In Y182, the IKV Elan (a New Strike Carrier with ZYB Fighters) destroyed a Federation mobile base, delaying for over a year any Federation attempt to attack the Klingon battle station line on the original border. Module R10 (page 11, R3.117) says this was a suicide mission.

Did we ever do a scenario? I couldn't find one, but if you can, tell me.

If we never did one, perhaps you can come up with the order of battle, the mission, the situation, the reason, the circumstances, that Petrick can translate into special rules?

Then somebody can write a fiction story.

The various products of the Star Fleet Universe are full of "hooks" and "seeds" for new scenarios. These historical notes, buried in the craziest of places, describe battles that have never been made into scenarios. Petrick can do that, IF you can give him an idea, a concept, a plot, a story, something for him to get his rules-writing teeth into.

If you cannot think of a scenario idea, and cannot hope to write the tedious special rules, you can still become a published scenario creator. Just help Steve Petrick with a little creative push to show him what special rules he needs to write.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 09:26 pm: Edit

Proposal sent to Petrick with cc: to SVC.

Elan carrier group raids MB (which it destroys) but gets hammered by CVG #2 Zhukov.

Rules proposal: F&E (308.1) GROUP ESCORT DAMAGE SYSTEM (GEDS) converted to SFB.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, April 13, 2012 - 12:52 am: Edit

I am not going to pick a writer before Petrick does the scenario, so no more "I volunteer to write the story" posts. More than one writer is interested. No one writer will get to lock up all of the stories; a writer who shows an interest might be assigned one of these and given a strict deadline for an outline, a draft, and a final story.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Randy Blair:

I have reviewed your concept, and I am not sure I can agree to pitting a CVS group against a CVA group as an interesting scenario. The firepower is so heavily weighted against the CVS group that the Klingons may as well not even show up to play.

I think the scenario should revolve around the Mobile Base (adding in a mobile base, with its special sensors and probable fighter squadron to the CVA group would simply make the situation more untenable for the DWV).

Going from Module G3A, I would agree the the Elan Group would be the Elan (DWV), an AD5, and an AF5, and that the fighters would be Z-YBs. However, given the year and the mission, I would beef up the group with casual fast patrol ships (a maximum of five). Here one would have to discuss the relationship of the PFs (perhaps a pair of Fi-Cons, at least one cargo PF, perhaps two anti-fighter PFs) to the group. All combat PFs would give more firepower, but PFs that would have supported the operations of the group should be considered (Fi-Cons to help with distant strikes and to fetch forward replacement fighters, a cargo PF to bring up stores of drones, chaff packs, and etc., anti-fighter PFs to help defend the group from drone strikes by Federation fighter groups). One could also consider adding an extra escort (as the Federation & Empire rules allow).

And perhaps some or all of the Elan's fighters have megapacks.

Balance (if you created a scenario which used the entire Elan group as given above) could have the AD5 replaced by an ADW, or the AF5 replaced by an FWE, or replace some or all of the PFs with combat types, or delete some of the PFs.

The Federation Mobile base has to be the target of the Elan's "suicidal attack."

At that point, you can for scenario creation purposes, strip the group down. Perhaps only the Elan has made it to the Mobile Base, perhaps with a PF or two, perhaps with fewer than its full complement of fighters (something similar at that point to what happened in the cover scenario for Module R11).

So what is this mobile base? For scenario purposes the mobile base might be shut down as part of being upgraded, and a Tug with two cargo pods is docked to it to do the upgrade. (This at least eliminates the base's special sensors and any fighters from its hangar modules.) If the tug undocks, the base is lost (the tug can attempt to "escape" if the base is destroyed). That, however, would change the focus of the Klingon attack to the Tug, rather than the base. (The tug and its pods have fewer total internals than the six mobile base pods assuming shields are still active.)

So we have a mobile base the Elan must reach and destroy. We might want to skip having any kind of a minefield (I personally have no problems trying to fight my way through a minefield, but some players dislike the tedium of creating a minefield and operating it in a scenario.)

So what seems to be needed is a delaying force (between the Elan and the base), and a reinforcing force (which could be the CVA group, but once it arrives the Elan is done), and very clearly a time limit which forces the Elan to close on the base with minimal delay, accepting damage to get there and leaving no time for, for example, finishing off crippled Federation ships.

