Racks were X1 B racks and then got refitted or just were emplty slots that got refitted would be more reasonable...although maybe the fact that it is the XCC and not the XCA that causes the large number of racks.

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Not me. It's been that way for every one forever (almost). The Klingons, Lyrans, Tholians, various Orions will all get a basically standard disruptor but the Kzinti finally get something new. Mike and I went over a lot some time ago. The Disruptor Cannon is Kzinti only.

I don't have a copy of Y ( more's the pitty ) so I don't see any reason to giive that ( the Kzinti ) disruptor user a special Disruptor. The real racial flavour of the Kzinti is the in the Phasers. It's a Klingon in that it uses Drones and Diruptors but not a Klingon in that it uses Ph-3s and Ph-1s instead of ther all Ph-2s of the Klingon ( this is of cause a generalisation of what the MY period had ) and with the advent of the Ph-6 ( which I suspect only the Kzinti's will use in numbers ) the perverted phaser array should be the ship's primary difference to Klingon ships, not some uber disruptor cannon.

Quote:
It's partly about racial diversity. A divergance from the old ways based on lessons learned. The Kzinti fighting style lends well to a two turn weapon. The usually hang back and let their drones set up the enemy, then go in a blast them. They have opertunity to load a heavier weapon often.

Two turns worth of drones hitting in one turn with an accurate photon to follow!?!
The Kzinti has got to have a drawback somewhere...and weak old disruptors scratching the sheilds of the enemy is a good answer.

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Likewise, Mike and I agree (I believe) on the Klingons and Lyrans using a Heavy Disruptor which is base 6 points and has a capacitor. It fires every turn.

Six disruptors on a cruiser is an increase of 50% over MY and GW Klingon Cruisers and Yet the Same old Four Fed Photons remainded, so perhaps the Klingons should just keep the 6 Disruptors of the X1 cruisers and let the other races catch up.
A Few slight increases in the Disruptor such as Disruptor Caps linked to the Phaser Caps and a 6 impulse double braodside restriction over the turn break and +2 UIM and +2 Defracs will more than compete against 24 point photons if the Klingons are mounting SIX Disruptors to the Feds Four Phot-torps.

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48 warp and 18 reserve power. The CCX could carry overloads, arm all phasers, and still do speed 25. And be able to switch to speed 31 at the flick of a switch.

And people wonder why I feel plasma ships will need the super sabot.

I'm for the Super Sabot too.

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48 warp is too much for this class, IMO. At MC=1.25 it might be OK.

X2 ships should not be making battle speeds with the X1 vessels or the GW vessels they should be going faster.
It won't matter if the Kzinti has so few Disruptors that she can overload them all and run at speed 32, it'll just be the rice of doing business...ship that can go fast don't have enough weapons when they get there...old stoy, just look at the MY period and the Fed DN and the Fed CL...fast ships when they get to where they are going but they haven't brought enough firepower with them to fight.
Some people like Fast ships with less weapons because they have styles of fighting that let them win, whilst other prefere slower ships withe the ability to inflict more damage because that is also a style that can be used to win.

I for one would like faster Kzintis than any other race because it'll mean that an old Kzinti tactic can be reborn, that of being so cloase to the enemy ship when it needs to fire on the drones that it either fires on the ship or HAS ALREADY fired on the ship.
And that's not a tactic that other races have een known to employ.
On the other hand, X2 drones having a seahorse drone capability built directly into the frame cost ( or is the motor cost ) would allow for that tactic to be even more easily employed even with speed 40 drones on hand...but having loads of energy availible for speed will even then make the tactic more workable.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 08:35 am: Edit

Quote:
I don't have a copy of Y ( more's the pitty ) so I don't see any reason to giive that ( the Kzinti ) disruptor user a special Disruptor.

That's why you don't see the need. Module Y, in describing the Carnivons, is very clear about the Kzinti's desire to have it. To quote:

YE23.0: The Disruptor Cannon is a version of the distruptor used by the Carnivons. Unlike the Disruptor Bolts used by the Klingons, Lyrans, Kzintis and others, The Disruptor Cannon is a two-turn arming weapon. It is, for game purposes, literally a disruptor that uses twice as much power, fires half as often, and twice as much damage. The Kzintis might have adopted it as their primary weapon except that it proved impossible to overload this weapon while the faster-firing Disruptor Bolt could be overloaded."

