Archive through April 17, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 SSD's: Archive through April 17, 2003
By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 02:55 pm: Edit

"without an OL option the DC is an overloaded disr that doesn't have a standard function,"
But it is a two turn weapon. That is what makes it different and interesting.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 03:50 pm: Edit

COnsider, as well, that the DC fires that power as standard so is no limited in range. The DC increases crunch power. The value of which was learned from the Feds. Further more, it doesn't require special power (though in X2 era that's not a big bonus). To the Kzinti the DC may well mean the best of both worlds.

How does it compair to the Klingons? Well, I figure the Klingons will be getting a slightly better damage out put for the power and will have a Capacitor. So, if they play a good game they could come out ahead. The Kzinti can use a set up (drones) and hammer (more drones and DC's) tactic. If they mix their disruptors they can maintain a deterant every turn.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 04:09 pm: Edit

OK, I bow to the will of the majority. Be intertesting to see it in action (and make for an interesting refit)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 08:48 pm: Edit

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The DC, however, basically disapeared with the Carnivons. It starts as a 2 turn weapon with no overload capability. If resurected for X2, giving it the overload option is enough. The point of all this being that the DC shouldn't recieve multiple upgrades just because the other DF weapons have over their history. A two-turn, 20 point disruptor is still a hell of a lot better than anything before it.


Maybe that would hold up if this were an RPG but it's not, so let look at the tactical responses to the situation.

If you X2C-racks, how many spaces do you have?
I've seen SSDs with 6...I'ld be inclinded to say 6 but lets say 5.
And the Kzinti does a turn of battled called a primary fire point and dishes up it's disruptor cannon fire.
Now how many drones are in the rack?
3 spaces or 1...remember that that C-racks can launch 2 per turn ( though me might make that three ) so you could have launched 2 Type XI drones and only have one type X left.
Now with No Disruptor Cannon rapid fire ability and only one Type X drone in each X2C-rack, is the Kzinti a prime candidate for THE OVER RUN?...lets see:-

Feds can rapid overload their Photons for 12 point and probably 16 point warhead and thus are likely to try the over run.

Lyrans have disruptors and Ph-5s and thus can perform the over run without much of a problem, even with the ESG down.

The Klingons have Disruptors and Ph-1s and X2B-racks ( 8 spaces? ) and thus are also able to perform the over run very well if they choose to.

The Kzintis only really have two options, run real fast, which is hard to do it you also want to recharge the Caps-to-SSReo connected CAPS.
On the other hand, there is another option. Bluff the enemy into not over running you.
With the ability to have on the turn after firning four overloaded disruptors ( and theoretically upto three spaces of type X drones in the X2C-racks, you could cause the enemy to find descression to be the better part of valour.


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The DC shouldn't get things like fastload since it is a new weapon. Maybe in 10 or 20 years.

Also, the Photon, what ever the flavor, is a one race weapon (excepting Orions of course). The Disruptor is wide spread and will remain wide spread. Using the DC will only expand the diversity. I can actually see the Kzinti mounting standard disruptors on their small ships like FFs and only mounting the DC on larger ships. Maybe even have four DC and two Disr. on a large ship (or the reverse or 2 + 2).

I hope there is going to be a reason players will want to specifically play X2and not have it be (as SVC just said regarding another subject) "Old wine in new bottles".


Anothere RPG oriented post.
The Kzinti admiralty just wouldn't impliment the introduction of the weapon unless it could provide defensive fire.
There is no point in having the most powerful weapon system if you're dead before you can arm it.

If there is to be a disruptor cannon, then it has to carry a fast loaded option.
Remember the Feds can carry off the Two turn weapon system better because they have an all Ph-1 Phaser Suite and latter an all Ph-1 ( except for a pair of Ph-3s which is really negliagable ) and G-rack combo making thier ability to deal with the over run far better than the Forrest of Ph-3s ( and latter Ph-6s ) that the Kzinti becomes dependant upon.


