Archive through March 11, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
Orion Tactics:
Archive through March 11, 2019
I agree with Mike on this one. Is there any reason why this mission couldn't be performed by sending the BPs via shuttlecraft?
Quote: Is there any reason why this mission couldn't be performed by sending the BPs via shuttlecraft?
I believe the point was to have a vehicle (PF), large enough to avoid being destroyed, if the freighter was a Q-Ship and fired upon it.
That would get the tactical data (Q Ship or not), without having to lower a shield on the Pirate Ship.
Mark,
Yeah, I understand that part. But if a Q-ship unloads its weapons on a PF that has dropped its shields to use its transporter, the PF will take severe damage anyway. And repairing it may actually be more expensive than replacing a destroyed shuttle, depending on the specific systems hit.
If I'm an Orion with mech links, carrying a PF or two, I want them to be "shooters" which can help me survive if I find myself in combat with an actual warship. Granted, I don't plan to get into combat with actual warships. But for some reason the universe has never seen the wisdom of arranging its affairs in accordance with my intentions.
Shuttles are a good idea and I'm glad you brought them up, but there is a reason why I WOULDN'T want to use them. Sure, they're an easy way to send a boarding team over someplace cooperative. On the other hand, a freighter facing a pirate is NOT going to be so amenable.
What's more, even if the target ISN'T a Q-ship, as a large freighter, it still has its 360 degree Ph-2, which will KILL a standard ADMIN that comes too close, or at the very least, cripple it. Large freighters also have their tractor beams and, while they might be inclined to use them to try and resist the pirate ships attempts to keep them held, lack of power makes that a non-starter, but using them to hold a shuttle attempting to land aboard is still a viable use.
(I think. I really don't know the tractor rules that well...)
Also, there's the time pressure to do the job; a freighter under attack by pirates has already called for the nearest Police or Fleet unit, so is there the time to launch the shuttle and have it do a forced landing on the freighter?
IMO, this time pressure is one of the main weapons of the Q-ships*, and it's dealing with them that I'm trying to figure out some tactics.
(*"Captain, we don't have time; let's just drop their facing shield, lower our shield, and beam over the boarding team." Pirate lowers shield, and Q-ship unloads on the downed shield. Textbook; I've fallen for it before.)
If the freighter does not slow and allow the shuttle to board I would just blast the freighter. If it fires its phaser at the shuttle same thing.
Jeffrey,
But if the freighter isn't a Q-ship, just an ordinary freighter, blasting the shuttle is suicidal.
I believe there's a sort of unspoken agreement that if a freighter peaceably turns over its cargo, the pirate ship spares the crews' lives (and probably leaves them the ship, since taking the ship increases the chances of their being caught by responding police or naval forces). But if the freighter crew resists, the pirate destroys them.
If a freighter crew knows that the pirates murder the crews of freighters they capture, the freighter crew will resist to the last man (or ... whatever) and may self-destruct the ship, because they will die anyway. The pirates get nothing. And a pirate who wantonly kills freighter crews is likely to either be hunted down by the police or have a "conversation" with the cartel enforcer ship, since such actions may bring unacceptable levels of police/naval attention to the whole cartel. So it is in the interest of the pirates to let it be known that freighter crews who cooperate will be spared.
That at least is my understanding of the fundamental dynamic of piracy in the SFU - allowing for occasional unusual circumstances in which it doesn't apply.
Jeffrey George Anderson:
While Skiffs have the range to go from one system to another, they lack the range to patrol in empty space waiting for a victim to turn up and are not really designed for fuel transfers in deep space between them and another ship (it can be done, but the operation is not as simple as fueling a casual fast patrol ship docked to a mech-link). You also lack any ability to repair it if damaged, or to carry it off to safety (which you can do with a PF by having it dock to your ship before you run). You would find yourself watching far too many merchants moving off while waiting for your red-headed step child (as the rest of your crew would begin thinking of it) to either be refueled or to catch up.
I imagine most pirates would let the crew live but also some cases where fighting for time might be the best option. If I am a Lyran freighter captain and a pirate ship captained by a Kzinti shows up I would be tempted to go down fighting hoping help is nearby rather then being dinner rations that night on the pirate ship.
SPP, very much as I would have guessed. While I LOVE skiffs and think they're great, like all things well made from a literary point of view, they have their strengths AND their weaknesses.
Alan, what you say makes a great deal of sense. Unfortunately, I think it might make for a pretty boring scenario; Pirate shows up, demands a freighter heave-to and prepare to be boarded, freighter complies.
As to freighters trying to run, fight, or what-not, and as "Punishment," and the pirate doing a #6 on them*, making an "Example" of them, again, it makes sense. Pirates are going to be dealt with harshly by Naval and Police forces, but the crews of freighters can be made to cower by the "Carrot and Stick" motivational exercises.
