What race BATS are you laying seige to?

By Chris Smith (Casmith1) on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 11:15 am: Edit

Troy: I agree, however the BCG was the best I could do with year 179. I could have bought more ships but it gets to the point where there are too many, and it was legal in the books to have it. The 900 pts. does include the BATS. John: The way we are setup, we select our forces largely in ignorance of what we are going up against. Sort of adds an element of excitement and forces you to really think about how to use your equipment. Looks like my first opponent is going to go with Lyrans and the second opponent is still deciding between Kzinti/Hydran/Romulan. Thanks for you thoughts.

C.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Depending on how the seige fleet is to work, the BCG might even be the better choice, though that admission doesn't come easily. I'm a BCF fan too.

This fleet looks like a range-30 "rolling thunder" fleet. Drones add to this either through harassment value or ECM drones. F-torps give a siege fleet defense against a charge from the defenders but don't add anything to actually killing the base.

By Evan Pierce (Evanpierce) on Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Hello everyone. I am looking for some tactical advice on an upcoming scenario.

I am playing the defensive side as Fed in an increasingly bloody Admiral's Game.

Currently we have completed Turn #2, DefLine #2. We are doing 6 month increments on turns. Start of game was Jan 1 Y171, so that makes this recently concluded turn the end of Y171.

The bastard Klinks that have invaded did me the favor of leaving one of my BATS in the rear on DefLine #1.

The fleet forces I have allocated to defend the BATS are (the Klink already knows this):

CL+ x 2
FF
FFV (6 x F-8)
FFE

I have limited intel on the Klink screening force but here is what I know:

D hull (believe it's probably a vanilla D6)
1 x F5
F5V
E4E
E4 x 4

I realize I am significantly outgunned (especially at range 15 or less), but I am going to sally on the Klinks anyway. After all, we play this game to fight, don't we?

I am thinking the only chance I have is to keep the range at 25-30 (preferably at 25 to make best use of the P-1s), and try to wear him down. This Fed squadron is very fast (for Feds anyway), so this should help me conduct a long range battle. A charge, while satisfying, will guarantee I lose every ship in my squadron. Hell, I might do that anyway though since I am partial to fireworks...

What do you guys think?

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Evan is the BATS involved in this engagement or is this some sort of approach battle.

By Evan Pierce (Evanpierce) on Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Ed,

The Klinks have elected to "screen" the BATS, so I have elected to sally and attack their screening forces. Scenario would be open space, floating map. BATS would not be involved. Thanks in advance
for your help/input : )

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 10:31 pm: Edit

A lot depends on what exact ship that D-hull is. If the opponent is running a bluff with a non-combat ship, then it can be a bloody draw. But if that is a real D6 or better, the Klingons will probably win an extended engagement while taking little damage. Both sides have very good drone defenses compared to the drone launch capability but the Feds lack enough photons to punch through the Klingon shields at range. (Trading the carrier and escort for regular frigates would have helped a lot.)

My tactics would be an unglamorous attempt to pick off more fighters than the Klingons can replace for the next round and then withdraw back to the base. Draw the battle; win the campaign.

By Evan Pierce (Evanpierce) on Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 10:57 pm: Edit

Richard,

Good points, all. I had not thought much about the defensive capabilities side of the equation, but now that you point it out, it's not *quite* as hopeless as it looked to me at first glance.

My opponent actually told me what the D hull was, but since we were packing up at the time following the bloodbath that was the battle in Sector #6, it slipped my mind as to what he said. It may in fact not be a line D6 - I just can't recall what it was. Intel officer is getting reassigned to a science station on Io, ASAP...

I had not anticipated him using an escort carrier group to screen, as he generally disdains carriers (at least thus far in the campaign). This basically neutralizes the fighters.

I anticipate that once he sees me keeping the range long that he will use the E4s like a pack of PFs (it's what I'd do) and charge me in order to get some use out of them. I can crush two of them on the way in, but not four.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 11:12 pm: Edit

Everybody forgets that the E4 is one of the truly great attack frigates. Maybe because they rarely get to see a pack of them in action....

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 05:37 am: Edit

Fed MIGHT consider making a single battle pass, everyone firing Photons & Phaser 1s at range 15 and then returning to the BATS at max. You'd have a decent chance of punching someones shields (esp the E4s) and doing damage over the CDR...

Mike Grafton

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, June 16, 2015 - 03:59 pm: Edit

One thing I find interesting about the Federation in the SFU is how, with relatively few interruptions, they have a heritage of building survey ships which are powerful and flexible enough to act as useful combatants (or, at least, as capable heavy scouts) in their own right.

