Death by NATS. Do i have enough T-Bombs? If 4 Stinger 2s get to range 1 something is going to blow up. With 90 something fighters and 24 rare so as Mega fighters. Some are going to get thru... ack.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Friday, August 17, 2018 - 06:01 pm: Edit

Big fighters swarms are doable if you fudge a few house rules such as requiring wingmen or playing blocks of impulses at a time).

I've seen campaigns where the "third way" is available to everyone - no gunboats - and you end up with otherwise unplayable fighter swarms on both sides (and the ships saying, "We're all going to stand over here out of the way...")

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Friday, August 17, 2018 - 11:32 pm: Edit

ahh, for some reason I was confusing heavy fighter and mega fighter.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Friday, August 17, 2018 - 11:36 pm: Edit

so, if your hypothetical hydran fleet had an Iron Chancellor and the Iron Duke in the same fleet what would that give as a maximum. one of which would act as the flag ship.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 18, 2018 - 12:30 am: Edit

Jim Howard:

The Hydrans are allowed one (1) squadron of true carrier based Megafighters, so having both the Iron Duke and the Iron Chancellor (which is illegal in any case as a fleet can only have one ship of size class 2) will not increase the number of true carrier based Megafighters.

Beyond that it is a question of both the size of the fleet and how many fighters are operated by the given hybrid ships.

Technically (off the top of my head as I am at home) if the total fleet had seven or fewer ships, you could pick two hybrid ships to carry up to 12 additional Megafighters. Say a CWA and a Lord Marshal.

If your fleet had more than seven ships, you would be authorized another dozen Megafighters (a total of 36). However, I do not think that increases the number of allowed hybrid ships (still only two).

So you might want a Paladin (12 Megafighters), the Ragnar (12 Megafighters), a Trooper (the 12 Megafighters on a true carrier), CWA (6 fighters), DWA (2 fighters), three Horsemen (18 fighters), three Lancers (12 fighters), a Ranger (nine fighters), and an NSC (six fighters), for a 13 ship fleet with 89 fighters, of which 36 are Megafighters.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, August 18, 2018 - 05:51 am: Edit

I never knew about the size class restriction (or if we did, we ignored it 30 years ago.) on a battle force. especially as I am now an F&E player. now I regularly field 2-3 Lyran DN's (as Lyrans can build 1 and convert 2 (3 total)per year.) where possible in a battle line by circa Y173 onwards, even if it means 1 dies per battle round.

Ted Faye, you are not the only one to like large battles .

would you be able to field, test bed, prototype, mega fighter packs in fall Y175?.

the force would consist of the following ID, TG with FS pallet, 2RN, CVM, APA, Tartar, Mongol, NSC, 2NAC, 2DWA.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, August 18, 2018 - 06:05 am: Edit

I am toying with the idea of replacing a RN with a PG PFT and testbed Howlers.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, August 18, 2018 - 12:33 pm: Edit

Howlers have extremely limited availability, don't know if such a thing is really realistic.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 18, 2018 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Jim Howard:

I never knew about the size class restriction (or if we did, we ignored it 30 years ago) on a battle force. Especially as I am now a Federation & Empire player. Now I regularly field two or three Lyran dreadnoughts [as Lyrans can build one and convert two (three total) per year] where possible in a battle line by circa Y173 onwards, even if it means one dies per battle round.

REPLY: Rule (S8.331) is pretty clear that "there can be only one." (GRIN). While not stated in the rule there are obviously three caveats. One being that players such as yourself can choose to ignore a rule, at which point you are, of course, on your own and there would be no point in asking about how the other rules work. Another is that "campaigns" have outcomes. Your campaign’s production schedules and loss rates can result in situations where the (S8.0) rules just cannot be met (and, yes, even I have engaged in one-on-one duels between dreadnoughts when I was a very active player). The third is, of course, published scenarios and campaigns. There is a published scenario where two dreadnoughts duel, although that is a "friendly" simulation (albeit using real dreadnoughts), and of course the "Lone Grey Wolf" about a Klingon dreadnought trying to escape Kzinti space clearly violates a number of (S8.0) rules, but is consistent in its own historical background.

Ted Fay, you are not the only one to like large battles.

