Archive through April 24, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
Other Proposals:
U10 SFB Challenge Campaign:
Archive through April 24, 2003
Well at the urging of Paul Franz and with the blessing of Steve Cole I unveil this little baby of mine for comments and possible playtesting;
U10 SFB Challenge Campaign
By Geoff Conn
This open ended abstract campaign simulates a number of combat encounters that would occur between hostile major races during a galactic war. For simplicity of play there is no map, no technology research, and no exploration and discovery. The focus is purely on playing bpv scenarios with a future and past, with forces formed from an already active fleet.
U10.1 Fleet Formation
U10.11 Each player selects a race from the following list;
Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Gorn, ISC, Kzinti, Lyran, or Hydran
Alternatively, select a race from any list agreeable to the group.
U10.12 Each player then forms a fleet with a maximum of 1,750 bpv of units from that race, including the cost of any refits, fighters, pfs and drone speed surcharges. Purchase of these units may be limited by various restrictions decided before the start of the campaign, as suggested;
- Year 175 (alternative starting years; 100, 143, 150, 162, 168, 178,180)
- Capitol ship limit 1/1 (max 1 size class 2 and/or 1 true carrier group/PF tender)
- Limited construction ship limit 1
- Conjectural ship limit 0
- Other hull limits? (ex: no fighters/pfs, NCA/HDWs, Scouts, etc.)
- Pre-construction limit? (see U10.91)
U10.13 Each player also adds to this fleet 1 SB, 3 BS/BATS, and 1 FRD.
U10.14 Each player has a generic pool of 600 bpv to draw on for non-warship expenses (freighters, ground bases, base pods/modules, minefields, police/Q ships, auxiliaries etc.) which is not designated as to hull/base types at this time but rather recorded only when necessary.
U10.2 Campaign Round Sequence
- Challenge
- Scenario Setup
- Resolve Scenario
- Record Keeping
- Economics (every fourth round)
U10.3 Challenge
U10.31 Each round, a player may challenge another to a game. A round is any time frame agreed upon before the campaign starts, which could be once every time the group meets, once a week, once a month, or simply a maximum number of challenges in a set time period. Within the campaign, 1 round equals 1 month.
U10.32 The challenger picks a scenario from the list in U10.4. If the challengee accepts, proceed to Scenario Setup. If he refuses, the challengee loses 50 victory points. The challengee may avoid this VP loss by issuing a counter challenge to the challenger, picking a scenario more suitable to him. If this challenge is accepted, proceed to play the scenario. If it is refused, neither loses VPs. The challenger is always assumed to be the attacker in the scenario.
U10.33 Alternatively, a die roll or mutual agreement may also be used to select the scenario, providing both players agree to this method.
U10.4 Scenario Setup
| Roll | Scenario | Attacker BPV | Defender BPV | Maps |
| 1 | Duel | 65+6D6
120+12D6 | Same | 1 |
| 2 | Squadron Skirmish | 300+D6x10
500+D6x10 | Same | 2x2 |
| 3 | Fleet Action | 750+2D6x10
1000+2D6x10 | Same | 3x3 |
| 4* | Base Assault | 400+D6x10 | BS/BATS+280/200+D6x10 | 3x3 |
| Deep Assault | 600+2D6x10 | FRD+550+2D6x10 |
| Capitol Assault | 1250+3D6x10 | SB+650+3D6x10 |
| 5 | Colony Raid | 200+D6x10
400+D6x10 | **Same but half must be
non-warships | 2x2 |
| 6 | Convoy Raid | 150+12D6
300+D6x10 | **Same but half must be
non-warships | 2x2 |
Note that multiple bpv ranges are given for most scenarios, choose the higher or lower range as desired, but all players must play with the same range, although the total may differ.
*Exception: you may not choose to play a Deep Assault unless the opposing player has lost 1 or more BATS. Likewise, he must have lost 2 or more BATS to be subject to a Capitol Assault, but a successful Capitol Assault will knock that player out of the campaign and add his remaining bases and non-warships pool to yours.
