Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Early Years: Colonial Defense Cruiser	6		07/15 03:11pm
	Archive through July 28, 2019	25		07/31 12:18am
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	Gorn EY troop ships	6		12/31 01:26am
	Archive through August 07, 2019	25		08/08 06:18pm
	Late EY scouts	35		08/14 04:36pm

We have rules for adding X1 tech to GW ships. Are there or will there be rules for adding MY tech to EY ships? I would suspect the W designs were already pushed to the limit but the Y hulls...

I think it's worth noting that in the perspective from the EY era, MY is their X tech.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, August 08, 2019 - 09:08 am: Edit

Actually, that's mostly already available.

Let's see, we have:
- General restrictions.
- Tractor range improvements.
- Transporter range improvements.
- Upgrade Ph-2 to Ph-1.
- Updated shuttles.
- T-bombs.
- Engines.
... and that's about it.

Of that, we know that tractors and transporters just improve over time (unless expressly forbidden in the ship description, which I don't think happens with any Y-ships) for no point cost at all. Likewise, the general improvements pretty much just kick in at Y120 for free, too.

Using the precedence of advanced shuttles, all existing Early Years ships probably just start using "modern" shuttles in Y120 for no cost. (However, killing them nets you an addition BPV per shuttle like with advanced shuttles.) This might or might not require an explicit rule.

Likewise, T-bombs just appear at Y120 (or whenever their introduction date is) and be purchase-able at their normal BPV cost.

The Ph-1 ship improvements are not covered anywhere. This is the one item that could use a rule describing it. Note that this rule would not apply to the Klingons, Hydrans, or Lyrans. They would stick with Ph-2s. The point cost upgrade is likely 1 BPV per phaser, and would be available to the Feds, Kzintis, Gorns, and WYN. I dunno about the ISC, as they kinda follow their own progression. Also, this refit would only be available for new construction Y-ships, not W-ships.

Finally, no ships engines are ever improved. They stay with Y-era engines. Any exceptions would be handled as a new ship and in its ship description entry.

So, adding a rule that explains all of this would probably be pretty useful. It's kinda implied for the most part, but explicitly stating it would indeed be a good thing.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, August 08, 2019 - 11:07 am: Edit

I seem to recall ECM/ECCM capped at 4, too, before the GW increase to 6. Could see a 4/5/6 progression at various dates and for various costs.

Also, it’s not strictly true that the warp engines stayed the same. USUALLY they did, and the ships stayed in service as National Guard units. But some later Y-era designs saw full upgrades to their GW-era replacements - thinking of that last batch of Fed YCAs right before the Constitutions. That might or might not have been possible for other ships, although historically wasn’t done for various reasons, players could experiment with it.

Drone speeds change, but I think standard rules do cover that, already.

Weapon overloading might be rolled out in places, too, for some cost.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, August 08, 2019 - 04:18 pm: Edit

"General Improvements" That means anything that is provided in the Early Years rules that provide some sort of restriction on operations. Like 4 EW instead of 6. Or how quickly you can change speeds. Or any of those dozens of other items I am not going to go look up. While the base rules say that individual ships specify what gets removed and when, for partial refits, I assume they can all be handwaved away at no cost.

Good point on overloads. I figure there is probably a cost with that.

And, again, doing a full engine upgrade just doesn't happen in general. Yes, there are exceptions (F-CA, F-CL, old Roms), but those are dealt with (as I stated) in those specific ship descriptions. And, in each case, they are not "upgrades"; they are whole new ship designations. So, any "partial upgrade" rule doesn't need to cover them. It just needs to note exceptions exist and are dealt with individually.

Finally, don't forget that the National Guard/Local Defense ships from R8 (and occasionally later) are examples of a "fully refitted" Early Years ship. The Fed GCA is a fully refitted YCA. The Klingon LD4 is a fully refitted D4. Any "partial refit" rule would simply have to describe how you get to that point. The destination already exists.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, August 08, 2019 - 06:18 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Any "partial refit" rule would simply have to describe how you get to that point. The destination already exists.

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By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, August 08, 2019 - 10:13 pm: Edit

16 points?

Well, 6 of those are for the phasers. Another, I dunno, 4 or so for overloadable photons. That leaves around another 6 or so for those "general improvements". So, I guess they do have a cost in there. I stand corrected.

But I still don't think the partial upgrade should include the engines. That has to be handled differently. (Just like with partial X upgrades.)

Anyway, I think we got the idea in there. Let's see what else we can find.