(*The #6 reference was from "Blazin' Saddles." "That's where we go a ridin' and a whoopin' every last thing that moves within an inch of its life!!" What can I say; I love the classics...)
The few times I've flown Orions, I've always insisted on using the oxymoronic "Non-violent Combat" rules against the freighters on the grounds that they don't want to damage the goods they're trying to steal. I've never thought in terms of sending a message to other freighters to NOT resist.
Maybe I'm just to honest for piracy...
(... or the legal profession...)
(... or selling used cars...)
(... or politics...)
I think that generally, an Orion pirate ship would not be crewed by any particular species (except perhaps Orions), so that Lyran/Kzinti situation is probably not very likely.
Jeffrey George Anderson:
In simple terms, because a typical Orion (or even raider) scenario would be anticlimactic, the published ones should be seen as those where something went wrong or something unusual happened.
That is to say the last 20 or so times you said "stand and deliever," your victim meekly stopped and allowed you access to take what you wanted (and helped with the transfer). There is nothing interesting to play.
That 21st time, however, the freighter captain knew about that old derelict nuclear space mine he led your ship over, and that that patrolling cruiser was nearby, and did that suddenly make your situation interesting as you now have to figure out how to escape this mess.
I would think that many crews would be dominated by the local species, particularly the officers. Especially the independents. A captain or an interest behind him or her purchases an Orion ship. During the purchase they also negotiate a franchise rental. The captain selects his own officers from those he knows or those who invested and perhaps some of his crew and hires the rest through the local cartel.
I could see a wide range of independent types.
- A captain who worked his way up through the ranks on an independent ship and takes over when his previous captain retires. He just wants to make a profit and retire.
- You have a Cromarg crew who pays their crew a relative pittance as the bulk of the loot goes covertly back to the Cromarg homeworld to try to make living there more tolerable.
- A displaced Lyran Count and his entourage. They spent the bulk of the riches they absconded with buying a pirate ship and are using it to finance a coup to get their home county back.
- A group of ex-Gorn military who are convinced the Romulans are a greater threat then their government believes. They raid Romulan trade routes but also secretly pass on intel about the Romulans to friends in the Gorn hierarchy.
- A group of Federation citizens whose homeworld was conquered by the Klingons during the early stages of the General War. They are cruel to Klingon crews.
- A mixed crew running a Slaver that is uncomfortable with piracy (but will do it as needed) and are more interested in smuggling (and sometimes escorting) high-value goods across a neutral zone.
- A cruel Slirdarian slavelord that is known for supplying primarily living stock. He takes the crew of almost every freighter he raids and also targets out of the way colonies for subdual. Dark rumors suggest he sells some of them to the Kzinti and Lyrans as delicacies.
- A Romulan crew sponsored covertly by one of the Great Houses. They conduct piracy but primarily prey on the enemies of their house and pass intel back and forth.
- My violent Kzinti crew that is always looking for a meal on top of their booty.
I suspect the cartel lords turn a blind eye to these kinds of sponsorships and setups as long as the crews play by the rules, pay the Lord his/her cut, and do not stir things up too much and make things difficult for the cartel as a whole.
Jon,
I could see some crews consisting primarily of local species, but I'm less convinced that you would see crews or captains whose primary loyalty was to something other than the local cartel lord (your Cromarg, Lyran, Gorn, or - arguably - Romulan* examples). Ultimately, even if they could obtain a ship, they wouldn't be able to operate without the logistic support of the local cartel. And the lord of that cartel is going to be very leery of allowing any ship whose loyalty he is... unsure of... to operate in his (or her, or its) area. How does the lord know those Gorn "pirates" aren't really agents of the Gorn police or navy, trying to infiltrate his cartel so they can gather information to destroy it? How does the lord know the Lyran Count and his entourage won't try to overthrow the cartel lord and take over the cartel, if the chances of staging a coup start to look hopeless? Cartel lords have "enforcer" ships precisely to keep their subordinates in line. But they still aren't going to want a lot captains/crews whose backgrounds they don't know really well operating in their space.
*The Romulan example might be an exception to the above because, effectively, they are agents of their House pretending to be pirates. They may be getting both logistic support and protection (secretly) from the House rather than the cartel. The cartel lord may not like it, but actively doing something about it may be too risky if those Romulan "pirates" are really under the protection of the House's military assets.
Oh, I am not denying that the cartel lord would be watchful. If I was a cartel lord I would have a designated representative as an observer on every ship that got a franchise and a few unofficial ones as well. The problem is independents are not tied strictly to the cartel. If the cartel lord is too oppressive they can wander off to join another cartel and you lose the income.