**A defender involved in a Colony/Convoy Raid must spend half his bpv from his non-warships pool on freighters, ground bases, and the like. These units are now kept as is and return to the pool for further use in future scenarios if not lost in combat, and follow the same repair rules during Record Keeping.
U10.41 Once the scenario is determined, each player rolls a total # of bpv that he can bring to the scenario according to the range given for the scenario. Where 2 ranges are given, the players must agree on what range they are playing with before rolling.
U10.42 Once the bpv total is determined, your units for that scenario must be selected from your active fleet (and/or non-warships pool where necessary), equal to or less then the total bpv for the scenario. Any bpv leftover can be used to purchase captains options (S3.2), and in fact this is the only way to get captains options. This does not cost the player other than adding to the bpv he brings to the scenario (to a maximum of 20% of each ships bpv as usual).
U10.43 Use S8 Patrol Restrictions when forming your force based on the bpv for the scenario, drawing units from your fleet constructed above, although once a carrier group is broken up due to losses, you need not fill it out if the corresponding replacement units are not available.
U10.5 Resolve Scenario
U10.51 The map(s) are fixed. Any unit that leaves the map has disengaged.
U10.52 Terrain will be rolled or chosen as desired. If all players cannot agree to roll or choose a selection, the terrain will be open space only (although a planet will be necessary if playing Colony Raid and Deep/Capitol Assault scenarios).
U10.53 Weapons Status should be rolled, assume that both sides always have the at war +1 modifier. Alternatively, all players may agree on a certain WS level.
U10.54 In all scenarios, opposing forces should start at least 30 hexes apart, more at the option of the attacker in a Raid or Assault. If using more than one map both players choose a map to start in, rolling for preference if necessary. A Raid defender must start in the middle junction of all 4 maps, an Assault defender setups in the middle of the centre map in a 3x3 map configuration.
U10.55 In Assault scenarios, a Tug not in combat or other use may launch 2 small or 1 large suicide freighter(s) from off map. These units come from your non-warship pool and do not return to that pool. An LTT may launch 1 small suicide freighter in the same mode.
U10.56 Use Standard Victory Conditions (S2). The winning player receives an amount of bpv equal to the difference in his score and the other players score, if this difference is positive. This is also the number of victory points he receives towards winning the campaign (U10.9) In Colony Raids and Deep/Capitol Assaults, double the bpv gain if the planet is captured. In Convoy Raids, double the bpv of the non-warships when calculating victory conditions.
U10.6 Record Keeping
U10.61 After a scenario is played out, calculate tactical repairs for ships as per G17.132, additional repairs can be completed as below. Bases may repair themselves up to full capacity, but incur a 25% bpv penalty if crippled.
U10.62 Operational repairs (D9.4) may be conducted by removing the unit from active duty for 2 rounds. The unit will not be available for any scenarios during this time. However, if the owning player must defend during a Base Assault, this unit will be in the scenario, docked to the base but repaired. If this occurs in the first round of repairs the unit will be docked and inactive (D18) with no repairs completed.
U10.63 Strategic repairs (U1.4) will be necessary for Crippled (S2.4) units and those that cannot be completely repaired by Operational repairs as above must be overhauled at your FRD or Starbase. There is a bpv surcharge of 25% of the base hull to overhaul a ship, but no limit to how many times a ship can be overhauled. Overhauled units are unavailable for a number of rounds equal to their size class 10, treating the result as a positive number. Add 2 to this result if the FRD is unavailable, representing extra travel time to the home Starbase.
Ex: A size class 3 unit overhauled at the SB will be out of action 3-8 = -5(5+2)= 7 rounds
If the FRD or SB is attacked during any but the last 2 rounds of repair the unit will be docked, inactive, and unrepaired at the start of the scenario. In the last 2 rounds it will be merely docked and repaired.