Now, if you give the 2X Kzinti the new-found ability to overload the DC, it makes perfect sense for them to use it. It's even historically a good fit, since the rules that already exist claim that they wanted it anyway. I for one have no desire to see a repeat of GW ships where every flippin' race in the game uses the same disruptor. It's time for something new, and I think the old saw about "what's old is new again" is applicable to this particular scenario.

Now, as for concerns about it being a more accurate photon. Again, it already was essentially that in Module Y, and caused no problems. Having only one race use it for 2X doesn't bother me. And, it does fit with a desire by the Kzinti to copy the crunch of the photon.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Re Disruptor Cannon. It not anything like an accurate Photon. It's damage reduces over range. THe Photon doesn't. That's the primary power of the photon. It's the only weapon that does the same damage at one as it does at maximum range. Sorry, but the Disruptor Cannon is totally different.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:26 pm: Edit

I further submit that the DC would in fact be at a disadvantage against the photon. Particularly in the X2 era where the photon CAN be fast loaded and the DC CANNOT.

The tactics for the new Kzinti (drones and DC and Ph-V's) will be compleatly new and unlike any other race. Therefore, fun and exciting. Not the same old same old.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 02:14 pm: Edit

I would give the DC a fast-standard load.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Overload in two turns, standard load in one? Should this be in another topic? Not trying to be annoying but good comments will get lost when the time to review comes about.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Quote:
Now, as for concerns about it being a more accurate photon. Again, it already was essentially that in Module Y, and caused no problems. Having only one race use it for 2X doesn't bother me. And, it does fit with a desire by the Kzinti to copy the crunch of the photon.

Okay but it must by X2 also have a one turn firing method...Photons got that in X1.

I'm also not sure if the name should be the same.
Does Disruptor Cannon get confussing in Y or do people really easily spot the difference.
I'ld like a differnt sounding name.
The Ionisation weapon. the Ioniser.
But It'ld but up to the steves really.

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Re Disruptor Cannon. It not anything like an accurate Photon. It's damage reduces over range. THe Photon doesn't. That's the primary power of the photon. It's the only weapon that does the same damage at one as it does at maximum range. Sorry, but the Disruptor Cannon is totally different.

Just to be pedantic but DRONES.
And I would actually say the same of fighters, if you fly them like seeking weapons which some people do.

I don't think the degrading damage makes it the different enough, have you seen how the photon chance to hit reduces?
If the Kzintis do get a Disruptor cannon then they probably shouldn't be able to take advantage of.
Disruptor caps, any kind of Defracs or UIM ( though they might get their own kind of Defracs under a different name ) and they shouldn't be able to take advantage of the 6 impulse delay over a turn break of the X2 Disruptor Bolt.

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I further submit that the DC would in fact be at a disadvantage against the photon. Particularly in the X2 era where the photon CAN be fast loaded and the DC CANNOT.

The tactics for the new Kzinti (drones and DC and Ph-V's) will be compleatly new and unlike any other race. Therefore, fun and exciting. Not the same old same old.

A Limitation could be good but could be bad.
Considering the Propensity for the Over-run that it's enemies will have.
X2 Feds with 16 point fastload!?!
Klingons have been doing the over-run for yonks.
Even they Hydrans are real over-run freaks.

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I would give the DC a fast-standard load.

Just let it fire as an X1 or GW Disruptor ( even let them use the UIM and Defracs ) IF IT'S GOING to be called a Disruptor Cannon.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 12:18 am: Edit

I don't think that switching a races standard heavy weapon to something they have never used before (except in tests) is a bad idea.

Have you considered for example what this will do to a Kzinti's tactics? The knife fight, a standard Kzin tactic, all of a sudden becomes a very different thing when you take away its disruptors.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 04:55 am: Edit

Quote:
I don't think that switching a races standard heavy weapon to something they have never used before (except in tests) is a bad idea.

Have you considered for example what this will do to a Kzinti's tactics? The knife fight, a standard Kzin tactic, all of a sudden becomes a very different thing when you take away its disruptors.