The pirates with other motives would be wise to stay within the boundaries of the cartel's rules or yeah, the enforcer is going to deal with them. Having some non-threatening extracurricular activity would be tolerated.
As to the threat of supplanting the cartel lord well yeah, that is always a thing but it also applies to every ship even those who are in it for pure profit.
The main reason I see these kinds of pirate ships cropping up is that buying an independent pirate ship is a huge investment. Not many groups and even fewer individuals can just decide to buy an LR and even fewer a CR, MR, or BR. I could see the cartel lord being willing to sell to groups like I mentioned simply because they actually have the cash to but the ship. Unless a pirate is ultra-successful it is unlikely even a group of veteran pirates can buy a ship up front. The shipyard could extend credit and the pirate ship pays off the loan over time but that is a risky investment. If the ship is destroyed the investment is lost.
Just a thought and obviously I am not the final arbiter. If SVC or SPP say I am off base then I retract my idea.
This is making me think of Machiavellian Machinations and Manipulations; things unnatural enough to me to make my head hurt...
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WOULD Cartel Bosses sell ships to people they didn't trust to NOT be plants from one Intelligence organization or another? I think they might. Here's an example of why...
The Bosses of the Cluster Cartel MIGHT sell a small ship to someone who comes across as a GIA agent and then casually encourage Pharaoh to lease space in Klingon territory to them for their operations, but withOUT telling Pharaoh that they might be GIA. This way, if they ARE part of the Galactic Intelligence Agency, they wouldn't be able to report much (if anything) on the pirates operating in Federation territory, could only do harm to a rival Cartel, and would likely be tasked with more anti-Klingon missions anyway, due to their "Real" bosses.
Further, if Pharaoh were to find out that these freelancers WERE operating against them, they still have their Enforcer ship(s) to handle them, so again, the Cluster Cartel remains unhurt by the actions of these GIA operators.
This is, however, nothing more than a WAG on my part, so it's probably about as wrong as wrong can be.
The most common single species ships that are not crewed by Orions would be Hydran, simply because of environmental concerns. After that I suspect that both the Lyrans, and the Kzintis would be fairly common, due to being on the wrong side of a political dispute. After that, the ubiquitous, adventurous, humans.
While Tholians, Rovillians, and Phelen seem like likely species for single ship status, I doubt that were enough of these guys to take to a pirate life for more than a ship or two.
ADM:
I do not see the Tholians joining pirate crews very often if at all
Same with Hydrans. The pirate ship classes are designed for conventional humanoids. Would it be worth the cost to plan and do a large scale conversion of the entire ship to make it work in a methane atmosphere for maybe one or two ships? Same with the other exotic environments.
JGA:
I doubt they would take someone who they were sure was an intelligence plant. I think it more likely they would sell ships to groups with an agenda and those agendas need not even be that secret. Sure, in the case of the Gorn crew I mentioned no one would talk about it openly but the Cartel Lord would probably know. You just make sure they do not work in a cartel that raids Gorn space and let them go. Sure, they could get intel on some Romulan space Orion bases but they have no incentive to give that intel to the Romulans or even the Gorn (for fear of it leaking to the Romulans somehow or being outed as traitors to the Cartel Lord). They want the pirates in Romulan space to be successful in any case. No real conflict of interest.
Same with a lot of the others. The Lyran Count wants to become wealthy and put his family back in power. The pirate might try to capture some military ships on the way but if the Count succeeds it is no skin off the Cartel Lord's nose. They may even get a powerful ally.
Of course there will be double crosses and coups and the like but that is the life of a pirate Lord. It is hard to get people devoted to a strict code of honor when your entire enterprise is based on deception and theft.
- A displaced Lyran Count and his entourage. They spent the bulk of the riches they absconded with buying a pirate ship and are using it to finance a coup to get their home county back.
Is that what they'll do when I wire back the money they're going to deposit in my bank account? I've half a mind to tell them the deal is off.
We have done articles about how the Cartels operate, and pointed out that one of their main functions (in addition to supply, repair, fencing, etc.) is Vetting replacement crew.
No one gets to join the inner ranks of a cartel without a background check.
The majority of a pirate crew will not know where the ship came from (in terms of an actual spatial location) or where it is going. (Not that much different than the typical crewman on any other ship, i.e., they know they just left Base #3, but an Orion crewman will not have any idea where Base #3 is located).
No one becomes an officer on an Orion ship with access to the ship's navigation systems without having been carefully backgrounded to make sure he, she, it, or whatever is not a government agent. If there is even a whiff that such an individual is a government plant, the individual might be interrogated first, but otherwise that individual's future is measured in pico-seconds.
All crew (especially recent recruits) are checked to make sure they have not brought a tracking device aboard the ship (see life measured in pico-seconds above).
