Archive through October 17, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: Petrick's Scenario Workshop:
IKV Elan, Suicide Mission:
Archive through October 17, 2019
Steve Petrick:
As I understand it, the IKV Elan is expendable.
The mobile base is just a damage sponge, and (if I recall correctly), the survival or destruction of the mobile base is the sole determinant of victory or defeat.
Your post above correctly identifies the passive value of the repair capacity of the repair ship, but my point was referencing the direct combat ability of the POL, repair ship and two freighters to influence the scenario.
(I.e, a negligible factor at best.)
I have not gotten the map, counters and SSDs out to play the scenario yet, but my "feeling" is that the relative combat factors of the two sides are not equal.
If I were commanding the Klingon forces, I would seek a tactic that kills the mobile base as quickly as possible and then stage a fighting retreat.
I just do not know (yet) if the klinks have the raw power to accomplish the mission that fast.
Jeff Wile:
The point pretty much is to create a scenario, as currently there is not one. Everything to this point is discussion.
The only things, literally, known for certain is that there is a Federation mobile base (but not what pods or modules it has) and a Klingon DWV (we do not know if there are ecorts, other non escorts, PFs, or even if it has fighters or is simply lunging at the base in a final suicidal rush).
Everything else is discussion about what the scenario should be to be interesting to play as a "hitorical scenario."
Steve Petrick:
You (and others participating in the discussion) keep talking about the scenario, but isn't it really more of a mini campaign?
Mike West brought up the idea of an approach battle, the center piece of the whole thing is the direct attack on the mobile base, and the third part is the survivors retreat.
Just trying to suggest that cramming all of it into one huge complicated battle is getting bogged down in the details.
The approach battle needs to be included as that gives the Federation forces the tantalizing possibility that winning the approach battle might prevent the IKV Elan group from even being able to reach the mobile base.
Plus, any damage to the carrier, escorts or fighter group only makes the direct attack on the mobile base more challenging.
The retreat from the main battle is where the real bragging rights are.... any decent commander of a DWV group should be able to destroy an undefended MB. It's the associated defenses that make the battle more challenging.
(That, and living to brag about it.)
Jeff, I don't see that it needs to be a mini-campaign, either there are substantial defenses with the base or arriving on map faster than the Elan can destroy the base and withdraw, or there is no suicide mission.
Put the base on the map, give it an inadequate guard to stop the Elan + whatever, give it incoming reinforcements sufficient that there's substantial time pressure and it's clear that you can't really hope to destroy the base and escape unless the Feds completely screw up.
I'm not seeing how the battle at the base can reasonably be anything LESS complicated than that, so adding an approach battle or mini-campaign is pure added complexity to that basic structure.
A minicampaign requires that we either have the Elan having time for normal between battle repairs (at which point there's a real question what the Feds are doing with all that time), or that we define a bunch of campaign specific rules for what can reasonably be a scenario.
Thus IMAO the single scenario structure is the simplest, even if it's a complicated battle, it's still one battle. We don't need a separate approach battle even if it's been suggested by someone and we certainly don't need a separate attempt to escape battle when the entire scenario setup is supposed to say, "You almost certainly can't do that, and you've already won or lost before a single counter is placed on the map, so why are we bothering?"
I think for interest, a mini campaign would be best. Just so you can't DEPEND on a certain group of forces.
So:
Initial strike to destroy small scout with a frigate. So the Feds can't track you very well. You can zip in and zork them and take some damage or do it safely over more turns.
Zip over to drive through a SPARSE "Blackfoot pass" minefield defended by a F101 group. Every turn here advances the "clock" for the reinforcements the MB gets.
Attack the MB which has (for example) 2 packages of mines at range 5 (whatever). The MB has in attendance a Small Minelaying freighter (it's slowly putting in the minefield), POL, small freighter and repair freighter.
Elan is a Klingon DWV (a F6V? or F5WV?) with escorts. Does it automatically get an AD5? I didn't know any carrier got an escort which is bigger than the Carrier itself. I presume we can mess with the escort group to balance this out.
Maybe some wacky terrain for the first sub scenario. I vote for "prairie dog space!"
Michael Grafton:
Elan is a DWV. a carrier version of a D5W New Heavy Cruiser. Normal escort group for a DWV from Y180 would be an AD5 and one of an F6E, FWE, or F5E. Fighters would normally be a squadron of 12 Z-YBs.
My thoughts as they are on said mission.