U10.64 Spare fighters may be unpacked. Carriers/PF tenders must withdraw for one round to replenish any further fighters/pf losses at bpv cost to the owner (exception: FCR/Tug/LTT that has not been used in combat this round could be assigned to replenishment duty with a carrier/tender, allowing full supply (at cost) without withdrawing the unit from active duty).
U10.65 Drones, non-fighter/SWAC shuttles, pseudos, and other expendables are replaced free of charge.
U10.7 Economics
U10.71 Every 4 rounds (one third of a year) each player adds 100 bpv to his bpv total and may purchase new hulls to add to his active Fleet and/or add bpv to his non-warships pool at this time. Conversions to other hull types use the same rules as cripples above, calculate the 25% fee based on the new hull type. Unused bpv may be saved for later use.
U10.72 The tech year for unit availability advances 1 year every 12 rounds.
U10.8 Ending the Campaign
U10.81 If one players victory point total equals 1,500, or is more than the sum of the 3 smallest victory point totals for any 3 players in the campaign, that player wins.
U10.82 For a short game, end the Campaign when a Capitol falls. For a longer game, end it when all players but one have lost their Capitol. Such calculations could be made by alliance if using U10.92
U10.9 Optional Rules
U10.91 Pre-Construction Limit: To represent older hulls still in service and the rarity of new construction hulls, restrict the U10.1 Fleet Formation purchase to the following formula;
50% of units must be 20 Years or more older than the campaign start Year
30% of units must be 8 Years or more older than the campaign start Year
20% of units are only limited by the campaign start Year
Note that some base hulls may be purchased under one ratio and then refitted under another ratio.
U10.92 Temporary Allies: If desired, joint challenges can be made to joint players, resulting in a multiplayer battle with two sides. Each player calculates his force for the scenario separately as per the scenario table. Calculate victory conditions and bpv loss/gain per side and divide by the number of players on that side.
U10.93 Permanent Allies: A permanent alliance enables players to take advantage of (U10.92) indefinitely, while also allowing a joint win under (U10.82). Such alliances are formal, public and must be made at start of game. This rule is also useful in simulating historical campaigns.
U10.94 Minor Allies: Players may be allowed to select a secondary race as a subject race in their empire, to control and add to their major race. Thus up to 25% of your starting fleet (but not bases) and any subsequent replacements may be from this race, until a Deep Assault is successfully made on their homeworld (instead of the FRD). (Ex: Tholian, LDR, WYN, Orion, Vudar, simulator, Omega, and Magellanic races) An interesting option might be to have the Empire race subjugate these subject races first; give control of that race to an elected player, and have the Empire race fight their way to the capitol via a colony assault, fleet action, and then finally a successful capitol assault before claiming the race as a subject race.
I'm especially looking for feedback on whether 1,750+600 bpv is good for starting forces and if 100bpv+spoils of war is good for replacements/repairs.
Very cool, some questions/random thoughts though...
Disengagement directions, presumably each side would have allowed directions to disengage, are these different depending on scenario? If you are in deep space (duel or squadron or fleet battle) each side has two or three allowed directions. If you are in enemy territory (colony, BATS, capital) then you only have one or two directions, but he defender would have 4 or 5 allowed directions?
If you capture a ship, do you get the points for capturing (i.e. 200% of the BPV for campaign victory and BPV to build new ships), or do you just get the ship and campaign points and no BPV for construction? To show an extreme example, if you were to capture the Klingon B10, would you get the ship, 768 campaign victory points, AND 768 BPV added to your pool to build new ships, or should you just get the ship and campaign points and no BPV construction points (since you got the ship instead)?
If you capture a ship, do you just repair it and use it as is, or have an optional rule requiring conversion to native tech using, say, the brother of anarchist articles?
Is it ever possible to force a capital assault? If you have destroyed two BATS, then you can challenge the player to a capital assault, but he can simply counter challenge a duel for no penalty. Perhaps if ALL of your BATS are destroyed, then he cannot refuse a capital assault? Also, how could you force a BATS assault, since he can always counterchallenge a fleet battle or duel? Perhaps every second, or every third BATS challenge (or some other number) from a given player MUST be accepted, instead of being essentially an option?
