SPP,

Again, I apologize for failing to be clear. I am not saying that frigates should not be built. That is the opposite of what I intended.

My point is that frigates are just as much of a deathtrap as are gunboats, and if the Federation is willing to accept the losses for the frigates, why is the line drawn at gunboats?

My point was not supposed to be, "Feds don't use gunboats, why do they use frigates?" My point was instead meant to be, "Feds do use frigates, why don't they use gunboats?" The use of frigates is an unchallenged assumption.

(And, honestly, I shouldn't have referenced frigates, anyway. I should have just left the answer, and general question of whether it worked out in its entirety, without the frigate comment. I didn't mean to send the conversation into the weeds. Again.)

By Chris Nasipak (Ecs05norway) on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Weren't most frigates being converted to War Destroyers before PFs were even a thing? Or am I misremembering the timeline?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Well, a single frigate is far more survivable than a single PF. An undamaged Mustang hit by 46 points of damage in a single volley will detonate. It takes nearly double that to destroy a frigate in a single volley. Smaller volleys are more likely to leave a Mustang a powerless hulk (because of the cascading damage from the warp packs) waiting to be finished off than they are to strip a frigate of all of its power before it can disengage.

Neither unit can be expected to survive in a large battle, at least to the end, but a Mustang is more likely to be a powerless wreck waiting to die than Frigate.

Now, this is looking at single ships, and the PF has advantages if the scout is present. But the frigate is far more versatile since it has the tractor, transporter, and shuttles as part of its operations, has greater operational range, and carries enough marines to do something.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Chris, not all empires had frigates that could be converted to DWs. Although some empires FFs could be converted to heavy frigates.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Deleted by author. Duplicate post

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 07:29 pm: Edit

You also have to look at the YIS dates. The FF was foiled in Y127, and upgraded to FFG in Y160. The PF wasn't invented until~Y178-Y181, a time when fleet actions were much more prevalent.

When it was invented, the Burke-FF was the best small ship on the map. The Klingons didn't field the F-5 until eight years later.

Chris: The FFG could have been upgraded to FFB, but not to the DW.

Slightly off topic: I had a story idea set somewhere around Y155 and mentions the FFS. Sadly, I just noticed its YIS date is Y170. {sigh} Maybe I'll sub a FLAG in its place.


Garth L. Getgen

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 09:02 pm: Edit

I really didn't mean for this to go into the weeds so hard. I really want to answer some of the points, but that would take the topic even further into the weeds. So, I won't. And regardless, nothing on this would change, anyway, so we're good.

Again, I am sorry for leading the conversation so far off topic.

For the record, I still like the Corvette and look forward to the seeing it in FC and what the Y-version looks like.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 12:13 am: Edit

Mike West

"A squadron of F-111 fighters has 24 people total (four on each of the six fighters):

Is that manning Canon? I always thought heavy fighters had 2 crew. Medium Bombers 3 to 4. heavy Bombers 4 to 6.

With the FB111 being an oddball with maybe 3...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 12:22 am: Edit

Two per F111

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 06:06 am: Edit

something odd about the number of VT hulls built.

per SVC, the production of VT hulls was two groups of 12 ships, followed by 2 built, production ending in year 145. total hulls produced 26.

most Fed ships were assigned to various fleets on squadrons of 3. (FFG,DD,CL,CA.). there were some classes assigned in smaller numbers per fleet (CC,SC,TT, and various commando variants)

now granted, the VT class served Years before the start of the general war, and not all Federation fleets might have existed that early... but still, its not a number divisible by 3. and if if we ignore the final production group of 2 hulls, its still not a normal distribution.

(at a guess, the 2nd Exploration fleet of survey ships n the new survey area of the off F&E map, didnt get established or assigned until later, some time before the start of the general war.)

if there were fleets stationed at Earth, and on the borders of the Klingons, Romulans, Kzinti, Gorn and Tholia, and a single squadron of three each per fleet, that would account for 18 hulls.

the question is, could the distribution of VT resemble that of the Klingons deployment of the E3 and G2 types?

meaning, 18 hulls assigned to Fleet duty, and 6 or later, 8 hulls assgned to police?

we know that the Kzinti police corvette is very similar to the FF... is it possible that the Federation Police use of the VT had a slightly different design? I know there has been discussion of just what refits the VT might have had (APR/AWR, drone rack, even possibly a year 175 drone refit?)

my point is, the POL had some dedicated cargo boxes (two.) perhaps the police version of the VT substituted a cargo box for the Drone rack... or possibly changed the photon to a drone rack?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 06:40 am: Edit

Jeff, it may be that 3 were assigned to each of the Home, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th Fleets. A couple were assigned to the 2nd Fleet initially.
The remaining scattered around on individual assignments or in pairs in known trouble spots.

