In the F&E rules (as provided so far), the Andromedans can retreat with no pursuit. They can fight many short battles, give up sat ship factors, and then leave. Give all motherships the formation bonus if they have a certain amount of sat ship factors so that they are difficult to destroy, and they can play the attrition battle hitting non-capital or well-defended targets. They become like the Hydran and Kzintis making quick counter attacks, giving up fighters, then departing.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Friday, June 07, 2019 - 03:11 pm: Edit

A single Andro Mother ship in a province Should wreck havoc. A single Viper not so much. Andros as long as they have access to a RTN should never be out of supply?

Rules for the RTN. How to set one up and how to look for it and then kill it?

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Friday, June 07, 2019 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Without a double blind map (i.e., the playtest F&E rules at current)... My thought is you get one "research point" for every sat base you destroy (maybe more for the larger bases). When you get to a certain level you can launch an attack on the Andromedans in the Cloud. Each empire keeps its own total but allies can combine points. Pirates (and other empires) can sell their research points. Set the level of research points required high to encourage a joint effort.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, June 07, 2019 - 10:44 pm: Edit

I might suggest that the initial wave of Andromedan conquest in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud from Y146 to Y157 (as detailed here) could offer perhaps the closest thing the Andromedans might get to a "traditional" campaign this side of Operation Unity, were the prospect of an LMC product for F&E to be an option after Andro War is eventually published.

As well as the operational movement limits noted above, the Magellanic empires are restricted both in terms of their Size Class limitations and in the relative strength of their fixed installations (those used by the Baduvai and Eneen, at least) relative to Alpha Octant (or even Maghadim) standards. Plus, all three Magellanic Powers had been weakened by the Second Neutral Worlds War, making it more difficult for them to effectively respond to this new threat.

From the Andromedan perspective, the invaders were to a large part obliged to build the fledgling RTN as they went; much of their initial push would have been along a pair of axes stemming from the area surrounding the first Desecrator to the Baduvai and Uthiki home worlds on one side of the Core, and to the Eneen capital on the other.

Also, it is noted in (MS1.26) that set-piece battles in which the two-DisDev limit was broken (by units turning off their displacement devices to allow more units to amass in one place) were more common than in the Milky Way.

All of this might make the first wave of the war for the Cloud an interesting campaign to play out, in a way which would be distinct from the Andromedan operations in the Alpha and Omega Octants.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, June 08, 2019 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

I have to disagree.

The operational plans the Andromedans would have employed in the Magellanic Cloud are the same ones they would have used in the Alpha and Omega Octants.

Ultimately, with their limited numbers, they could not afford, even in the conquest of the Magellanic Cloud, to sustain an attrition war. Ships lost "fighting fair" (my words) in the Magellanic Cloud would not be available for operations in the Alpha or Omega Octants, nor to handle "the unexpected."

A major factor in all decisions by the "local" Andromedan commanders is always going to be the fact that their line of communications goes all the way back to their home galaxy, which imposes severe time and distance factors on their operations. They could not ignore those, which means they cannot afford to conduct a campaign where they deliberately trade on their small available forces for gains that are not worth the losses overall.

Put simply: Every strategic, operational, and tactical decision made by any Andromedan commander at any level, whether lowly Viper commander, mid level task group commander, or overall supervisor of the operation to conquer the Magellanic Cloud is going to be made against the backdrop of the larger operation to invade and conquer the Milky Way Galaxy. Given the paucity of Andromedan resources (they are always going to be outnumbered in the Milky Way) no commander is going to sacrifice more than absolutely must be given up to achieve the immediate goals and support the overall strategic directive.

Or, as Admiral Kumerian famously observed: "Never fight a battle that you do not have to win."

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, June 09, 2019 - 03:29 pm: Edit

SPP,

By the time their respective invasions of the Alpha and Omega Octants had broken out, the Andromedans had already been able to establish a viable RTN in both areas over the preceding decades. Plus, in the case of Omega, they were able to use the backdrop of the Second Great War to establish themselves in the Ryn Nebula and to provide themselves with a beach-head of sorts in open space through the conquest of the Iridani New Kingdom. And on top of this, the one empire which had tasked itself with investigating the Andromedan presence in Omega, the Chlorophons, had had these efforts pre-empted through their joining the United Alliance in Y183, preventing them from getting any closer to uncovering the truth behind the RTN than they had managed to by that point in time.

Back in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud, by the time the first Desecrator starbase was rendered operational in Y145, the Andromedans had a maximum of eight Intruders, one Infestor, ten Vipers, and a Courier to hand (if one goes by the Module C5 timeline linked to in my previous post); minus any losses in combat during the Andromedan efforts to sweep the nearby Fringe region, such as in the scenario presented in Captain's Log #42. Between this point and the open commencement of hostilities in Y146, they gave themselves only a year's worth of time to bring in reinforcements along the Intergalactic Trunk Line, to use the Desecrator itself to construct new items (depending on what, if anything, an Andromedan starbase is capable of managing through its own efforts), and/or to place their first Satellite Bases in anticipation of the pending conflict.