REPLY: When I played a lot, and have fought such battles in all sorts of "terrain."

Would you be able to field, test bed, prototype, mega fighter packs in fall Y175?

REPLY: Non-specific question that cannot really be answered since I have no idea what empire you are asking about. If you were asking about the Lyrans doing so, the answer is no because the Lyrans did not go through the prototype process for Megafighters, but received the technology from the Klingons in Y177 (J16.11). If you are asking about the Hydrans, no. The Hydrans deployed Interceptors in Y179 (Annex #3B Master PF Chart), and Megafighter deployment is generally tied to the introduction of Interceptors (J16.0), so the earliest a prototype might have appeared is Y176, and it is unlikely a squadron would have appeared for combat testing prior to Y178, and under (S8.3282) the earliest year for the Hydrans to have prototypes is Y177, unless the Klingons reveal they are developing the technology earlier.

The force would consist of the following Iron Duke (24 fighters), Caravan (three fighters) with fire-support pallet, two Rangers (18 fighters total), CVM (18 fighters), Apache (Zero fighters), Tartar (Zero fighters), Mongol (six fighters), New Scout Cruiser (six fighters), two New Aegis Cruisers (12 fighters total), two Antelope Hunters (four fighters total).

REPLY: I am assuming the "CVM" is a Mohawk-V. The force as given is illegal currently under two rules, although one has a caveat.
You have a Paladin plus 12 ships, and the Paladin can only command 10, plus a free scout (S8.25); see (S8.21). There is no legal "battlegroup" (S8.28) which would normally allow an extra ship. So your force as proposed is one ship larger than normally allowed under the (S8.0) rules. The Caveat is that you might be using a command point under (S8.24), which would allow the Paladin to command 11 ships. You would have to make sure your opponent was agreeable, you could not just spring the extra ship on him except if the battle were part of a campaign that provided both sides some means of generating and using such command points.
Further, you are short one escort (S8.31), and if the year is Y175, the Iron Duke would not be using Antelope Hunters as escorts in any case (in Y175 it uses either a New Aegis Cruiser or an Aegis Destroyer, and two Aegis Hunters, it does not use Antelope Hunter Aegis Destroyers in that year). The Iron Duke is required to have three escorts (New Aegis Cruiser/Aegis Destroyer and 2xAegis Hunter), and the Mohawk-V is required to have two escorts (New Aegis Cruiser and Antelope Hunter Aegis Destroyer) for a total of five, but you only have four escorts.
You have 42 fighters that count against the 36 fighter limit (S8.32), but the nominal two squadrons of nine fighters each on the Mohawk-V count as a single squadron of 12 against that limit, so you are good there.
Under (S8.3285) 12 of the fighters on the Iron Duke, or 12 of the fighters on the Mohawk-V, or some fighters on each carrier not to exceed a total of 12 can be Megafighters. Since the fleet has a total of 10 or more ships, you are authorized an additional 24 Megafighters (provided you make the fleet legal, i.e., within command limits and with the proper numbers and types of escorts), but only two hybrid ships can be equipped with them. This would max out by equipping both Rangers with them for 18 hybrid Megafighters (To clarify "max out" in this case, while you are allowed a total of 24, you cannot have more than 18 since that is the maximum total of your two ships with the largest hybrid squadrons.).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 18, 2018 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Jim Howard:

Adding a PFT means either getting rid of the CVM, or downgrading the Iron Duke.

Rule (S8.32) allows you three fighter squadrons or three PF flotillas, or a combination of the two not to exceed three (two PF flotillas and one fighter squadron, or two fighter squadrons and one PF flotilla).

Howlers are VERY restricted. See their ship description (R9.PF3) which pretty much says they can only be used with your opponent's permission or in a published scenario. I will note that I am agreeable with this restriction, since when they first showed up I kind of sprung them on an opponent in a PF flotilla on PF flotilla duel. Another player, having heard that story, went to a convention and entered a PF flotilla demolition derby. Once his Howlers destroyed his opponent [who sad to say went into the battle announcing he had never lost a PF flotilla battle, and at the last minute when the approaching PFs had not fired yet suddenly looked up and said "Those are Howlers, aren't they." (It was not a question at that point)]. The other two players (all four flotillas were in play at the same time) looked over to where the vaporized flotilla had been, and agreed to work together against the Howlers; it did not matter, only one Flotilla still had PFs on the map in the end.