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I just don't see it as being that lame, and I like that it's different than the disruptor. With new improved drones, the 2X Kzinti ought to be just fine.


Its drone racks will likely be empty and it's Phasers are too short ranged to really stop a Klingon X1 or X2 from going down to R5 and hitting it around for a a turn.
The Kzinti is too depenant on the defensive nature of the one turn Disruptor to move to a two turn only disruptor cannon.
The Klingons will retain the capaisty in the Xork periof to mount 6 Disruptors on their ships.
four Disruptor cannon that can also fire as disruptors will be about 50% better than four Disruptors or be the equavilant of 6 disruptors.
The Disruptor cannon needs a rapid fire mode and thus keeping the ability to fire it as an X1 Disruptor would be the right thing to do.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 09:17 pm: Edit

That's silly. Sorry, but it is. First of all, the game went by for what, 20 years or so with no fast-load photon? The core races of the game had this very same dichotomy of speed vs. damage, and it worked just dandy. Hell, the Feds couldn't fire heavies every turn until X1, and they didn't even HAVE any drones to speak of to begin with. I don't remember it being such a huge problem. It's the same paradigm as we've had for years...trading weapon speed for damage. Secondly, the Carnivons themselves face this exact situation in Module Y. I've yet to hear that they're "huge candidates for overruns" just because the DC can't fire every turn...and they have far less drone ability than the Kzintis. Besides, you can't only compare 2X to 2X; the Kzinti may spend the bulk of their time fighting 0X or 1X opponents, and will do just fine with the DC.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 09:49 pm: Edit

Besides, if you want to fly through the number of drones a Kizinti will throw at you, be my guest. If the Kzinti is out of drones, doesn't have his DC's either, and isn't running away he's an idiot.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:21 pm: Edit

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That's silly. Sorry, but it is. First of all, the game went by for what, 20 years or so with no fast-load photon?


Read what I said abiout the Ph-3 suite and the Ph-1 suite.


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Hell, the Feds couldn't fire heavies every turn until X1, and they didn't even HAVE any drones to speak of to begin with. I don't remember it being such a huge problem.


So the Feds got the G-rack to oppose the Klingons replacing their F-racks with B-racks. What I'm saying is the Phasers suite remains balanced to a certain threat rupulsing ability through out the MY-GW period and the Kzinti Doesn't have that being far too limited with lots of Ph-3s instead of a goodly number of Ph-1s.


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Besides, you can't only compare 2X to 2X; the Kzinti may spend the bulk of their time fighting 0X or 1X opponents, and will do just fine with the DC.


X1 Klingons will have a big capasity for over runs. I agree that since the GW Photon is a two turn arming weapon and the DC is a more efficent weapon than the Phot-torp that therefore the DC user should be able to have AN ADVANATGE he can employ but I think the Disadvantage of having a Ph-6 oriented phaser suite is a bigger disadvantage than the advantage of getting 10 damage at R1 5/6 of the time for 4 power ( instead of 5 power, 5/6 of the time with a point of feedback )...the extra point of power for movement per DC for the loss of 1.33 points of damage ( on acount of the 1/6 of shots that will miss ) isn't really going to beable to match that fact that 10Ph-6 and 4Ph-5 (28points) won't come close to R5 fire of 8Ph-5s ( Fed ) (36points) or 12 Ph-1s Klingon (42points).
Between a loss of 22% and 33% of phaser firepower isn't going to be offset by 4 points of extra availible power.
The Kzintis are probably a lot better off going for the two turn power of the photon and an All Ph-5 suite than the DC and a Ph-6 based phaser suite.