Also, the Home and 3rd Fleets may have had 6 assigned with the other Fleets only having 3. The remainder of those being scattered around individually or in pairs.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 08:07 am: Edit

Got my fighter crews screwed up. Regardless, it just reinforces he point that an entire squadron of pretty much any fighter has fewer crew than a single gunboat. Meaning the Federation can lose a "squadron of squadrons" of fighters and fewer people will die than losing a single flotilla of gunboats.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 09:17 am: Edit

26 corvettes = eight squadrons plus maintenance float.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 11:11 am: Edit

Okay, if I might put the STUPIDEST post on this thread...

In a simulator*, replace the photon torpedoes with Sharkhunter Bomb Throwers and face it off against a FRAX Submarine Frigate...


(* I said "In a SIMULATOR!!!")

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 11:21 am: Edit

...

There's nowhere else that it COULD face a Sharkhunter FF.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 11:38 am: Edit

Jeff, I think the Police would use this ship as-is. Being smaller than the Cutter, the 'Vett would out-accelerate (from warp 3.2 to Warp 9+) the Cutter and would match the Orion LR. This could be their "chase car". In that role, it doesn't need cargo.

If the Police were going to add Cargo, I think they would go all-in and and add other stuff, making it a box-match to the POL. (See the SSD that I posted up-topic.)

Personal opinion, but until Y175+ I don't like replacing Photon for Drone. I don't think it's worth it in the long run.


Mike: A "squadron of squadrons" is called a Group or a Wing.


Garth L. Getgen

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 12:49 pm: Edit

Garth: Yeah, but I was intentionally going to the redundancy to stress the scale factor. It really is pretty significant, to be honest.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Makes sense, Mike. Hmmmm ... is it's a squadron squared, does that make it a squaredron??


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 01:12 pm: Edit

From (J10.0): All of the fighter-using empires eventually (Y175 or later) began using so-called "heavy" fighters. These were larger versions of the previous fighter-shuttles, but with more weapons, larger (three-to-four man) crews, and built-in electronic warfare equipment.

From (J14.21) GENERAL: Bombers operate as shuttles (J1.0), fighters (J4.0), and heavy fighters (J10.0) except where noted. They are simply much larger, with more weapons and more resistance to damage. Most medium bombers have a crew of four and most heavy bombers have a crew of six.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 05:17 pm: Edit

so, by the time of the General war, some of these VT flower class corvettes would have been handed down to the National Guard.

At a guess, would the designation change from VT to GVT? would the National Guard status change the weapons at all?

should it?

would it make sense for the GVT to be changed to a national guard ground troop transport? IIRC the National Guard has (as of the start of the General War, Fall year 168), various GCA, GCL, GDD and GFF ships assigned, but no ground transports. we know from Star Fleet History that Federation Major worlds have established colonies, in some cases deployed PDB (planetary Defense Battalions)... would the personel rotate thus needing a transport, or once deployed the PDU personel stranded on a new colony never to return to thier home world?

just asking.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 05:44 pm: Edit

I think the "G" designation is meant to distinguish a class, not a branch of service. If there were YVT in the Early Years then a GVT would be a YVT updated to middle years technology. I think a VT would be a VT regardless of whether it was in Star Fleet or the National Guard.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

Troop Transport for the National Guard:

See (R1.18), (R1.19), (R1.42), (R1.43), (R1.63) (in time of war), (R1.64) (in time of war), (R1.65) (Senior officers), (R1.66) (Senior Officers), (R1.74), (R1.A28), and (R1.A31).

In the Early Years see: (YR1.18) and (YR1.19).

You do not need a warship to move personnel for peacetime troop rotations, and even in wartime a Free Trooper is as fast as a warship. So you also do not need to divert tugs with troop pods for the job, so you do not really need to give the National Guard Corvettes to convert into troop ships. Most major worlds (which would be providing the National Guards) operate merchant marines and can be expected to have a few troop freighters or other units among their national guard ships for the purpose of rotating garrisons or delivering new garrisons to colonies that have reached a level of wealth to be worth the deployment of a PDU or three.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 06:49 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick:

thank you.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 06:55 pm: Edit

Note also that colonies can eventually grow to the point where they recruit and provide their own local defense forces, and that a given PDU may be deploying in part as colonists themselves. But the upshot is that for those planets deemed important enough to garrison, but not with resources sufficient to provide their own adequate defense, there are plenty of assets to move troops where they are needed.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, August 21, 2019 - 09:51 am: Edit

If the Federation sold a Flower-class corvette to the Hydrans, would they refit it with a hellebore cannon?

...

"Hellebore", get it?