It should be noted, however, that the above incidents were based on the original design of the Howler, which had four phaser-Gs and two phaser-2s and was a lot more vicious than the current three phaser-Gs and three phaser-2s.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 18, 2018 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Jim Howard:

To be clear (as I think you counted the 13 ships in my fleet and thought that you could just have 13 also), what I did was take a dreadnought (command rating 10, meaning I can have 10 ships in addition to the dreadnought). Then I used the "battle group" rule to create a "battle group" which can only have light cruisers, war cruisers, destroyers, or frigates, but can be six ships counting as five ships to create a batte group. This was the three Horsemen (war cruisers) and three Lancers (destroyers). Note that a battle group might have as many as six destroyers, but cannot have more than three war cruisers or light cruisers (S8.282), that is you could choose not to take cruisers and use all destroyers or frigates, but the total number of ships in a battle group is limited to six ships. And a fleet cannot have more than one battle group.

So at that point my Dreadnought was commanding five ships (actually six). Then I added the carrier group (the Trooper) and its two escorts for another three ships. The Dreadnought is now commanding eight ships, although there are nine actual ships because of the battle group.

With two command slots remaining, I added the Ragnar (because for the example I wanted to use all 24 Hybrid Megafighters, 12 on the Paladin and 12 on the Ragnar, and the Ragnar is a unique variant of the Ranger, only one ship of its type ever built, but it carries a full 12 fighters as a hybrid ship) and a Ranger (working on trying to maximize fighters over all). Technically I would have had to ask my opponent for permission to use the Ragnar (S8.44).

At that point my Dreadnought (one ship) is commanding 10 other ships (its maximum command rating) but there are 11 ships actually under it (because of the battlegroup of six ships counting as five ships) giving me a fleet of 12 ships.

To that I added a New Scout Cruiser as the "free scout" giving me a 13 ship fleet.

I was avoiding the use of a "command point" as those are usually used for assaults on fixed installations (starbases, significant planets), but if one had been available would probably have added another Ranger to the force (a 14th ship). Also, I could have added mech links and a maximum of 12 fast patrol ships (two "casual" flotillas with no leaders or scouts since there is already a fighter squadron on the Trooper preventing me from adding a third flotilla).

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, August 18, 2018 - 08:47 pm: Edit

Only three Horsemen?? Steve, we all know you really want to bring in all Four Horsemen.

Seriously, I'm in awe that you can do these fighter counts while typing "off the top of your head".

For his next trick, folks, Steve will list the full drone load options for a Kzinti SSDS-lead assault fleet! You're amazing, Steve.

()


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 18, 2018 - 09:29 pm: Edit

Garth Getgen:

Sssshhh.

If you keep callng attention, someone will realize the New Scout Cruiser is the fourth Horseman!

By Jarod Ikeda (Allanon) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 12:05 am: Edit

Hello question on Hydran ships with fighters.

J4.623 - clearly states a Hydran with fighters is a fully-capable carrier.
The master ship chart clearly shows Hydrans with fighters with a "V".
In the notes on the Master ship chart it clearly says anything with a "V" is a "True Carrier".

Yet Charles Carroll says he emailed Steve Petrick himself and was told that Hydrans are not true carriers and thus cannot buy deck crews, lend EW to their squadrons, etc...

Please confirm.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 12:17 am: Edit

From previously in this forum:

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 15, 2018 - 06:55 pm: Edit

Charles Carroll:

Only "true" carriers can purchase extra deck crews; see Note #2 under Crew and Marines in Annex #6 and (J4.816).

Hydran "true" carriers are generally listed under (R9.R4). Most other Hydran ships with fighters are "hybrid ships" and while they have many of the capabilities of "true carriers" (e.g., able to lend electronic warfare to their squadrons) they are not carriers. This matters a lot when you think of building a battle force, as the fighters on "true carriers" count against the "three squadron limit" while the fighters on "hybrid carriers" do not. By the same token the fighters on "casual carriers" (such as the WYN Pocket Battleship) do count against the fighter limit.