I wouldn't be opposed to a DC that has a two turn only fire, in the GW, or even in the X1 period but with the Fed having Fastloaded Photon in X1, by the time X2 comes along you will probably have a Kzinti desire to have a two turn arming weapon that has a fastload capasity.
From Y125 then end of the Y period to Y205, you've got 80 years to develop the Disruptor Cannon.
It can easily be a disruptor cannon that has a fastload that can be developed when you've got that many years to impliment it.
Perhaps X1R should have X1 Kzintis that had the highly experimental ( kinda like the Klingon D7Z ) Disruptor Cannon that could be overloaded but didn't have a single turn fire mode.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:31 pm: Edit

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Besides, if you want to fly through the number of drones a Kizinti will throw at you, be my guest. If the Kzinti is out of drones, doesn't have his DC's either, and isn't running away he's an idiot.


The enemy only has to get to R5, the Kzinti is probably only low on drones and the Kzinti will have to pay for overloaded disruptors that he can't use this turn...or are we sugesting that we give the DC a dial up photon ( or more accurately a dial up PPD ) quality in being able to arm the first turn with less power than the full, 4 points.
If he runs away he puts himself in a position where he'll have to spend another turn readying himself ( a three turn weapon for double the damage!?! ) so the Kzinti needs the ability to have the fastloaded disruptor shots to keep the Feds, Lyrans and Klingons at bay.

There's very few paths of recoarse unless the Kzinti has a single turn arming possibility...it's phaser suite is just too lacking to forgo one turn DF energy weapons.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:55 pm: Edit

You're making too many assumptions.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 12:00 am: Edit

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Secondly, the Carnivons themselves face this exact situation in Module Y. I've yet to hear that they're "huge candidates for overruns" just because the DC can't fire every turn...and they have far less drone ability than the Kzintis.


Simple question.

Remembering that almost every race in Y has a Ph-2 suite, did the Carnivons have a Ph-3 suite or a Ph-2 suite?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 01:02 am: Edit

Who said the Kzinti were going to have a Ph-6 oriented phaser suite? To design the Kzinti X2 phaser suite in line with the past (which you don't have to do) the Z-XCC would have six Ph-5 and four Ph-6 and will likely have a heafty six drone racks (at least two of which will be XC racks).

So, you think I'm empty?? Forgot about Scatter Packs didn't you. And mines and, OK over run me, four Ph-6 and six Ph-5 is gonna hurt, a lot! And next turn...start bending over because OL DC are going to be scarrier than photons!

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 01:14 am: Edit

Giving anyone else the single turn crunch of the photon just bothers me. Anyone else? Jeez, everyone wants the wonder weapon, and gripes if they don't get a cookie.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 02:13 am: Edit

6Ph-5s and 4Ph-6s and four Disruptors!?!
Sorry that's a Lyran with drones.
The Kzinti are going to have to be more like 10Ph-6 and 4Ph-5s. Maybe 4Ph-5s and 6 Ph-6, but not 6Ph-5s and 4Ph-6.

Quote:

Giving anyone else the single turn crunch of the photon just bothers me. Anyone else? Jeez, everyone wants the wonder weapon, and gripes if they don't get a cookie.


I agree.
Doing 12 points of damage 4/6 of the time out at R8, without the aid of things that can burn out like UIM is getting a little on the strong side for a race to whom the Heavy DF Energy Weapon is an anicillary weapon system.
Weapon Output @R8 throughput at R8 Arming output per turn launcher per ship output per ship per turn
X2 Photon 12 per tube 1.0 4-8+8-4 6.0 4 24
X2 Disruptor 6 per bolter 1.5 4 6.0 6 36
X2 Disruptor Cannon 8 per launcher 2 4+4 4.0 4 16


