Archive through April 20, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 drones: Archive through April 20, 2003
By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 07:39 pm: Edit

X0 is Ship BPV + Drone BPV. X1 BPV includes drones. Which method does X2 follow? If X2 drones come in speed 32 and 40 which method should X2 follow?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Ah, I percieve. Well, off the top of my head I'd say that if you're talking about multi-flavored, multi-speed drones, you'd go with the X0 pricing.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Didn't X1 already eliminate the dedicated ADD rack, and replace all of them with Gx racks?

Although the multi role ships might reduce the number of systems, no admiral is going to downgrade from a Gx to an ADD.

With a Gx rack, if a captain needs an ADD, he fires one. If he doesn't, he can get a bigger drone wave.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 09:16 pm: Edit

It did, but eliminating the rack didn't eliminate ADD's. The improved table for ADD's John mentioned reflects the use of an ADD from a GX2 (or other ADD throwing) drone rack. I agree, though, that ADD racks as we know them have probably lived out there usefullness, with one possible exception. The Frax use a combination phaser-G and ADD 12 (the AFD). Since the Klingons "invented" it for the simulators, actually developing it for use on 2X ships wouldn't be something I'd see as out of the question.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Yeah.

If all drones are speed 40 ( or all speed 32 for that matter ) then it will be simpler to just add the X2 to the price of the ship but if there is to be multiple levels of drone speeds then the traditionaly purchasing regeim should be followed.


As to ADDs some people say that the DX ( the X1 D7 ) is weakened by the fact that instead of having 2B-racks and an ADD, it merely has 2G-racks and that this should be restored, personnaly I don't see it, the Rapid pulse phasers and the G-racks can provide increadible drone defense but the ADD rack provides only very limited offense ( 1 Type VI per turn anyone!?!).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 09:09 pm: Edit

The Frax might use an imaginary ADD round with much better performance or might use a an X2E-rack instead of the ADD or might even have a high powered version of the X2ED-rack, say one that can fire every impulse just like the ADD could, it is after all a simulator race.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 04:21 pm: Edit

We have looked at different ideas in the x-thread for drones. It seems we have looked at biffer faster drones. Speed 32 seems fine as long as ships are limited to 31-32. If your runnibg at 21 to avoid the drones then they seem to be doing their job. But maybe there are other areas to examine. Smarter drones. maybe comparable to modern day missles.

Stealth drone idea 1. give the drone a a stealth quality. Because of design it absorbs or reflects the scanner or sensor waves. Do this through and ecm adjustment.

Stealth drone idea 2. (more radical). The drone launching player announces launch, the drone is then removed from the map and the movement is then recorded by the launching player. In order to detect the drone or drones the other players must apply power to their labs to detect the stealth drone. at a specific range 5-8 hexes from the target.If the item were targeted on a ship without labs or a shuttle/fighter the ship could use a bridge box for the same, the shuttle/fighterwould obtain visually contact at the same range, after all we are hiding sensor signals not actual visual contact(assumption shuttles/fighters have a see through canopy). This would make the use of TBs more difficult and might change someones tactics somewhat. This methods would result in the greatest number of rule changes needed, which is a large disadvantage within the game system.

3. Faster firing drone racks. Discussed in many places, evoltionary, not revoltionary.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Visual contact?? Of something the size of a VW bus travelling at translight speeds, that's 50,000+ kilometers away??

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Hey, speed is relative(very). Just hope your maintaining the same relative distance. Fighters would need a system, maybe a passive detector that would detect when a weapon locked on to you.

Not all ideas are the best.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 05:57 pm: Edit

1/4 space ECM module + 1/4 space armor. Gives the drone, and only the drone, 6 ECM for 32 impulses plus adds one point of damage.

X2 ECM drones may mix armor and ECM.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 08:56 pm: Edit

Quote:

X2 ECM drones may mix armor and ECM.


Yeah, that's my thinking.

I you want to protect you drones, uou give one of the drones in the swarm an ECM module, since X1 and X2 have rapid pulse phasers to some degree, some with some good range, Armour for ECM drones becomes the most likely design development.


It's part of the X2 should remove a lot of the "You can not"s from the game theory of design.

By Ed Grondin (Ensignedg) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Not sure if this has been mentioned. It is in regards to the 'problems' of firing at items moving faster than speed 32 and the associated 2 hex per impulse jumps.