So you can have a legal fleet of a Trooper (12 fighters) with its NAC (six fighters) and AH (no fighters) counting as one squadron of 12 fighters as a carrier group, with a cruiser squadron of a Lord Marshal (six fighters) and two Rangers (18 fighters), and an Iron Duke (24 fighters) as the other two squadrons of fighters (now three total) with a NAC (six fighters) and two AH (no fighters) with an Overlord (six fighters) with an NSC (six fighters) for a total of 84 fighters, 36 being from the two carriers.

Note: It is entirely possible to assemble a Hydran fleet with even more fighters legally, the above was just a fast assembly off the top of my head. Replacing the AHs with DWAs would add six more fighters.

But, again, Hybrid ships are not true carriers and not eligible to purchase additional deck crews.

By Charles Carroll (Carroll) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 12:53 am: Edit

I still hate losing my deck crews...they are so important in getting fighters ready to launch when your WS goes into the crapper.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 01:00 am: Edit

Jarod Ikeda:

Hydran ships cover the full course.

Some Hydran ships are true carriers and can (among other things) operate heavy fighters and under (J4.816) are allowed to purchase extra deck crews. These ships are listed under (R9.R4). They are fully capable carriers and are also subject to the restrictions, i.e., they must have escorts, their fighters count against the total of three squadrons/PF flotillas a given battle force is allowed to have. Note that a newly added true carrier might not be listed in (R9.R4), but will say it is a true carrier in its ship description and be listed in an extract of (R9.R4) in the product where it is introduced. At the time of its release a complete listing of all extant Hydran true carriers was included under (R9.R4) in the Hydran Master Starship Book.

The Hydrans also have what can be considered "standard" warships, that is ships with no fighters at all, such as the Traveler light cruiser. They operate as any non-Hydran non-carrier ship except obviously with Hydran weapons.

Then we have a small number of "casual carriers," such as a Pegasus PF tender replacing one of its shuttles with a Stinger-F. While it has a fighter, and by rule some limited supplies to support it (reload chaff packs for example), it is not otherwise a carrier for any purpose. Except that its one fighter DOES count against the limit of 36 total fighters allowed in the battle force.

Lastly we have the hybrid ships. This is any Hydran ship that normally operates fighters, but is not designated a "true carrier" under (R9.R4). Whether the ship is a Paladin dreadnought (12 fighters) or a lowly Lancer destroyer (four fighters). These ships cannot operate heavy fighters or purchase deck crews, but they can lend their fighters electronic warfare as a squadron, and do have chaff packs and pods for their fighters. They have additional advantages in that they do not require escorts (caveat, dreadnoughts do require "consorts," they do not travel alone, but these can be any ship, not a specialized escort as required by a "true carrier"). Further, their fighters do not count against the limit of 36 fighters in a battle force.

By Charles Carroll (Carroll) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 01:42 am: Edit

One last question on Hydrans in particular...

I believe it says in the rules about deck crews that all ships have two DC for standard shuttle craft maintenance and the loading of scatterpacks, WW and SS. Under carriers...it says that all ships carrying fighters...have 1 DC per Fighter in addition to the standard DC complement.

Correct?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 01:57 am: Edit

I do not find the line 'in addition to the standard DC complement' or anything like it under carriers.

I'm pretty sure that the 'standard' two deck crews are part of a carrier's total allotment of deck crews rather than part of it.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 02:04 am: Edit

Carles Carroll:

I am at home away from my reference materials (over the years being immersed in it I fear I have reached a point that I want time away from it, sorry).

I cannot thus give you a precise answer until Monday, unless it is critical and must be answered as soon as possible, in which case I will head into the office to minimize the delay.

In the interim, off the top of my head I think the rule you are looking for is (J4.814).

By Charles Carroll (Carroll) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 03:45 am: Edit

No hurry....I am just trying to get a definitive idea of how many deck crews I have to work with.

(J4.81) DECK CREWS: All carriers (of any empire) have a number of “deck crews” equal to the number of fighters carried. (Some ships are designated to have a different number.)