The delaying force gives room to play around. Unlikely ships (armed freighters, Corvettes, police cutters, etc.) might be the hastily assembled blocking force or forces (you could run the Elan's charge over several map sheets to allow attrition to run its course and force the Elan player to husband resources for the critical fight at the base).

Perhaps there is a force pursuing the Elan group?

The whole point is that Y182 gives lots of "toys" to play with (the added escort, if taken, might be an FCR).

But the point of the scenario should be the desperate attack on the Mobile Base, not a hopeless duel between a size class 3 carrier group and a size class 2 carrier group.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Sunday, August 12, 2012 - 10:12 pm: Edit

SPP: Well, it *is* a suicide mission, after all.

I do like the idea of a multi map thing, and having a time limit imposed. (i.e. CVA group arrives on map on turn 5, and Elan CVS group has to plow through some minor, but potentially resource draining, defenses before finally waxing the MB)
Time the scenario such that CVA group arrives just in time to see the MB blow up, and destroys Elan in a pursuit battle.
I'm not sure how that can be timed, however, and that scenario might take a real ton of work to make that happen.

The Fed opposing force should be strong enough to kill Elan, but of course a very competent Klingon player should have the ability to save it.

One thing's for sure, if it's a carrier duel, it will be a really LONG scenario. That's probably something to keep in mind as players apparently tend to eschew those. (Not me.)

Maybe a Battle tug with a couple of NCLs instead of the CVA group?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Randy Blair:

Actually, the Elan should pretty much have no chance to survive. Its survival is not, and should not be, part of the Klingon victory conditions, destruction of the Mobile Base is the basis for the Elan winning, and it wins only if the Mobile Base is destroyed, failure to destroy the Mobile Base is defeat. The Elan's victory conditions are something like:

"If the Mobile Base is destroyed, the Klingon player has won irrespective of losses. If the Mobile base is not destroyed, the Federation Player has won.
Further:
If the Mobile Base is undamaged, the Federation has won a Decisive Victory.
If the Mobile base is damaged, the Federation has won a Substantive Victory.
If the Mobile base is crippled, the Federation has won a Tactical Victory.
If the Mobile base has only 25% or fewer of its internal damage points remaining (not counting sensor, scanner, or damage control, but counting excess damage), the Federation has won a Marginal victory.
The Federation Victory level is raised by one if the Elan is captured, e.g., a Tactical Victory becomes a Substantive Victory, however, if the Mobile Base has been destroyed, even if the Elan (or the entire Elan group) has been captured, the Federation player has still lost. The survival of the Mobile Base is the sole determinant of victory or defeat.

You might include a few things to raise the Elan's victory level, i.e., if the Mobile Base is destroyed and XXX (I have no current idea for this, but if the scenario were further developed something might turn up) has also happened the Elan's Victory is an Astounding one.

The point is "suicidal attack," and historically it must have succeeded (the Mobile Base was destroyed), so the player taking the Elan must be in the mode of "I am sacrificing my command for the good of the Empire," and nothing else matters.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 01:16 pm: Edit

SPP: Oh, that makes much more sense.

So, why can't it be a CVS vs. CVA group with those Victory Conditions? The XXX can be, "and a Fed escort is destroyed, is crippled, etc."

Either way, the element that makes the scenario *interesting* is the fact that the Klingon player has zero regard for his own ships' collective safety and must focus on blowing away the MB as its sole objective.
The opposing side MUST be, in order to make this work, overwhelming, right? Or do you think that the CVA group isn't overwhelming enough?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Randy Blair:

The point of a CVA group versus a CVS group is that once the CVA group turns up/arrives, the scenario is over. There is no reason to play from that point. That is writing a

"(SXX.3) Length of Scenario: Scenario continues until Turn #X when overwhelming enemy forces arrive and the surviving Klingon ships which have not disengaged are considered destroyed."

rule.

You are not fighting a duel between the two groups at all. If the Elan group has saved anything of its firepower for the purposes of engaging in a lopsided duel with a dreanought (CVA) led group, that is firepower it should have been using to destroy the base. If the Elan encounters the CVA group on its way to the base, then its mission has failed because a CVA group will almost assuredly overwhelm and wreck a CVS group, leaving little or nothing (assuming the CVS group tried to just pass through the CVA group) to fight the Mobile Base.