I'm not opposed to the Disruptor cannon except for the following reasons:-
•If it gets a UIM in any way shap or form, it'll start to serious alter the balance ( +1 UIM will generate an ouput on a cruiser of 20 per turn ( which is 40 on the turn of fire ) and +2 like X2 disruptors would generate an output per turn of 24 ( which is 48 per turn on the turn of fire ) ).
•The Phaser suite of the Kzinti will need a fast arming form of the weapon, at 4 power for a fast loaded shot with the R15 fastload limit, the Disruptor cannon won't be too much like an X1 Photon and will be weaker than the 12 X2 fastloaded photon.
• The weapon shouldn't change the Kzinti ships to be a DF dependant empire.
• The X2 Photon doesn't get castrated such that the X2 Photon isn't a better weapon CHRUCH-wise than the DC.
An R0 exchange of Photons and DC shouldn't come out with the Feds taking 80 points of damage and only inflicting back 64...it won't be so bad when the feds can generate 96...but just barely.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 02:14 am: Edit

It's just that I haven't heard any good arguements against the DC. Some say it will weaken the Kzinti. I say no way to that. Indeed it may be a bit too powerful since OL'ed at close range can generate 20 points each (with disruptor accuracy)!

It might should be a +50% damage for over loading. I think play testing will tell.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 03:14 am: Edit

It is a photon Loren, with good accuracy, plain and simple.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 06:46 am: Edit

Quote:

It is a photon Loren, with good accuracy, plain and simple.



The reverse could easily be said of the X1 photon...that it's a disruptor that does more damage.

You continue to bring this up, but keep forgetting that it already exists. We're not talking about some new wonder weapon. It didn't break Y for the Carnivons to have it, so why will it hurt to bring it back? In Y, you had a two turn photon that did 8 points. No overloads, no proxies. In Y, you also had a two turn DC that did 10 points. I didn't hear anyone call it a wonder weapon, and it certainly didn't break the game that I know of. Just because it has a similar flavor to the photon doesn't mean it is one. It has no proxie function. Damage drops off with range, just like a disruptor. Those are two pretty significant differences...especially the reduced damage over range.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 08:29 am: Edit

Crunch Power.

They'll come to their primary fire point.
Launch drones.
Probably from 2C-racks and 4 B-racks and then fire.
A Typical opponent, a Fed CA will have 2G-racks with which to launch and 4 X2 Photons.
Taking the R2 damage (although the results are equal in R2-4 when comparing DC and Phot-torp), the Kzinti will do (5/6*16*4) 53.33 and the Fed will do (5/6*24*4) 80.
And then there is the 6 drones that won't be stopped by Fed drones.

This then is the big call.
Should the Kzinti no only have a weapon that beats the pants off the X1 Photon at R4 to zero ( and particularly at R1 & zero where the DC can project upto 80 points of damage ) AND have lots of type X and XI drones!?!...and I do mean lots.
Even with lots of Type VII and VIII drones they question stills stands.

What right does the Kzinti have ( other than because we'ld like to alter the BPV of ships with respect to relative BPV between races )...to not only have a heavy weapon ( the massive drone launcher array ) BUT ALSO another heavy weapon!?!
Kzinti Disruptors ( and the Arcs and the numbers bear this out ) have always been an ancilliary weapon to aid the drones.
The Kzintis do not need to Uber weapons, they should have one uber-weapon ( the drone swarm ) and one back up heavy weapon to aid in the crushing enemy shields at range against opponants with enough phasers and ADDs to defend themselves against the drone wave.

A Super accurate Photon ( that happens to do less damage at range ) might be able to mounted on X2 ships ( particularly with the development of the 24 point Photon ) but 24/8/40 & 48/10/40 (or even 24/8/32 & 48/10/32) drones coupled with such a weapon is just going too far.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 09:59 am: Edit

I would also like to make know my reasons for being against a 50% overload for the Disruptor Cannon.

Consider the X1 Standard Disruptor shot from R5 to R15.
The chance of a hit is constant and the damage is constant.
Now consider the X1 non UIM overload shot.
Now consider them over two turns as one of each.
Now consider the damage of a 50% overload Disruptor cannon.
One will yeild 3x4/6 + 6x4/6 whilst the other will yeild 9x4/6 and then ask yourself this question.
Will an X2 cruiser be able to fire an R8 overload shot when the enemy is trying to get to R8 for and attack and in the off turn fire from no farther away than R15?
Then consider if the X2 ships with X1 disruptors will be able to fire twice within R8 on a GW or X1 ship.