By Andrew Cookson (Awcookson) on Friday, August 09, 2019 - 03:36 pm: Edit

Part of why I like EY & MY is that it is the area that the source material is drawn from and also ship designs weren't as perfected as they became later.
SFB is an old game and a well developed one. There has been, purposefully or by happy accident, an eye kept on the slight areas of tech development. EW is a great example. Power systems another.
IMO, the area that is still open to 'color in' the SFUniverse is the Middle Years. Everyone in this conversation of the last few days gets my thoughts, I just wanted to add emphasis on *why* I think it's a good idea to develop the rules for things like partial MY refits and so on beyond just our standard 'refits & upgrades' we have.

Looking at the development history also opens up other areas.
F&E EY economics get really interesting as fleets age out and upgrade.
Fiction gets all sorts of hooks.
PD has the tech level developments built in from the GURPS system (different areas of tech having different tech levels.
One issue will be the Pseudo-Vulcan Treknology that drives those changes (engine mechanics for example) but that is best done for SFB with the application of hand waivium if it's addressed at all.
I know SVC isn't a fan of the X1 partial upgrades but its reflective of reality and, imo, give us some expanded space in the MY to color in the SFU.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Well, remember that Steve Petrick runs SFB (has for years) and he hates partial-X refits more than I do. Partial-M refits for EY ships sounds like something likely to inspire him to new heights of outrage.

"X1 partial upgrades... reflective of reality."

I guess you're right. I mean, all those jet engines and heat-seeking missiles added to Nieuport-29 fighters prove the point.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 05:23 pm: Edit

For what it's worth, partial X-refits are optional rules in SFB, like Positron Flywheels and Super-Intelligent Computer Controlled Ships. Use at your peril. Your mileage may vary. Objects in the mirror might be closer than they appear. This sentence is false.

By Andrew Cookson (Awcookson) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 05:38 pm: Edit

Douglas S, there are already already rules examples of limited tech by race. I agree with you however that the military would want to use them in spite of the limitations. Everyone has FULL special sensors on their bases. I don't know if a MY ship mounted degraded special sensor is worth the trouble.
On the other hand it doesn't violate the statement about the Vulcans only having them in the Early Years. The degraded Special sencon would be in use somewhere about Y90 - Y130.

SPP, I've looked at the YF-EL and don't even see where a special sensor could be wedged in. Looking at the YQ-L as an example of how much a hull could be pushed I have trouble seeing it, but then the YQ-L also has the limitation of having to look like a regular large freighter. Adding the degraded special sensor to a military unit would be near impossible but to a freighter hull we've seen with the AUX units things can sometimes just be strapped on.

*IF* a a version of the YF-EL with a degraded Special Sensor were made (limited production due to economic costs) and a double space & power costs, would the degraded Special Sensors for the non-Vulcan races even be a viable system for MY? The ships with degraded Special Sensors would be rare but in the GW, ships with regular special sensors were rare.

Also, looking at the special sensor functions, the number of rules that would have to have special exceptions done for the degraded special sensors are a lot. Other side, some are in place to cover the EW rules.

This system & ship seem interesting but also look like a dangerous thread to tug on the tapestry and may either be an interesting MY only unit or, as SVC says, a road to madness.

Designing things that are functional but with built in obsolescence is a tough exercise.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 05:40 pm: Edit

Oh, now, c'mon @SVC - we're talking ships, not fighter aircraft.

Ships do routinely see technology advancements integrated as they refit. Even major overhauls like new sensor and network systems, but the weapon systems get replaced out more often than that - Nimitz went to sea with only the RIM-7, saw the CIWS system added, then both replaced with RIM-116s.

Total propulsion plant replacement is more uncommon, but even THAT has happened - the California CGNs seeing their 150mw reactors replaced with 165mw plants during their overhaul.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 05:48 pm: Edit

You are of course correct! I apologize for not noticing the 5" fifty cal deckhouse double mounts on the USS Monitor. Doubtless they were used to shoot down Confederate Zeppelins.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Michael C. Grafton noted that Kzintis start operating Y-class drone bombardment ships in Y95 but the Klingons don't have any Y-class bombardment ships and wait until Y135 for the D6D. He proposed that old D4s might be converted to this mission by Y100.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Ship reference note: Y-version of the Flower-class Corvette.

By Andrew Cookson (Awcookson) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 09:09 pm: Edit

Mike, thanks for the cross reference.
As topic get consolidated and developed, could we see about occasionally cross referencing where the varied proposals are by topic? As an example I found two other MY discussion but two days later can't find the topics.
The other option is to ask SVC to consolidate topics and move posts and we all know Steve has 37 hour days and can easily pull that off.