You are fixating (it seems to me) on matching a CVS group against a CVA group, and not on the purpose of the scenario that is apparently trying to be created, i.e., a suicidal attack on a Mobile Base.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 03:05 pm: Edit

SPP: Nah, I don't care if it's a CVS vs. CVA group at all, really. I'm just trying to understand how you would make a scenario where one side gets totally annihilated but wins if they kill a key unit. Wouldn't you, by definition need to *have* one side that's capable of annihilating the other side in the first place?
I must be missing something!

I said before, why not a Battle Tug and some NCLs? So, I'm not married to the CVA slant.
If Elan *must* die AND the only chance the Klingons have to win is to curb stomp the MB, how does that work without an overwhelming force arriving on turn X? In reality, if Elan smokes the MB BEFORE turn X, doesn't it give it a chance to potentially escape?

By Patrick Sledge (Decius) on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Perhaps the best way to handle it would be to have reinforcements for the base trickle in, to simulate the base calling for help and units racing in at best speed as they're able. That way there isn't a defined point where the Fed presses the 'you lose' button, but instead a fight that steadily turns further against the Klingon... and the more time the Klingon devotes to swatting ships as they trickle in, the better chance the base has of surviving (as successive waves of reinforcement will be heavier)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Randy Blair:

It is a question of whether or not you want the Elan group to have the option of tactical decisions, or to simply be destroyed. If there is a CVA group sitting on top of the Mobile Base, the Elan group is simply destroyed and would be likely to score any significant damage to the Mobile Base at all.

So you can come to the scenario from several different angles.

One is to just have the Mobile Base versus some remnant fo the Elan group which reached the base. The Mobile base would have to have some defending units that the Elan could just swat aside if it had time, but after a few turns reinforcements will arrive.

Another is to have the Elan group start at full strength and have a series of blocking forces it must get past. The more strength it has for the final assault, the faster it can destroy the base, but reinforcements will show up.

Now, reinforcements do not have to be "overwhelming" (a whole CVA group), but can simply build in strength until the Elan goes down.

But there is no real reason to even suggest having the Federation player go through all the math to create a CVA group that he is not going to get to play with, again, if the CVA group appears on the map, the scenario is over, there is no point for the Klingon player to even fire a "shot for the honor of the flag."

As to a chance for the Elan to escape. No. There is no escape. No matter the outcome, for it to be suicidal, the damage to the Elan has to be such that there is no getting back to friendly lines, otherwise it is just a normal "raid".

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 10:29 am: Edit

SPP: Ok, so instead of a huge force all at once, have it appear over time to wear Elan forces down. Makes sense. Reminds me of that Klingon Swarm scenario (I don't have my stuff with me, so I can't provide a scenario number).

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 05:46 pm: Edit

If you want it to be a true suicide mission, then you need to have both an approach battle (so there are tactics and decisions to be made on the way in) and a time limit (after turn #X, all surviving Klingons die). Otherwise, there is always a chance that the Elan will survive.

I recommend disguising it. First, the time limit says that at the end of Turn #X, any Klingon ship that is still on the map is considered destroyed, and the Klingon ships may only exit from the same map edge they started from. This way it is not *obviously* a suicide mission. But, then make sure that the Elan cannot get from the entry map edge, to the base, destroy the base, and back again in the time limit. (This pretty much assumes a multi-map approach battle.)

This way it isn't obviously a suicide mission, as the Elan can always run away without accomplishing the objective. But, if they do accomplish the objective, they can't get away. But, only someone really paying attention will realize it is a suicide mission.

Not sure if that's what you're going for, but it could be one approach.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 06:12 pm: Edit

Mike West:

Honestly, if you are creating the scenario for your local game group for a given weekend, or for a convention to entertain players (at risk of angering them) you could go that route. But a published scenario in a product is pretty much there for both sides to read. And both sides if they are gamers at all are going to want to read the scenario set up and special rules so that they can consider (for example) what to spend their Commander's Option points on. (You might forego buying all the T-bombs you can to buy the maximum number of boarding parties if boarding actions or ground combat are called for.) Or to determine what "special drones" you want to have. And your Klingon player (in this case) is going to know from the victory conditions that he can only win if the base is destroyed, and he is going to look at the opposing forces and when they arrive. And if he has even minimal competence, he is going to know how "unbalanced" the scenario is, i.e., that he has almost no chance of "surviving to see the next dawn." At that point, he is likely to just consider the scenario fundamentally flawed and unplayable and refuse to play at all. So you would, in a published scenario, need to flat out tell him "you are going to die, but it is for the good of the Empire."