Since you have to get supplies from the Cartel, the Cartel's accountants are going to be checking your books very carefully, and sloppy bookkeeping, even if you are an independent, can see the Cartel Lord confiscating your ship (and see "pico seconds" above for your future).
Always remember that any "crew replacements" that join your ship are vetted by the Cartel, including any new officers, and, yes, there are agents of the Cartel among your crew.
And, no, you do not get to crew your ship only with people you trust. Even if you are an independent, because as an independent captain you will learn where the Cartel's assets are (when you refuel and resupply, and get repairs), and the Cartel is not going to risk a crew being unmonitored and providing someone (not just the local empire, but possibly a neighboring cartel looking to "muscle in") with such data.
The Cartels are ruthless, and the people who are Cartel Lords tend to be the most ruthless of all, even if they often like to put a friendly face on and pretend they are "just one of the guys."
Quote:yes, there are agents of the Cartel among your crew.
I imagine the Cartels have the largest Cooking schools in the Universe.
SPP,
I'd appreciate your comments.
I would have thought that there were a lot of "orion style" hulls out there that aren't working as pirates.
Else everyone would kill those things on sight
So LRs are commonly used as substitutes for Armed Priority Transports. Without the suicide bomb, warp doubling hardware, and cartel navigation databases installed of course. Maybe with the Phaser 1s reduced to P2.
CRs are sold to anyone that asks for use as something else (high speed liners?)
Etc.
Basically my argument is that the Orion pirates HAVE to have some way to keep their ships from being shot at every time they are spotted, AND to habituate the locals that they shouldn't scream PIRATES whenever they get to the appropriate S level tacintel to identify the hull type...
While an interesting idea, Mike, I can say that I surely wouldn't want to buy one; not when I could buy a FT or the APT you mentioned, probably for less of an initial investment, with the added bonus that nobody's going to be suspicious of my ship if we just happen to pass in the endless night of space.
However, Module R11 (IIRC) has the workboats, and the color blurb for the Orion Workboat says that, unlike their Buccaneers, the Orion Workboats have no ECM bonus, suicide bomb, or engine doubling and are often found in civilian hands.
Just like what you're proposing.
Another thing I remember (go ahead and laugh; I am) is in one short story in an issue of Captain's Log, where the lead character does an expose' in his mind about how Orion ships, due to their design, are difficult to detect at strategic ranges. IIRC, the short story is the one SVC wrote about an ambitious, aggressive, professional Klingon officer who took command of a gunboat flotilla based at a Kzinti border BATS (an excellent piece of fiction, in my opinion).
Michael Grafton:
At that point, with those questions, you are going into grand universal queries which is SVC's area, not mine.
I am afraid that in my opinion Orion pirate ships avoid being shot at by not being seen, except when they are actually robbing something.
There use in the "civilian economy" such as light raiders acting a armed priority transports does not work simply because they are so much more expensive to build for such a role (that "stealth design" costs, and is worth it for piracy, but not as a simple transport), especially considering what they can move (the cargo bay of an LR holds 50% of the volume of a Federation Express, and both carry less than an APT). A CR is a CRUISER, but carries less than half the volume of an APT in its cargo bay.
If the Orions need to move cargo for "trade," they have their own freighters and Free Traders for the purpose. The "pirate ships" basically operate from the hidden bases, and avoid contact.
But if SVC says they are bought from the Orion shipyards for "normal business" by civilian corporations, then that is the way it is.
So you don't install the expensive stealth features either. Or have as much crew.
And the space freed up (downgrade those P1s to P3s?) lets the cargo holds be full sized boxes?
Maybe the "Pirate" ones have an optional thing that lets them turn off the stealth features? Like a "blip enhancer?"
Could SVC weigh in?
It's an interesting thought experiment.
IIRC, the Orion Police uses these (without the bomb or doubling) as POLs.
SPP:
While I appreciate the ruthlessness of your conception of the cartel lords I have my doubts anyone would ever want to buy or run an independent ship under that conception of the cartels. To be honest it sounds like they get all the restrictions of being a cartel ship with no upside in their independence.
I could see the Cartel Lord being very harsh about anything that would threaten the Cartel's secrecy (a lot of what you mention) and both the independent captain and the Cartel Lord both know there are agents (open and covert) on his or her ship. If the Cartel Lord has that heavy of a hand dictating to the independents who, in theory, own their own ships and are definitely fiercely independent types like most pirates throughout history then how does the Cartel Lord evade endless coups?
If I was a Cartel Lord I would be very strict about keeping the location of cartel assets down to few on the ship and vetting those people very thoroughly to make sure they have no motive to reveal it. Then put out the word that the Xenocide Cartel gives independents a longer leash then everyone else and wait for the independents in the other cartels to start flowing in. Eventually I will have the strength to take on the other cartels where the Cartel Lords squeeze the independents more tightly.