Perhaps every third challenge (from a given player) of each type must be accepted, to keep people from avoiding certain scenarios indefinitely. Once one type is accepted, voluntarily or because it was the third challenge, then the count starts over again?
Might be neat to say if you have no tug you cannot buy or place more ground bases/FRDs/tugpods/etc. with your non-warship BPV pool (but you can of course continue to use ones already built).
Did you consider any rules on fleet makeup regards required numbers/percentages of different size classes? (To avoid the all D5 fleet)?
This looks like a lot of fun to me though!
Geoff Conn: This is just the sort of thing I've been looking for. I was working on a more complicated F&E'ist type solution but yours is better and you saved my a lot of work!
One thing about capitol assaults. Since the player fleet is not the players race's total fleet but more a sector fleet, I would suggest some sort of reserve pool to defend against a Capitol Assault.
This vague but: It a defending player does not have enough ships in his pool to reach the allowed BPV total for a Capitol Assault scenario he/she can put reserves from a pool of 650 BPV to fill out the total. No more than 650 BPV is available from this reserve pool and thus it is possible the defending player may still be short on Forces. In order to use the Reserve Pool the defending player must use all ships available to him/her including non-combat ships, first.
Example: I have been taking a real beating and am under a Capitol Assault. I get a SB + 650 BPV and I roll a 3, 5, and 4 to get 1200 more BPV. That's 1850 BPV but I only have 740 BPV of fleet left! There is another 110 BPV of freighters available and I wish to draw upon my reserves so I take those for a total 850 BPV. I draw all my reserves for a total of 850+650= 1500 BPV. Still 350 BPV short of what I was otherwise allowed. Alternatively, I could have rolled badly (1+3+3=700) and got only 1350 BPV available so I could only draw 500 BPV from my reserve Pool.
Does that make sense? Without such a reserve I think by the time a Capitol Assalt happens the Capitols might fall unrealistically easy.
Nick, some very good points, thanks!
Disengagement directions,
I hadn't considered this as there is no strategic map, but to represent such limitations ;
U10.51 The map(s) are fixed. Any unit that leaves the map has disengaged. Any unit that disengages in a direction that is not the original or adjacent to the original direction that their side started play in is destroyed.
No special differentiation for defenders for simplicity.
If you capture a ship, do you get the points for capturing (i.e. 200% of the BPV for campaign victory and BPV to build new ships), or do you just get the ship and campaign points and no BPV for construction? To show an extreme example,
Also a good point. Keep in mind that you are subtracting your opponents vp score from your own before converting to bpv. Is that adequate? Or should we not double the ship's bpv for bpv gain as you are gaining a ship? (I'm leaning in that direction right now)
If you capture a ship, do you just repair it and use it as is, or have an optional rule requiring conversion to native tech using, say, the brother of anarchist articles?
U10.66 Captured ships can be repaired and put into active duty in your fleet. All alien technology systems must be converted to parallel systems as per the anarchist series of Captains Log articles. Optionally, any systems not destroyed in action that are alien technology to yours can be kept as is on the ship and subsequently repaired later due to examination of destroyed and/or working systems. You cannot build new alien tech nor can you move this system to another ship.
Is it ever possible to force a base/capital assault?
The rules were written so that essentially both players would be agreeing to a patrol scenario with established setup and consequences. Forcing scenarios is more of a campaign concern and overides this 'wachya wanna play?' style. But it is a very valid point and I think it can be solved like so;
U10.33 If the initial challenge is an Assault scenario, the challengee can only respond with a Skirmish or Fleet Action scenario. Essentially, the challengee is meeting the attacker in open space in response. If the challenger wins this scenario, then he may freely select the same original Assault scenario in the next round and the challengee must accept (assuming it is the same players involved again).