Perhaps there could be two distinct movement phases per impulse. The first being when all normal movement occurs for that impulse. The second after all other impulse activities have occurred. This way an item moving faster than 32 will still be at range 1 during the direct fire segment but will also move again before the next impulse. Make this available only to seeking weapons.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 04:27 pm: Edit

I suggested perhaps a 5th Aegis segment during movement a couple of months ago...

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Theres no real need for it.

The X2s will have the ability to fire Rapid pulse Ph-6s and effective destroy R2 drones and effectively reduce the warhead of R2 Plasma.

The GWs will have...well a bout three times as many Ph-1s and three times as many speed 32 drones as the X2 ships ( in an exqual BPV fight ) and thus will have the ability to defend themselves nicely.

In a fight where a 130 Point Klingon XFF fight s a 125 point Fed CA the one Type X drone that the X2E-rack could launch per turn could be hard to destroy being a 24/8/40 or possibly 24/16/40 if it's a type X-XA" drone.
But the fed really can defend it's self with any of the following.
An R2 tractor for 2 points of power ( possibly comming from your 4 BTTY ).
2 to 4 R2 Phaser-1 shots (after IDing the Drone with 8 Lab attempts free ).
1 R2 Or even R3 or R4, overloaded photon and 3 points of ECCM ( you have four points of BTTY remember ), as any fully overload Photon torpedo can destroy the incomming drone even with the strongest external armour.

You just don't need the extra Fire step at R1.


You can even use T-bombs if it is not a Type X-XA' or Type X-XA".

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 09:08 pm: Edit

I can deal with that too.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:34 pm: Edit

LOL

Yes...those 16+ point SS are handy arn't they...

By Ed Grondin (Ensignedg) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Michael,

I used R1 as an example. To clarify I was thinking more along the lines of ADD's. Since the ADD sweet spot is at a greater range this would allow ADD's to still hit at their optimal range. But would also still allow for greater than 32 speed.

Another possible (albeit somewhat extreme) example would be as follows:

Romulan launches speed 48 Type-R enveloping Torp at range 2, off of Fed CX #2. The FED has fired all FH and RS phasers. But has energy avail to HET. In the present setup the Fed will take the full torp (barring other units firing on the torp). In my proposal on the next impulse the Torp would move, the Fed CX could HET, fire it's phasers (range 1) and then take the reduced torp after DF in that impulse.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Ed,

You assume speed-48 plasma will be in X2. I'm not convinced it's needed and seems to me most people around here aren't convimced either.

MJC's arguments for speed-48 plasma (AKA super-sabot) revolved first and foremost around compensating for X2 ships moving faster than 31. If we have a super-sabot, then perhaps the Fed's moving 40.

How does this change things?

By Ed Grondin (Ensignedg) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 01:46 pm: Edit

John,

Sorry didn't state in the setup that the Fed is not scheduled to move on the next impulse. Like I said it is an extreme example.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 01:33 am: Edit

Quote:

Romulan launches speed 48 Type-R enveloping Torp at range 2, off of Fed CX #2. The FED has fired all FH and RS phasers. But has energy avail to HET. In the present setup the Fed will take the full torp (barring other units firing on the torp). In my proposal on the next impulse the Torp would move, the Fed CX could HET, fire it's phasers (range 1) and then take the reduced torp after DF in that impulse.


Let me ask you this question in responce.
A Romulan get to R1 and launches an EPT-R at speed 32 of a Fed which has fired all of it's FH and RS Phasers.
On the next impulse the Fed doesn't move but could HET.
If it HETs it will get it's phaser into arc but the phaser won't be able to fire because the move seeking weapons followed by the resolve seeking weapon step occour before the direct fire weapons step.
Is the game broken because the Hetting vessel failed to get it's RS weapons to reduce the warhead strength?

All that has really happened is that with good timing and LUCK ( why isn't the Rom missing it's launcher do to Fed fire ( more than 8 impulses ago )? ) and the advanced technology of Super sabot ( something that happens from time to tinme with regular sabot ) occourred in that the term R1 was replaced with R2.

As to using the ADD.
Drone may not actually move at speed 40, it really required playtesting.
Even if they do, you still have a 50-50 shot with an ADD and a lot of ships have limited Aegis ( like X1 vessels ) so you might be able to apply phasers to speed 40 drones after seeing that you missed with the ADD round but mostly X2 ships will replace the ADD launcher with an X2E-rack.

The Fed ship with an ADD really has a responcibility to it'self ( and the rest of the fleet ) to have made one sideslip so that the Drone ( or plasma ) appeared in the R3 ( when there's an ADD ) or R1 ( when phasers are your only dependable defense.