From the sensor-equipped Vulcan cruisers which supported the W-era planetary fleets and the Y-era Star Fleet, to the Byrd-class Galactic Survey Cruisers and their various mission variants, through to the Einstein-class GSXs and their GVX step-sibling, each era had a range of options which stood out from many of their peers. (Fo what it's worth, I'm hoping that there might be an "XGS" to further this tradition in Module X2; but that's a topic for another thread and time.)

Granted, there was a relatively short gap between the phasing out of the old Vulcan cruisers and the onset of the first GSC, during which time the Feds "only" had more mundane survey options like the CLS and GSR. And one could argue that the various -C and -E modules give the Hawk-series Romulans their own array of "fighting survey cruisers". But I digress.

-----

So, for those here with experience flying Federation squadrons in SFB, do you prefer to take one of these ship types as your heavy scout if one is made available to you - or would you rather have a dedicated electronic warfare platform in your force instead?

For example, Module X1R presents the NASX, which is perhaps not quite intended to "go it alone" in wartime the way that the GSX or GVX might be. But if you were assembling a "flying squadron" of Star Fleet X-ships, which heavy scout option would you rather have at hand?

Of course, in a broader campaign, there'd often be very good reasons for using one type of ship over the other in order to carry out various tasks. The Feds would presumably want to keep their NASXs in "flying squadrons" against the Andros and allow the GVX and GSXs to go RTN-hunting - but the more limited operational range of the NASX make it a much more awkward proposition to work with for Operation Unity, as noted in that hull type's R-section.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, June 16, 2015 - 04:36 pm: Edit

I am the wrong person to ask.

I use electronic warfare, I cannot really see not using it (just as I cannot see not using hidden mines when laid from a hatch or a rack). An electronic warfare platform will almost always appear in any force I put tother unless something is strongly mitigating against its use (e.g., terrain where special sensors do not work).

If I assemble a squadron of police ships, and the BPV allows, it will try to have a police scout, or police flagship if there is no police scout.

A squadron of frigates, a frigate scout.

A squadron of war destroyers, a war destroyer scout.

Two squadrons of ships, at least one scout to support them.

Three squadrons, the same, but the scout will likely be larger if the BPV allows because more ships requires a bigger scout to provide adequate support.

I am quite content to back a fleet with a war cruiser scout.

I have rarely, very very rarely, dragged along a GSC. I generally find them inadequate. Too much space given to immaterial needs (cargo, too many labs or the available special sensors, and heavy weapons that I cannot arm because I need the power for other functions to waste holding the torpedoes, and firing the torpedoes would blind sensors and create a window of vulnerability for the enemy to exploit.

So I have only rarely used them (used the NSC more often in fleet and two-squadron battles and sometimes in a one squadron battle).

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Tuesday, June 16, 2015 - 06:46 pm: Edit

I do not play Feds that often but have played against them a lot. Most players that i have played against will buy a smaller scout. Mind You i play a lot of Old Romulan (war eagle,king eagle) They use there scout to try and keep lock-on when i cloak. I tend to buy a small scout just to guide in plasma to the target.

That said the GSC costs as much as a CA. While a NSC is closer to a destroyer. I would buy the NSC and drop a destroyer and get a CA. More bang i believe.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, June 16, 2015 - 08:01 pm: Edit

Funny, I cannot recall ever having seen a term paper on this . . . probably because it would be considered a "the best ship for" paper, but about the only times I will take a Federation Scout (the DD variant) is if I am fighting the Kzintis, or the Klingons. And then I do not use it for ECM or ECCM, I use it as a drone-killer. I have fouled up many a smug Kzinti's and smirking Klingon's drone plans by reaching out at long range to "turn off their drones" with this ship's special sensors, usually when they have committed significant drone strikes on an "isolated ship." (Eight Special sensors times three attempts at 50% per attempt usually means 12 drones go bye-bye (truth, sometimes I did better than average, sometimes worse), and the scout projects this bubble anywhere within 15 hexes of itself, giving me frontage of 30 hexes where drones "go to die"). Combine it with the labs on the "endangered ships" identifying the drones so that the turn offs are as often as possible the type-IVs while they use their phasers and tractors on the less dangerous drones.

Of course there is a truth that fleet command is not all that happy with me, as I have probably lost more than my share of destroyer scouts. (More than one opposing Kzinti and Klingon player, rather than retreating when they knew the battle was lost, expended their ships to kill the scout in a huff.)