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 06:23 pm: Edit

No one I know would want to play an "impossible" scenario, so why bother publishing it? However, if you can "win," even if you are completely destroyed in the process, there will be some willing to try it.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 06:32 pm: Edit

Kosta Michalopoulos:

And that is the discuss point of the scenario. The mission is to destroy the mobile base, and your entire force is expendable if you accomplish that goal. You win. If you win and survive (not as a prisoner, but escape back to the Empire's lines on at least one of your ships), ah but that would be the stuff of legend! But the mobile base must be destroyed for the good of the empire even if you and all of those you command join "The Black Fleet."

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Suicide mission is NOT impossible. just very difficult to survive.

So,

Enters 30 hexes away in direction A

Mobile base with couple pods, plus a small minefield package, a POL, repair ship, and 2 small freighters.
Feds get random reinforcements every turn.
1- DD 30 hexes away from direction A
2- FFB + FFG 30 hexes away direction B
3- NCL 00 hexes away in direction C
4- Squadron of 6 F101M fighters 30 hexes in direction D
5- something else... direction E
6- Something else direction F

May not disengage until the base brews up and must do so from the edge they entered.

So it's not AUTOMATICALLY a darn suicide mission. Just one with the most potential for glory in the Black Fleet.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 08:51 pm: Edit

What if the target wasn't defended by the Federation, but instead defended by Kzintis? My reason for suggesting this is, in module C3, section R12.1J, the commander of the Hegemony, Admiral Cat Who Sleeps with Dogs behaved in a peculiar manner that only became obvious when the Usurper's War of Return blew up in the Patriarchs face.

What if this suicide mission by the Klingons was directed against an MB "Protected" by the Hegemony, and the Klingons in question were told that there was every possibility of it being a one-way mission. Meanwhile, Admiral Cat Who Sleeps with Dogs was under orders from the Count to preserve the Hegemony at all costs, which he interpreted as only using his attrition units to defend the MB (and, indeed, kept his battle group at range).

Also, if the Klingons were desperate enough, what about a scenario where their own losses are irrelevant? IIRC, there're already Seltorian and Qixa/Sigvirion scenarios like that.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 11:48 pm: Edit

Michael Grafton:

You need to consider the damage output of the attack force versus the damage resistance of the base. (Off the top of my head, about 224 damage points plus another 24 damage points each time you have to punch a new shield, that is assuming four cargo pods and two augmentation modules.)

I am fairly certain that the Klingon carrier group will destroy the base and and withdraw before significant force arrives on your schedule.

It will just run straight to range zero and keep firing till the base goes down and the survivors will then try to run.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, October 10, 2019 - 10:54 am: Edit

To be fair, Mike did specify a small mine field which ***In Theory*** should delay the klingon carrier force somewhat. The Fed DD on turn 1 will likely die, but would divert some of the Klingon attack while th base digs in to its defenses.

Unless the POL, repair ship, and the two small freighters are docked to the base and lending power to it, I just do not see those ships adding much to the defenses.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, October 10, 2019 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

"Unless the POL, repair ship, and the two small freighters are docked to the base and lending power to it, I just do not see those ships adding much to the defenses."

Really? You really do not think that the docked repair freighter generating 10 repair points a turn is adding much to the defense?

Each turn it can fix five shield boxes, or all of the bases phaser-3s and one phaser-1 as phaser-3s, or all of the base's batteries and two hull/cargo boxes or a phaser-3, or all of the base's hull and cargo (10 boxes). The point is that every turn the repair freighter, if you do not interfere with it, is repairing from 5 to 10 boxes. Over four turns that can be from 20 to 40 boxes more that you have to destroy before the base will brew up. And that is just on the base itself. With four cargo pods, you are doubtless going to be hitting a lot of "cargo" (dice roll "7" on the DAC), which means it will most likely be repairing 10 cargo boxes a turn the turn after you start damaging the base. Over four turns that is 40 more damage points you have to score. Over eight turns it is 80 more damage points you have to score to destroy the base.

You really do not see that adding much to the defenses?

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, October 10, 2019 - 05:53 pm: Edit

By the way, the 6 forces were for a D6 die roll.

And the directions can be random too.