Might be neat to say if you have no tug you cannot buy or place more ground bases/FRDs/tugpods/etc. with your non-warship BPV pool (but you can of course continue to use ones already built).
I have tried to think of several non-combat missions for the Tug to do (suicide frieghter launches and carrier/tender resupply for instance) but I do not see the Tug being involved in groundbase/FRD construction. I'm pretty happy with the Tug as is.
Did you consider any rules on fleet makeup regards required numbers/percentages of different size classes? (To avoid the all D5 fleet)?
Yes, but that would be an optional rule at best.
U10.92 Fleet Limitations: to limit all CW fleets and to encourage multiple size class usage, require a certain portion of all fleets to have size class four vessels. For example; half, minus one, of all fleets must be composed of size class 4 units. Do not include the command ship in this calculation, drop all fractions. This would allow for 3 ship cruiser squadrons while forcing players to field at least 4 destroyers/frigates in a 12 ship fleet.
This looks like a lot of fun to me though!
Thanks, get a group together and try it out! 
Loren,
Geoff Conn: This is just the sort of thing I've been looking for. I was working on a more complicated F&E'ist type solution but yours is better and you saved my a lot of work!
Glad I could help.
One thing about capitol assaults. Since the player fleet is not the players race's total fleet but more a sector fleet, I would suggest some sort of reserve pool to defend against a Capitol Assault.
Interesting, but first a point of clarification;
Example: I have been taking a real beating and am under a Capitol Assault. I get a SB + 650 BPV and I roll a 3, 5, and 4 to get 1200 more BPV.
That 3d6 roll of 3,5,4 is 120 more bpv, not 1200.
At any rate, here's a counter-proposal to consider;
U10.44 If a player does not have enough units in his active warship fleet to form a scenario force (ie: he has more than 100 bpv left over after assigning all available units to the scenario force) AND he is the defender in an assault scenario, he may use units from his non-warships pool to fill out his warship force. If he still has more than 100 bpv left over and he is the defender in a capitol assault, fill out the force with naval auxillaries, Qships, and/or armed frieghters that the player need not pay for. These represent hasty acquisitions and conversions and return to private ownershipEonce the battle is over. These units cannot form more than one third of the fleet no matter how short the player may be on bpv.
Another note. If you enforce the percentages on old ships, 20 years old, 8 years old, (an idea I like), then it really stinks for the Romulans, if you assume Y170, then 50% of the fleet must be ships from Y150 or earlier, for most races this is not a problem, but for the Roms this leaves only ships without phasers and warp drive for half of the fleet. Not much fun.
As an optional "tweak", assume that for Roms 20% is anything goes (up to Y170), 30% 8 years restriction (up to Y162) which gives them some klingon designs and refitted older ships, and the other 50% must be, instead of 20 years old, restricted to the old style ships prior to Y162 (the 8 year limit). This makes things bearable. For example, I put together the following fleet with this tweak for Y170 base year. I also assume a limit of at least 50% of the initial BPV must be spent on size 4 or smaller ships, the other half can be spent on size 3 and the one size 2 ship.
170 1 King Vulture
130 1 SparrowHawk-C Scout
300 spent on anything
115 1 KR Cruiser
128 1 KRT Tug
156 2 K5R Frigates
399 spent on anything at least 8 yrs old
300 3 War Eagle Cruisers
425 5 BattleHawk Destroyers
325 5 Snipe-A Frigates
1050 spent on old series at least 8 yrs old
Total BPV=1749 points.
That would be a fun starting fleet.
Another question, if a player has, or accepts, multiple challenges on the same round, I assume these are essentially simultaneous such that a given ship cannot fight in two challenges in the same round?
That 3d6 roll of 3,5,4 is 120 more bpv, not 1200.
Duh oh!
Your counter proposal is great.
Geeze, all that useless typing based on an extra zero. 
It's tough to set ONE guideline for the roms because there are so many possible Year dates the campaign could be set in to represent multiple eras of combat. Pre Y162 the Roms just aren't going to be a player.