But then, rather than waiting longer to launch the first wave of conquest, the Andromedans may have been emboldened by the state in which their soon-to-be opponents had been weakened by the Second Neutral Worlds War of Y139-Y145. The Maghadim had been driven back into the Core and would not return in force until Y152; whereas the Baduvai and Eneen, who had only three years in which to recover from the Great War of Y125-Y136 before being plunged into combat once more, had seen their own northern fleets depleted in the efforts to retake Sleern and the other Neutral Worlds.

However, even if the above circumstances offered a key window of opportunity for the invaders to strike, this would still have obliged them to fight more of a "traditional" campaign at first, if only due to the need to establish Satellite Bases as they went. As more and more RTN nodes were being placed, the closer and closer the Andromedans would have gotten to fighting a more recognizable campaign, though their ability to establish bases "behind enemy lines" might have been hampered by the Baduvai encountering their first Satellite Bases in Y149.

Plus, it is worth noting the seemingly irrational degree of hostility which the invaders displayed against the Uthiki. They were willing to "suffer heavy casualties" in the attack on Uth in Y151, and went out of their way to bombard the Uthiki home world, along with any other Uthiki-occupied gas giants they encountered, far beyond the extent needed to merely subdue such planets. (This also meant that they were willing to forego any tribute they could have extracted from subjugated Uthiki planets, just as the Lyrans and Kzintis did when they committed xenocide against the Carnivons in the Early Years of the Alpha Octant.)

Once the first wave of conquest had been completed through the conquest of the Baduvai and Eneen home worlds, the next few decades would have seen them more thoroughly establish their RTN across the Cloud, not least in ringing the Core with satellite bases. Even so, it would appear that, to at least a partial extent, the first wave itself had represented a major gamble, in that the invaders had been willing to go to war without the kind of ground work they would later prepare in the Alpha and Omega Octants.

Speaking of which, my reading of the C5 timeline has it that the Andromedans had been trying to establish RTN links to the Chomak Cluster as early as Y172, but that these were rebuffed; be it by the Chomak themselves, or by others (to include a Maghadim exile cell, which destroyed a satellite base in Y182). Yet while this had perhaps held off the inevitable, it was not enough to prevent a major Andromedan campaign from Y182 to Y185, which led to the conquest of the Chomak Cluster outright. In other words, while the Chomak had found themselves in the Andromedans' cross-hairs much earlier, the final campaign took only a few years - or twice as many F&E turns - to play out to its conclusion.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, June 09, 2019 - 06:49 pm: Edit

My apologies: I seem to have misread the satellite ship details from the C5 timeline.

To clarify, the arrivals listed are:

Y138: 1 Intruder + 3 Vipers + 1 Courier
Y139: 1 Intruder + 3 Vipers + 1 Courier; 1 Infestor + core Desecrator base components
Y140: 1 Intruder + 1 Viper + Desecrator base components
Y141: 1 Intruder + 1 Viper + Desecrator base components; Andromedans begin clearing nearby Fringe areas
Y142: 1 Intruder + 1 Viper + Desecrator base components
Y143: 1 Intruder + 1 Viper + Desecrator base components
Y144: 1 Intruder + 1 Viper + Desecrator base components
Y145: 1 Intruder + 1 Viper + Desecrator base components; first Desecrator completed

So, by the time the ITL is up and running, the total number of arrivals would be:
8 Intruders,
1 Infestor,
12 Vipers, and
2 Couriers.

Again, before one subtracts for any combat losses or other problems during this time.

On a side note, it would appear that the components needed to be shipped in to construct a Desecrator take up (24+9+9+9+9+9+9=) 78 "hangar points" (in Federation Commander terms) of space, not counting any added materials the invaders might also need to extract from the local area in order to get the starbase up and running.


Now, according to (R10.1E1) in Module C2, construction of the Desecrator began in Y160 and was completed in Y165; the incomplete starbase was already capable of constructing Vipers and satellite bases by Y163. While this data was printed prior to that in Module C5, if the same principle still holds, one could permit the first Desecrator to start constructing Vipers and satellite bases in either Y142 or Y143. In which case, one might need to clarify at some point what kind of production facilities even an incomplete Desecrator provides, and at precisely what point this capacity is made available.


In addition, it's not clear whether or not these arrivals happen in the "Spring" or "Fall" of their respective years. But at its most generous, one could say that the Desecrator was finished in Spring Y145, and that the invasion began in Fall Y146; leaving two turns (Fall Y145 and Spring Y146) of "full-scale" activity for the Andromedans to undertake before things kicked off in earnest.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, June 10, 2019 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

Again, the numbers say there was in the general conquest of the cloud no "front line" and no operations where the Andromedans ran a normal campaign.