(J4.814) All ships not formally assigned a number of deck crews by Annex #7G are assumed to have two deck crews. These can be used for loading scatter-packs, repairing shuttles, changing modular pallets on multi-role PFs, etc. Carrier escorts (with ready racks but without fighters) and casual carriers have one deck crew per ready rack (minimum two deck crews). These deck crews cannot be transferred to another ship. If transferred as a crew unit (e.g., during an evacuation) they do not retain their abilities as a deck crew. If killed during a scenario, there is no way to replace them from the crew.

The last seems to say that the deck crews are a minimum of two...which all ships have...and when fighters get added...you end up with each fighter gets one deck crew so even though the ship had 2 and now it has an example 6 fighters.
A Lord Marshal for instance. It would get 6 deck crews...but the first two deck crews are already there...and the last 4 make up the total of six allowed. So 2+4=6 instead of the other way to consider it which is 2+6...1 for each fighter added.

Personally from a realistic look...there would be 8...the lowly admin shuttle guys...and the fighter jocks personal repair guys.

Chuck

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 04:18 am: Edit

Charles Carroll:

The rules seem pretty clear.

If a ship has no fghters, it has two deck crews whether it has one shuttle (Klingon E4), or it has five shuttles (Klingon C9).

If a ship has fighters, whether two fighters and a shuttle (Hydran Buffalo Hunter) or 24 size 1 fighters, six size 2 fighters, and six shuttles (Federation Space Control Ship, allowing for the fact that by rule each heavy fighter has two deck crews), there are no deck crews but those for the fighters, and they also handle the non-fighter shuttles.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 10:42 am: Edit

As someone who is getting ready to command Hydrans in a campaign (albeit a campaign starting in Y160 with non-historical placement/alliances), this has all been a fascinating read.

By Charles Carroll (Carroll) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Yeah its clear...Steve lol. I just want and NEED more deck crews....for my hybrids hehe.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Sunday, August 19, 2018 - 11:42 pm: Edit

the CVM in question would be a Cossack (medium cruiser hull CV.), not a mohawk V (heavy cruiser hull (technically a CVA but not in SFU.).).
the battleforce does indeed have a command point allocated since the scenario in question is a planetary attack including full Klingon occupation forces (large gas giant major industrial planet.) 2 Klingon BATS (one either side of the planet (30 def sats spread evenly around the planet) 2 large fighter based ground bases 6 PH4 ground bases plus the Klingon Fleet defence force (fought on four SFB maps joined together.).
the whole scenario comprises testbed Hydran vessels and new kit coming online for the Hydrans in oct Y175 ie the 1st of each medium cruiser class fielded (so this is a 'sort of' special battlegroup in its own right (a once tried strategy.).
with heavy Klingon defences, an additional ranger replaces the missing escort (if I were to play with the Iron Duke ever, it would always be fielded with 1 or 2 NAC's and 1 or 2 Antelope hunters) and since (in F&E) there are a larger number of nearby Hydran and Klingon forces the scenario assumes hiving off other escorts to fight a bigger fleet action in nearby deep space. this may even develop into a mini campaign scenario.
I have to write a bunch of fiction along 2 timelines (Y172 and late Y175.) to reflect BEM mentality, friction between the guilds and the monarchy.
the way I've seen it with all the reading and looking at what the Hydrans seemed to get wrong all the time in the timeline. the Hydrans tend to act too soon and come unstuck at a strategic level. despite better kit ( in fewer numbers.).

the PFT replacement would move the scenario to a later time period (to include the meag fighter packs too.).
steve P, I was not building this force using standard SFU flavour but by personal preference and the scenario idea. ie who would use an aegis hunter when antelope hunter is available (BPV issues and balance aside (in war rarely is a battle 'balanced'(usually one sides forces the issue with greater odd's in their respective favour.).) or are about (except by the fact that all ships and classes are sparse for the Hydrans throughout the general war after the loss of the capital.).
the howlers are used (probably with a Valkyrie replacing one and a scout another leaving 1 leader and 3 normal howlers) because the opposition is very tough, with heavy defences and therefore the wonder PF if available would be used for this fight above others in the local area/theatre of action.
sorry for this rambling response.
Jim.