Did you keep in mind that ships purchased under the 20 year ratio could be refitted or converted later under the 8 year and current ratios? Thus the old Warbirds and Hawks could see their + refits and eventual Wareagle/Battlehawk conversions before play begins.
Can you not form your fleet with that in mind Nick? I was thinking of how this might affect the Roms when I wrote that rule but admittedly did not crunch the numbers for a full fleet.
As to multiple challenges, I had intended only one challenge per player per round, but multiple challenges could certainly be allowed if all players agreed.
Oh, so the year restrictions would be separate for ship and refit? I see, that would change things a bit, I was going with a refitted ship was completely in the more restrictive category, not putting the ship in one category and just the cost of the refit in the more restrictive category. That would ease things up, have to crunch the numbers out again though.
I would suggest that when there are multiple force levels in a scenario, that the force level be part of the challenge. I challenged Fred to a duel at the 65(+6d6) BPV level. Furthermore, a counter challenge cannot be the same scenario with a different force level.
By using the duel, this may help avoid the all CW fleet (you risk getting challenged at the 65 BPV duel level and have nothing to fight with).
Or perhaps the challengee is the one who choses the force level. You could call for a duel, but you might not get to use that shiny new D5K.
What is the 280/200 in the defender column of the Base Assault?
Where is drone speed for the year in question purchased? Is it part of the ship's basic cost or is it part of the CO items (it shouldn't be). It has to be somewhere or the Kzinti in the later games are going to be monsters (20% free BPV is major).
I'd suggest moving the alternative starting years to (U10.9). Like this you can tweak the BPV for each (eg the "cheap" duel in Y180 should probably be 90 + 6d6 since fleets should primarily have DW as their smallest units).
Quote:Geoff said:
I'm especially looking for feedback on whether 1,750+600 bpv is good for starting forces and if 100bpv+spoils of war is good for replacements/repairs.
That means ~1 SC4 ship every 4th month and a War Cruiser on the 8th month, as a reinfocement. Not much in the way of replacements. Attrition units (fighters, bombers, PFs) should be accounted for somehow. Like you get 6 fighters, 3 bombers, 2 PFs every 2 months as replacements. (Maximum you can stockpile is 1 extra squadron of anything at the SB)
This should probably be changed, multiplied by how many people can "challenge" the player. If he has 2 "Neighbors", it should be doubled. To account for twice as many battle he has to fight (possibly).
This was one option I was working on for something similar.
You have one big hex. Each hex side is for one player and is the gate way to each Star Base (and beyond that could be the Capitol). At the edge of the hex is the BATTS (two or three in this case). The area in the hex is open space where ships are moved into. Ships make challenges. After winning or not being opposed they can move to attack a BATTS. After that the SB (in this case there could be a middle area between the BATTS and the SB and so on with the Capitol).
I modified my post to fit this campain but it could work. Perhaps I'll work up a play map and have it posted.
David;
I would suggest that when there are multiple force levels in a scenario, that the force level be part of the challenge.
Done.
Furthermore, a counter challenge cannot be the same scenario with a different force level.
Why not?
What is the 280/200 in the defender column of the Base Assault?
BS+280 or BATS+200 to equal the opposing force base bpv. I've altered that in my original to make that more clear.
Where is drone speed for the year in question purchased? Is it part of the ship's basic cost
Exactly, see U10.12.
I'd suggest moving the alternative starting years to (U10.9).
Done.
Like this you can tweak the BPV for each (eg the "cheap" duel in Y180 should probably be 90 + 6d6 since fleets should primarily have DW as their smallest units).
Hmm, probably more typing than it would be worth. This is something easily agreed apon by both players if necesary I would think?
Scott;
I wanted losses to hurt. And seeing as fleets are somewhat small, assuming 20 years of buildup I think 400 bpv a year is reasonable. We could go to 150 bpv but I'm wary of the game becoming about sitting back and outproducing like most campaigns are.