As for just running up and parking, I would think the base would weasel early and often. Which makes seekers much less potent.

And anyway, balance is just a matter of adding or subtracting.

Maybe there is an approach battle? Where the CVS battle group has to punch through a light screen?

So it's a two parter?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, October 10, 2019 - 06:43 pm: Edit

Michael Grafton:

Mobile base has four (4) shuttles.

11 Z-YB fighters can launch 44 type-I drones (two a turn), and 24 (adding in the EWF) type-VI drones, or all of them in a single turn if they are remotely controlled. An AD5 can launch four a turn, an FWE can launch three a turn (these might all be type-IVs), and the basic three ship carrier group (DWV, AD5, FWE) can launch six scatter packs for 36 drones.

The carrier group's Range Zero alpha strike is (on average) 40 points (4 disruptors), 91 points (14 phaser-1s), 11 (two phaser-2s), and 23 (six phaser-3s) for a total of 165 points. This does not include any fire from phasers on fighters, and is only the phasers able to fire through the #1 shields (meaning there are three phaser-2s and eight phaser-3s not included in the total).

A mobile base with four standard 25 box cargo pods and two standard 12 box cargo modules (the only thing larger would be a heavy power module) would be destroyed outright by 219 damage points (would be a little more if the shield hit was reinforced).

So if the group retains enough firepower for a second shot after the first one, to score 75 damage points (possibly a point or a few more if the base can scrape up any power after powering its shields after the previous hit), it will be destroyed and no drone strikes are required. And note that you need 75 if you have to fire through a second shield, if the base's rotation rate is going to bring the same shield you already downed back around, you only need 51 damage points to kill it.

With only four shuttles available for wild weasels, at close range, it is pretty easy to time the drone launches to draw weasels (Six drones, i.e., two each from three fighters, will destroy a shield and do 48 points of damage. Six more will do the same for three more fighters, getting to 96 points of damage. Six more from the third group of three fighters, and you are at 144 points of damage. Another six, the last two fighters and one maybe type-IV from a ship drone rack, and you are at 192 points of damage. If you did not kick out wild weasels in response to each one, you are in a mess, and if you did, well I still have those scatter packs and rack launched drones. And if the fighters are remotely controlled, two fighters can launch eight type-I drones and two type-VI drones. You can wild weasel the first eight fighters, but the last four will then hit you with 12 type-I drones and eight type-VI drones for 112 points of damage, plus the rack launched drones.

Be it noted, I am not saying you are wrong to access wild weasels, I am trying to point out that they are not a panacea in this case. Drone launches can (and should) be spaced out because of the wild weasels, but the carrier group also packs a lot of firepower and can dismantle the base pretty readily with either direct firepower or drones.

The trick is in part to force the Klingons to divert enough firepower, both seeking weapons and non-seeking weapons that it fails to score that necessary 219 plus points of damage.

NOTE: I know earlier I discussed the base being destroyed by 224 points of damage, but I was at home away from my books and working from the top of my head and could not quite remember all of the internals on a mobile base. My brain is not as sharp and retentive as it once was (said in all honesty and humility).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, October 10, 2019 - 07:11 pm: Edit

By the way, I hate to say this, but it is a "suicide mission," and at Range Zero the Klingon ships have an explosion value of 48 points if they are destroyed, which is something the defenders have to keep in mind.

Also bear in mind as discussed earlier we do not know in designing the set up if this is just a DWV, AD5, FWE. It might have (as others have noted) an extra escort (for purposes of this particular mission profile I tend to assume not) or is accompanied by any other Klingon ship at all. (The reference to it being a "suicide mission" could mean that it was actually a Klingon task force built around the DWV group, and the DWV commander took his one ship in for the final killing strike, while other Klingon ships were able to fight their way back to Klngon lines). But also by this point in the way it would not be unusual for the Klingons to have mech-links and a few casual PFs, either support types (cargo, Fi-con) to help keep the group at the front rather than running to the rear for replacement fighters and stores, or combat types to increase its direct combat value, or a little of both. And maybe not all of the ships had the mech-link refit.

The only thing that seems to be truly written in stone background wise (as I understand it) is that the base and the DWV were lost. That the whole group was lost may just be a matter of interpretation.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Thursday, October 10, 2019 - 11:01 pm: Edit

... and a voice called out from the agonizer booth, "Maybe the Klingon Commander figured out the only way to survive was to WYN..."