We're going to have to have the ability for the Kzinti Disruptor cannon to also be fired as an X1 Disruptor.
Look at their X1 enemies:-
Feds have Rapid arming 12 point photons.
Klingons have, we'll exactly what they've always had, an increadible ability to do the over run ( See, Disruptors, Turn Mode, Drones, Special Phaser arcs and X1 BTTYs ).
Hydran Fussion ships have no cooling period.
Hydran Hellbores have rapid arming.

All in all, the Kzinti X1 opponents all; have great overrun capasity and for that reason alone the X2 Kzinti must be able to fire it's DF heavy every turn even if that does mean that the Kzintis are running around with four Disruptor Cannon that can be fired as X1 Disruptors and the Klingons are running around with 6 X2 Disruptors.

The Kneif fight would be very hard to do if the Kzinti lost the bility to fire the DF Heavies every turn.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 05:00 am: Edit

Don't you hate it when you don't look at the map!!!

Okay so the Kzinti don't have a mutal boarder with the Hydrans because the Lyrans are squished in between.
Okay the Lyrans don't have a massive over run capasity in the X1 period.
On the other hand in the X2 period they might.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 09:12 am: Edit

This really needs to move to the correct topic or any useful ideas will be lost when it comes time to review proposals.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 11:32 am: Edit

A possible Fed X2 Destroyer

Fed X2 War Destroyer

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 11:00 pm: Edit

We're going to have to have the ability for the Kzinti Disruptor cannon to also be fired as an X1 Disruptor.

Or just use an X2 disruptor.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 11:19 pm: Edit

Just give it a standard-load fastload option. That way you don't have to provide a second table.

Alternately, we would need a fastload damage linr on the weapon table.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 12:56 am: Edit

The idea with the DC is that it is not the old disruptor. Make it a one turn weapon then, ta da, same old disruptor.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 11:28 am: Edit

In the same way that 24 point photons are the same weapon as 12 point fastloads!?!

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 11:34 am: Edit

Not a fair comparison. The photon has been continually refined and upgraded through the history established in the game. Starting with the standard only verion in Module Y, you then get proxies and overloads in the GW era. X1 gives you fastloads up to 12 points, and the proposed X2 gives fast loads of 16 and two-turn 24 point overloads.

The DC, however, basically disapeared with the Carnivons. It starts as a 2 turn weapon with no overload capability. If resurected for X2, giving it the overload option is enough. The point of all this being that the DC shouldn't recieve multiple upgrades just because the other DF weapons have over their history. A two-turn, 20 point disruptor is still a hell of a lot better than anything before it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 12:10 pm: Edit

The DC shouldn't get things like fastload since it is a new weapon. Maybe in 10 or 20 years.

Also, the Photon, what ever the flavor, is a one race weapon (excepting Orions of course). The Disruptor is wide spread and will remain wide spread. Using the DC will only expand the diversity. I can actually see the Kzinti mounting standard disruptors on their small ships like FFs and only mounting the DC on larger ships. Maybe even have four DC and two Disr. on a large ship (or the reverse or 2 + 2).

I hope there is going to be a reason players will want to specifically play X2and not have it be (as SVC just said regarding another subject) "Old wine in new bottles".

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Well, with the direction that the BPV has been going with you guys, X2 will be popular with the folks that like 1 big ship, and they can play against the people that like a few smaller ships.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 01:23 pm: Edit

What if they didn't overload the DC? What if they miniturized it allowing twice as many to fit on a ship?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Tos, without an OL option the DC is an overloaded disr that doesn't have a standard function,

Loren,
This is still X2. Just because the DC is a new weapon doesn't mean is has to be a lame new weapon. It has to be better than a X1 disrutorp or the Kzintis are idiots for adopting it.

It is as likley as not that the Kzinti were continually looking for corssover technology from disruptors to make the weapon usable.

At the very least, the DC should be able to fire as a standard disruptor each turn.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Why? Right now, the disruptor does 5/5. The DC will do 0/10. Why make it able to fire as a disruptor at all? It isn't lame, I don't think. Look at it this way. The X1 photon can fire 12 points every turn, with no increase in accuracy. The DC would do 10 every turn, and is significantly more accurate. I just don't see it as being that lame, and I like that it's different than the disruptor. With new improved drones, the 2X Kzinti ought to be just fine.

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