Don't forget that players will get more bpv for winning scenarios.
As to multi-challenges these rules were setup to be a club campaign, so expecting one player to play multiple challenges a round may be pushing it. But I am certainly interested in how that might work if feasable.
Quote: Furthermore, a counter challenge cannot be the same scenario with a different force level.
Why not?
My thought here was this would help force a more varied fleet and more varied scenarios (avoiding everything just being a duel). I'm not sure this will work in practice...
I had missed (U10.12), but I was more thinking (U10.42) where the issue also applies (although really only for drone speeds).
As far as the alternative starting years, maybe just a note in that section that the players may want to adjust the BPV values based on the starting year (and perhaps an example). I do agree that working it all out is probably overkill. Agreement among players can be harder than expected (more due to misunderstandings and different assumptions). This is also a reaction to the PBEM FCG game where we had to define huge amounts from scratch (including what ships qualified:-).
With regards to multiple challenges. Even if only designed for one challenge, that should be clearly stated (ie each player may only be challenged once per round). Multiple challenges need to be carefully considered to make sure they can't be abused.
I had assumed that each player had one challenge per round and assumed no player could be challenged more than once each round, thus a maximum of 2 games per player per round (one as the challenger and one as the challengee), with the player always having the option to only fight one round.
My only concern about the BPV would be for replenshable items. Its going to make fighters and PFs difficult to maintain. I suppose if the goal is no attrition units it works. Maybe allow players to purchase fighters and PFs at their economic cost for replacements only (ie they're still their BPV for the intial force and for determining the forces for a scenario).
Missing escorts should at still occupy a command slot. It gives some incentive to replace them (as opposed to ending up with a CVA and no escorts and not worrying about it).
But if 2 people just want to play duels with each other, why not? Part of this proposal is to let people play the games they want within the campaign framework. They aren't risking much so won't gain much either.
As to U10.42 should there be a statement that a ship with a drone speed surcharge (already paid for) counts as that total bpv for forming the force then?
A concern that has risen with me is this; player A challenges player B to a duel. Player B 'surrenders' his CA. Player A gains 300 vps and 150/300 bpv (this part is still undecided imo) and player B loses nothing but the ship. Next round they repeat this with the ship coming back to Player B. Thus every month they are gaining 600 vps and 300/600 bpv.
I have no solution for this unless we go with negative vps and/or bpv, and I wanted to avoid penalizing the losers of a war already.
David;
Challenges-I like your interpretation. Thus a player could control if he fights 1/2 games a round. My intention was to make it 'dave and phil are fighting, I guess I'll challenge steve' but allowing the challenged player to open another battle or not is a neat solution.
This does mess with my careful wording of challenger and challengee though based on one battle per round.
What do you guys prefer if you were to play this?
Fighters; the minute you go to economic bpv you encourage attrition units. This isnt an economic campaign so I had intended full combat bpv to be paid for everything. Fighters can be purchased in non-economic rounds though, perhaps that is not clear in the rules? (U10.64)
Escorts; not requiring replacements leaves the choice open to the player when they are lost. I like that myself.
Atrrition units.
Given that they have to be bought for BPV intially and use their BPV cost for scenarios, they're not going to be that common (espcially since you already limited the force to one CV/PFT total). A PFT or CWV is going to run at least 500 BPV (a player might squeeze one into 400, depending on the race). Thats almost a third of a player's total force. And it will only be useful in the large squadron skirmish, the fleet action or the assaults scenarios (and in the BATS assault there is a risk it will be too large).
30 damage to a cruiser (in a fleet) is "free" to fix. 30 damage to a fighter squadron would cost 30 BPV (roughly) to replace. I was suggesting lowering the replacement cost to 15 (econ). I don't see this as being a problem. Especially given the low replacement rates.
Casual PFs may be more of an issue. Perhaps only allow full PFTs the economic cost (and don't allow them to be transferred), as long as they replenish to a full flotilla (ie must include the leader and scout).