I must admit that I try to avoid taking the destroyer scout if my opponent does not have a lot of drones, but I have used it against a lot of different empires.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 10:46 am: Edit

Reluctant as I am to disagree with SPP, I have to take minor issue with his characterization of the GSC as "inadequate". Perhaps a better description would be "overpriced", at least as regards its ability to serve as a heavy scout in a fleet battle. The issues he lists; cargo, too many labs, photon torpedoes, don't make the GSC any worse as a fleet scout. But they do increase the price without making it better in that role.

The one sense in which "inadequate" might be the right word is in comparison to what it might have been, given the hull capabilities, if had been designed as a maximally efficient heavy combat scout. If some of the systems SPP sites had been converted to additional power and others had been converted either to additional sensors or perhaps drone racks, it would be even better as a combat scout than it is now. But in my opinion it is quite a good heavy scout as is, though perhaps not the most cost-effective one.

Just my .02 quatloos worth.

By Eddie Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 10:58 am: Edit

For me I do prefer the GSC. Usually for a several reasons. It is expensive, but well worth the cost. the first key to using the GSC effectively is mid-turn speed changes to take advantage of the power level. At 36 points of power I normally fly a 12/16-24 split, with standard torps, which gives me 10 points of disposable power + batteries. The batteries are the key, it lets you either add power to what ever you already have or change up to 7 points. It gives you the flexibility most scouts do not have. Depending on the year I like a CC+/CAR+/GSC+ up to a BCF,CC+/GSC combo for 500 points + commanders options. The SC is too restricted and scouts without weapons do not have the ability to finish off an opponent or act as a base to support Fed Phaser 1s in the rearming turns. Durabable, hard to hit, and good weapons. Using ECM drones and an MRS on it allows freedom to use its power to support the rest of the fleet. After 180 if you can use an XP refit it becomes a real charmer.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 03:36 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor:

Do not feel reluctant. Everyone has a different style of play and their own unique way of looking at things. Does not mean either of us is wrong or right [of course, in this instance you are completely in the wrong (GRIN)] but that we view things through the prisms of our own experiences and foibles.

The GSC is, after all, what it is because of what it is intended to be. Converted as you suggest, and it would cost much more and not necessarily be all that much better in part because of its restricted role after such a conversion. It is balanced as a survey ship (perhaps the finest example of that ilk in Star Fleet Battles) and so (in my view) a less than exemplary combat scout.

But, in the end, while I have fought my share of fleet battles (pitting 12 ship fleets against each other), I have fought far, far more squadron battles, and many of those with the little ships (from squadrons of cruisers, usually war cruisers, down to squadrons of police ships, and far more with the small ships than the big boys).

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 05:56 pm: Edit

I like to play small squadrons. Three cruisers with perhaps a scout are some other support ship. I like a pair of KE/WE and two BH. Then add a scout are mauler are what ever..

By Eddie Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 07:15 pm: Edit

We generally play a 500 point plus Commanders options. That usually limits you to 3-5 ships. Found that most players have difficulty handling more ships than that.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 05:16 am: Edit

GSC, good ship.

With the small squadrons at 500/550 points, I like to use different types of ships some times( if the scenario allows it ) instead of the three cruisers and a scout.

All good.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Always like to mix up the ship types trying to find a fun combination. Sometimes you get one that just kicks behind (like that no cuss word) against the force the other guy picked.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Friday, February 23, 2018 - 02:28 am: Edit

I think my favorite Fed 500 force is:
DNG
FFG
FFS+
FFD+

By Eddie Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Friday, February 23, 2018 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Post 180 I like BCF, GSC+, CARa+.
Pre 180 CB, GSC+, CARa+.
Pre170 CC+, GSC, 2DD variants usually DDLs

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, February 23, 2018 - 05:18 pm: Edit

550 BPV for the Federation I have not thought of a Post 180 force (haven't played the Fed in those years).
Pre 180 A carrier group of a CVS, FFA, FFA, FFG.
Pre 170 CA+, DD+, DD+, DD+, DD+.
(some forces I have used, not really favourites)

By Eddie Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Friday, February 23, 2018 - 07:10 pm: Edit

The change I have in the above when it came out was the CS, its power curve fits well with the BCF and CB. The GSC is what really makes it go though. Sometimes when we use post 180 we do allow a limited number of points for XP refits, usually 10 to 15 points.