Again, the "general conquest."

This very clearly does change against the Chomak, because unlike the rest of the Magellanic Cloud the Chomak were able to keep the Andromedans from extending the RTN into their area of space, which forced the Andromedans, in the end, to conduct a war with a "front line" (the "line of contact" between the Andromedan controlled portions of the cloud and edge of Chomak space). Even then, the Andromedans sought to outflank the Chomak by extending the RTN around them.

And, yes the break into Maghadim space was essentially an Assault in force.

But, no, the Andromedans did not do that in the rest of the Cloud. The Eneen, Baduvai, Uthiki, Yrol Septs, were essentially conquered the same way the Andromedans tried to conquer the Alpha and Omega Octants. The Andromedans avoid major battles because of the age old factor that "Offense Stacks, Defense Doesn't." If you get into a large battle there is enough raw firepower to punch the Andromedan power absorber panels and destroy their ships. So the Andromedans avoid those whenever possible.

By the way, in construction, also remember they are building sleds, ground bases, and cargo pods. The dates for most Andromedan units on the MSC are when they were first observed in the Milky Way/Alpha Octant. So while Andromedan ground bases and DefSats have Y176 as the year in service, they were clearly in use earlier in the Magellanic Cloud, and may have been in use in the Alpha Octant (given that Sleds were seen in Y166) but no one stumbled across the earlier use.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, June 10, 2019 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

One of the things you overlook is logistics. In simple terms, when the intruders first start arriving and moving around, and before the first Desecrator goes on line: HOW WERE THEY SUPPLIED?

You simply assume that the arriving Andromedan units did not really do anything until the Desecrator was built, and thus there were no Satellite Bases or other things. No replacement for expanded T-bombs, no source of repairs, no source of spare widgets to keep the ships operational. You are looking at only the TEETH and ignoring the TAIL. (Sorry, could not resist.)

Yes, the Intergalactic trunk line would make this faster when it was connected to the Desecrator, but that long line of bases linking the Andromedans to their home galaxy was already in existence, being built piece by piece, and OTHER units that are nominally unseen were using it. This led to the Conjectural Galleon and Caravel designs as an effort to explain the Andromedan logistics, but the fact that the chain of bases for the Intergalactic Trunk Line exists (and something had to place them) makes it entirely possible that that same force was delivering supplies to the Magellanic Cloud, including satellite bases to start setting up the Magellanic Cloud Rapid Transit Network. And as noted whatever this was, it was unseen. That does not mean it was not there.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 01:21 pm: Edit

In simple terms: Where do the crews come from?

The first Desecrator alone required a number of crew units equal to roughly 50% of the total crews of half of the Intruders (not counting satellite ships) available when it went on line. Where did they come from?

When new Vipers were constructed, where did the crews for them come from?

When Satellite Bases were deployed, every two of them required as much crew as an Intruder, where did they come from?

Yes, the boarding parties were robots, but the sensors of ships in the Alpha Octant, at least, detected "life" aboard Andromedan ships, even if they could not identify it (maybe an effect of Power Absorber Panel interference?). Something is delivering crew, both to man newly constructed units (such as satellite bases and replacement satellite ships and newly constructed Sleds, and planetary defense units, and etc.) and as replacements for crew casualties. There are too many jobs for crews to assume that each arriving ship arrived with enough surplus crew to man all of the new construction and etc.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Maybe they reproduce differently, and mature rapidly.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Nick Samaras:

That has been suggested in the article on the lack of innovation by the Andromedans in Captain's Log #43. That was part of a discussion with SVC, even though the article has my name on it.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 04:55 pm: Edit

SPP,

I had been under the impression that some, if not all, Andromedan "crew units" were themselves robots (such as the simulacra encountered in various instances), akin to those on Juggernauts or on Drex warships.

There need not necessarily be a direct link between the number of Andromedan "people" aboard a ship and how potent a "life signature" they might produce. While an individual the size of, say, a Drexari might not leave much of a trace on another ship's scanners, a being the size of an adult Chlorophon might show up as a significant set of "life signs" in and of itself. Or, if an Andromedan "person" were to be some kind of energy-based life form, akin to an Organian or a Souldra, that might also set off another ship's scanners in a manner which may not equate with any physical (robotic) "crew units" busy running the actual ship.


As for the Intergalactic Trunk Line, there might be different options based on which - if either - of the postulations in the article from Captain's Log #49 are closer to the mark.

If Star Fleet's suggestion is accurate (in that pairs of "Installer" Motherships had been placing dedicated ITL bases at 20-year distances from one another), then one could either be sending "slow boat" supplies from the closest station to the LMC, perhaps by using Installers to ferry such items to the Desecrator construction site, or perhaps using an ITL station placed in (or adjacent to) the Cloud itself in order to facilitate the construction project. In which case, perhaps the "spare" Installers would then be used to help construct the starbase itself?