With the current rules, I would be very unlikely to take attrition units. This will force a Hydran force to take HB ships instead of a more reasonable mixed fleet. And even then they'll likely be at a disadvantage...
I was only suggesting that like F&E the missing escort cost a command slot, not any requirement to replace them. I don't think this will be a big deal in most cases (maybe at the capital assault or large fleet battle)--I don't expect to see many fleets with 8+ ships in the campaign.
I'm in agreement with DKass.
I like the freedom of the campaign. Some minor nitpicks and comments:
- Make turns to overhaul 10 - Size Class rather than the other way around (saves a negative).
- Fighter replacements need to be considered with regards the Hydrans. Limiting carriers as a design decision is great. You could adopt FnE logic and put Hydran hybrid ships in a different category for replacements (say Hybrids pay Econ BPV, carriers pay combat for replacements). The problem is that this will be a continual drain on the Hydran economy which other races don't have. Perhaps allow Hybrids to use the campaign replacement rules (50% of fighters come back free) and make carriers pay for it.
- I might suggest two pools for auxilliaries and ground defenses - each half the size. Unless you want the strategy to be 'Assault a convoy (forcing him to buy freighters) THEN assault the capital when he has no BPV left for ground defenses'.
- I have played a campaign somewhat similar to this (the scenarios were randomly chosen). We started with 1000 BPV fleets with 75 BPV per round (plus victory point gains). That was too large - losses rarely affected the next scenario - the pool of available ships was simply too large. I suspect this campaign with 1750/100 replacements every 4th round will be similar - although replacements are markedly lower. 1750 is so large that unless you suffer fleet action after base assault after fleet action losses won't really become an issue, especially as you can dodge anything that ties your fleet down by counter-challenging a frigate duel.
- As a generator of interesting scenarios I find it good. I'm still pondering the strategic implications (whether a capital assault will ever happen for example).
David&David,
Attrition units: some very good points, I hadn't considered the free repair factor for ships. Would economic cost for true carrier/tenders for replacement fighters/pfs be adequate? Or should a certain number of free fighter replacements be factored in as well?
I don't want to hurt the Hydrans but i don't want to encourage fighter/pf usage above regular units either.
Perhaps allow Hybrids to use the campaign replacement rules (50% of fighters come back free) and make carriers pay for it.
What rule is this and how would it work? Hydran hybrids are true carriers by definition actually so they would fall under the proposal above.
- Make turns to overhaul 10 - Size Class rather than the other way around (saves a negative).
Done, although my bad math had somehow made this seem shorter than it was. Overhauling the sc3 is 7turns, 9 at the SB.
- I might suggest two pools for auxilliaries and ground defenses - each half the size.
Possible, although I'm thinking of upping that pool to 800 now. With enough bpv would the division be necesary? And where would space base items be with a ground base/auxillaries division?
- I have played a campaign somewhat similar to this (the scenarios were randomly chosen). We started with 1000 BPV fleets with 75 BPV per round (plus victory point gains). That was too large - losses rarely affected the next scenario - the pool of available ships was simply too large. I suspect this campaign with 1750/100 replacements every 4th round will be similar - although replacements are markedly lower. 1750 is so large that unless you suffer fleet action after base assault after fleet action losses won't really become an issue, especially as you can dodge anything that ties your fleet down by counter-challenging a frigate duel.
I've made it harder to dodge assaults now, you must meet and beat them in open space essentially. And keep in mind you have to maintain a varied fleet to be able to maximize your force in each random bpv game.
Any other suggestions?
I'd suggest that the economic cost will be more expensive but it balances the force multiplier effect of the AU...
Re:assaults
U10.33 If the initial challenge is an Assault scenario, the challengee can only accept this challenge or respond with a Skirmish or Fleet Action scenario challenge. Essentially, the challengee is meeting the attacker in open space in response. If the challenger wins this scenario, then he may freely select the same original Assault scenario in the next round and the challengee must accept (assuming it is the same players involved again).