The Advanatage of firing 9x4/6 is that you can smash down sheilds.
The advantage of firing 3x4/6 + 6x4/6 is that if you are shooting through shields anyway (on account of drones and phasers and is particularly likely if your X2 cruiser is fighting a task group of GW cruisers), you increase the chance of getting the A3 and A11 DAC hits.

However there is another pair of advanatges to firing the X1 Disruptor over the Disruptor Cannon with a 50% overload.
1) Against slow ships ( GW ships ) you are likely to make your attack into 6x4/6 + 6x4/6.
2) Against other X2 ships firing one standard and one overload means you pay 2+4 instead of 4+4 and thus have 2 points of power per disruptor, and with X2 BTTY that saved power can be employed very well.


I'm not saying I'm against having the disruptor cannon with a partial overload of either 2+4 or 4+2 and a full overload of 4+4 but I am saying a 50% increase in damage for 4+4 arming wouldn't get past the Kzinti admiralty...they already have X1 Disruptors, why switch to something less effective.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 10:07 am: Edit

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( instead of 5 power, 5/6 of the time with a point of feedback )...


Don't you just hate finding typos.

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( instead of 5 power, 6/6 of the time with a point of feedback )...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 12:31 pm: Edit

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What right does the Kzinti have ( other than because we'ld like to alter the BPV of ships with respect to relative BPV between races )...to not only have a heavy weapon ( the massive drone launcher array ) BUT ALSO another heavy weapon!?!



Rights???? You're talking rights???

And now you're changing your story, MJC? I thought you said the DC would make the Kzinti weak. Now you say it will make them too powerful.

The Phaser araingement I spoke of is reflective of past Kzinti load outs. Some races will have the same load out of phasers as other races. That doesn't make one race another.
========================================
The arguements presented so far, to me, only support the reason there should not be a fast load DC option but not much of a reason to not have the Kzinti take a step forward on their own. Things change. The Kzinti have been getting pounded for some time now and I think them the best candidate for a change.

Let the Kzinti become a dangerous foe but limited resources keep them balanced (stratigically).

One last thing, that Phaser arrangement was for the big Kzinti XCC, not a simple cruiser. The XCM would probably have 4 Ph-V + 4 Ph-6 with 2xC-Rack and 2xGX racks.

There are other weapons that have a +50% damage overload option. If the DC proves to be too powerful this is an alternative to scrapping the weapon.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 12:41 pm: Edit

,,,abd if the DC is too photon-like, just up the photon. :)

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Also, with the Civil Wars ans such that the Kzinti are involved in after the war, and the amount of damage they will be suffering makes it highly unlikely that they would come up with a new version of an old theme.

Just give them back their disruptors, and then increase the number and types of drones they throw. Remember the Kzin are the DRONE race. Giving them as much crunch as a Fed is just NOT right.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 01:37 pm: Edit

Kzinyiswere always death at point-blank range (all those phaser-3's)

It's only as good as a photon at range 0-1 IIRC. That's the 20 damage column. after that we're looking at 16 out to 4, 12 to 8.

That's not photon strength, not proposed X2 photon strength anyway.

The proposed heavy disruptor is close to this, doing 15-12-9 at those same range breaks.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 02:49 pm: Edit

John, exactly. So the proposed X2 Disruptor deals more average damage but the DC gets a crunch value (and hence a deterent value).

The other advantage for the DC is that at long range it does twice the damage as a standard disruptor (sort of an unlimited range OL disr.) Doing this damage in one turn rather than two mean there is more likely the chance of getting through reinforcement.

Kzinti's don't overrun as a opening move. They soften you up and set you up with drones. The over run for the Kzinti is the Coup de` gras.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 03:00 pm: Edit

I'll be the kill joy again. WRONG TOPIC!

Might I suggest the Disruptor topic?

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