By Ed Grondin (Ensignedg) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Michael....

I see what you are saying. No it is not currently a game problem. The Fed captain made poor choices that put him/her in a bad situation.

And of course the same could be argued in my proposal. The difference being that the bad tactics opportunities are extended by a couple of hexes.

Without actual playtesting it seems that it would be impossible to reach an air tight conclusion as to has the advantage. And is the advantage a game breaker.

Obviously seeking weapons at a speed greater than 32 will require new tactics on both the targets and controllers parts.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 10:02 pm: Edit

Quote:

The difference being that the bad tactics opportunities are extended by a couple of hexes.


Since the Advent of the Plasma Sabot rules, the Range is R2 where this can happen....any they can be installed on a GW ship as early as Y180 ( under their own playtesting situation which has nothing to do with X2, although the X1 errata employs Sabotted plasma ).
What the super sabot will do is replace the need of the Romulan Captain to time his launch to fire on an impulse that is a multiple of 4 minus 1, and rather he need only fire on any ODD numbered impulse.

Quote:

Obviously seeking weapons at a speed greater than 32 will require new tactics on both the targets and controllers parts.


Well new Tactic and new weapon systems, hence the Ph-5 being able to rapid pulse 2Ph-6 shots.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit

You assume speed-48 plasma will be in X2. I'm not convinced it's needed and seems to me most people around here aren't convimced either.


Odd, I seem to recall more votes for super sabot than against in the poll.

MJC's arguments for speed-48 plasma (AKA super-sabot) revolved first and foremost around compensating for X2 ships moving faster than 31.

A problem indeed. But with more power and more deadly weapon systems on X2 ships, my concern is that X2 ships will carry more direct-firepower at higher aggregate speeds than ever before, and thus why *I* feel that super sabot may very well be necesary.

You don't have to go faster than 31 to present a problem. Going 31 or near 31 more often than other previous generation ships and still carrying more direct-firepower IS the problem.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 10:16 pm: Edit

Well taking the refit concept just recently understood ( though I've been saying it for months ) a Fed CA attacked with a Plasma M torp could in an oblique of the torpe bring 6Ph-5s to bear and after the refit 9Ph-5s.

We'll assum R2 fire because everyone complains that R1 won't happen against a speed 48 plasma.

6R2 Ph-5s will inflict 39 points of damage and reduce the warhead by 19 points.

12R2 Rapid Pulsed Ph-6s shots will inflict 52 points of damage reducing the warhead by 26 points.

9R2 Ph-5s will inflict 58.5 points of damage reducing the warhead by 27 points.

18R2 Rapid Pulsed Ph-6 shots will inflict 78 points of damage, reducing the warhead strength by 39 points.


Now here's a question?
Will the standard plasma chucker opponent hurl plasma from his 2 Type M launchers, 2 Type M and 2 Type L or 2 Type M and 2 Type S?


If one could get to R1 and we allow 3Ph-3 shots to be rapid pulsed from our capital phasers ( and I think we should ) then we get:-

With the early phaser array.
18 R1 Ph-3 shots inflicting 66 points of damage, reducing the warhead by 33 points.

And with the late phaser array.
27 R1 Ph-3 shots inflicting 99 points of damage reducing the warhead strength by 49 points...great against a plasma R...eh!?!


Still with the number of Plasma being hurled around if you fight your BPV in GW ships and even with the number of Plasma being hurled around by your BPV in opposing Plasma X2 ships, your X2 vessel will not be able to reduce ALL the plasma thrown at it.

Apart from the high speed of X2 ships there is also the need to look at the capasities of the X2 ships.
Since they can fire their real damage at longer ranges and do very good damage at closer ranges, you need something that offsets the mix of those abilities.
To some extent the fastloading in X1 covered the close range damage aspect so we just need to deal with both the lack of a need to close on the plasma chucker (longer ranges ) and the higher speed of the ship itself.
I think a longer glory zone coupled with higher speed with yeild damage to the X2 targets without greatly increasing the damage that would be done to slower GW ( and even bases ) target.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 02:35 pm: Edit

New rule proposal: "Chambering" a drone.

Concept: a drone rack feeds a drone to the launcher which holds it ready. This allows the rack to go out of service a little sooner and reload.

A drone rack with a drone chanbered in the launcher is subject to chain reactions same as the old F-racks were.

A drone may not be chambered until 8 impulses after a previous launch (12 impulses for C-racks)

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