If the Klingons have a better guess (in that each "Roadbed" ship was stopping at a 20-year interval and becoming the station), would there be a Roadbed brought all the way to the LMC and used as a supply point (and either dismantled once the Desecrator was nearing completion, or perhaps subsumed into the starbase itself) - or would there be similar "slow boat" shipments from other ships being sent along the ITL?

In either case, it might be worth clarifying whether or not even an incomplete ITL provides some degree of strategic movement, or if the system only works once a Desecrator is established at the terminus point. Or, for that matter, if there is a difference in terms of "bandwidth"; as in, is there a limitation in how much "traffic" the incomplete ITL can handle, relative to that which its completed version can provide?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 06:22 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

Truthfully, no matter what you (or I) think on the matter, what the crew of an Andromedan ship is is unknown. That they are not all robots is stated in the article (which again SVC approved), BUT there is no knowing beyond that there are living beings of some sort on Andromedan ships, bases, and mobile weapons platforms. Way back when they were included in Prime Directive it was even stated that they might simply be "evil spirits." No one knows, but they are "living creatures" of some kind.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 06:39 pm: Edit

My vote is still 'evil spirits' with the proviso that they do show up in life sign scans.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 06:50 pm: Edit

To throw another stick of dynamite on the fire, if I remember correctly, there's another Canon aspect showing Andromedans are NOTHING like life as we know it; Souldra are unable to feed off of Andromedan crew units.

Maybe they have "Instant Crew, just add water," like the bird-like Martians my good friend Marvin had use of (from time to time). Not too bright, but I think he had better luck with them than he had with his Illudium Pyew-36 Explosive Space Modulator...

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 07:15 pm: Edit

I think crewing is an unanswerable question, without knowing what their crew is*. Perhaps most of them are kept in some sort of a transporter buffer, perhaps the live crew is limited to the asterisk level on the SSD with the rest robots. As long as we do not know, basing arguments on this is speculation.

*To be fair, SVC and SPP may have these answers so that the Andro development remains consistent.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 08:09 pm: Edit

what if the crew of the andromedan ships are just clones?

They come with 10,000 or whatnot crew in stasis from another galaxy.

Then clone with with Transporters at-will.

They can transport a full ship. Why not unethically clone troopers

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 08:16 pm: Edit

I should also note that the aforementioned Chlorophons do not show up on a Phon ship's SSD: all of the "crew units" are for the complement of Keepers aboard. The presence of the Phon captain is subsumed into (OR7.03) and (OR7.04).

Indeed, just as a given Phon holds responsibility for its attendant Keepers, perhaps the Andro "beings" see their robots in a similar manner?

In any event, even if it were to be determined that the bulk of Andromedan "crew units" were comprised of robots, there should still be enough leeway left to ensure that the mystery of who, or what, the Andromedan "beings" actually are remains open.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 10:06 pm: Edit

I always liked the intelligent software theory. It asks the question though galactic boarding parties encountered robot boarding parties, but never came across the bodies of a dead Andromedan in a corridor or some such?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, June 13, 2019 - 12:30 pm: Edit

In simple, no one knows what the Andromedans are. They are probably NOT robots, and probably NOT Chlorophon analogs, and probably not anything remotely "normal" (given the one Federation Marine) is pretty much a given. You can imagine whatever you wish (I imagine robotic bodies with living brains surgically removed from the original body and installed, but that is just me). The only one who will ever really know is SVC, and he has not even confided in me, and I tend to doubt if he has even confided in Leanna. (He may have confided in the dog on a walk, but if so, I am unaware of what was revealed.)

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 13, 2019 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Arf?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 13, 2019 - 01:15 pm: Edit

THE DOCTOR IS AN ENEMY OF THE DALEKS ANDROS!

ALL ENEMIES OF THE ANDROS WILL BE EXTERMINATED!

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Thursday, June 13, 2019 - 01:15 pm: Edit

OPERATION SNATCH'N'REPLACE

TARGET: Small Furry Canine
OBJECTIVE: Interrogation...I mean, Discussion
METHOD: Temporary Replacement with Stuffed Animal
TOOLS: Biscuits, Toys, Treats, Petting, Steak (Rare)
UNITS: All Texas Agents - Covert, Clothed, Mechanical, Plant, and Alien
RESISTANCE: As last resort only, use Truth Serum Andro-Truth-001 (Cherry Flavored)
SECONDARY TARGET: SPP as Bargaining Chip...I mean, to attend Famous Celebrity Banquet

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, June 13, 2019 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Hrrrmmm.... For a small dog, shouldn't the truth serum be liver flavored? It would work on cats too.