DWV Elan strike group starts on one map attacking the mobile base and its few defending units. Then after destroying the mobile base runs for home. The DWV Elan strike group must exit board edge such and such after crossing board 2. There of course must be a reason why after the strike the ELan would not just run at disengagement speed.
You could then Roll for the intercepting force from a set of pre set forces. Or Allow the Federation player so many BPV points to buy the intercepting force. The number of turns it takes to kill the Mobile base adds to the Weapon status of the intercepting force and could even add more ships are BPV points to the intercepting force.
So turn 1 Elan Strike group attacks the Mobile base. Turn three the base goes down and Elan strike group heads for home.
The Federation Intercepting force starts on board edge XX map two. Weapon status 3 speed max.
Can the Elan strike group escape? How much did they lose taking out the base? How fast did they take out the base?
Base commander you are going to die how long can you delay your death so the intercepting force can destroy the Klingons.
Elan you are going to die. Can you get enough Victory points to win. It is a good day to die for the glory of the empire.
Gregory S. Flusche:
Taking out the base is simple math if it is just the base. You would have to define the base more narrowly. (What pods, what modules, are they hangar bay modules with a squadron of defending fighters, does it have two "light battle Pods" so that as it rotates their photons and phasers come into arc?) I have already noted how much damage the Klingons can do with just direct fire weapons at Range Zero (if there are no distractions, the base goes down on Impulse #8 of Turn #X+1, Turn #X being when the Klingons got to Range Zero). If they can manage their drone fire, the Base goes down on Turn #X (it has a maximum of four wild weasels and pretty limited counter drone defenses otherwise if there are no other defensive assets).
Now, sure, things can be more complex. The Base has special sensors and can do some things with them, but it only (by itself) generates 10 points of power and needs half of that for Shields, Fire Control, and Life Support (Life Support costs 2 for this base). If it powered both channels it would only have three points of power to use. But holding four wild weasels takes four points of power. You see the problem?
To be honest, part of developing a scenario is devising a compelling story.
For the IKV Elan to heroically sacrifice itself in killing the mobile base, there must, imo, be a reason why the sacrifice is justified.
If there is not a strategic issue related to the location of the mobile base, what reason raises the value of destroying this particular mobile base? Why this MB is so much more important than the other mobile bases the alliance have in place?
Could it be a commercial convoy route? Does it block access to a strategic raw material production area? Will the ship yards stop producing warships because the federation is in a position to intercept the ore carriers?
Or does it separate the capital from a significant portion of the empire? Does it occupy the last shipping route to the Klingon home world from the rest of the empire?
Just saying that whatever compelling reason you choose has to be pretty significant.
There are so many problems. All i was putting out was a basic plan. The base should be relatively easy to take out in a two are three turns. As i understand the history. The base was destroyed and the Elan was destroyed as well. My feelings are it was caught and destroyed by a intercepting force as it tried to return to Klingon held space.
What those forces were is unknown. As well as the strength of the base defenses. If You gave the Federation player = BPV to the klingon force and split into two parts the base and the intercepting force. The Elan would win and escape. So the base defenses being say 1/2 or 3/4 of the Klingon BPV. Then the Federation intercepting force being from 1 and 1/2 to twice the BPV of the Klingon force. You could even have the Federation player decide on base 1/2 klingon BPV and add the 1/2 to the Intercepting force. The intercepting force being = to the klingon force. Play balance is hard to get right.
Vandor:
The problem is intent.
If the IKV Elan group was expecting to easily take out the mobile base, then the pre mission planning should have at least tried to determine if there were a force of ships near by that could respond to the attack.
If your intercepting force was unknown to the Klingon high command, then you need a rationale for why a force strong enough to destroy the Elan carrier group "just happened " to in a position close enough to react to the attack on the Mobile base.
More than that, you need to explain what their mission was that put them so close to the mobile base, but not AT the base.
If the reason the base had to be destroyed was because of its strategic location, then there can not be any other bases close by because then there isn't a need for the mobile base in the first place.
Thinking about this some more, what if the reason this mobile base was important was because it was a logistics node supporting an alliance offensive?
The Freighter and cargo pods docked at the base filled with all manner of war supplies? Crated fighters and bombers, combat rations, support gear for ground troops (crated trucks, tanks, APC, combat engineer supplies, medical supplies, weapons, fuel etc...)
Destruction of the base and pods could delay the offensive by six months or more.
Better yet, if the IKV Elan group knew that it was a supply depot location, but the intelligence indicated no near by a Federation guard forces or combat units near by?
How would the Klingons engage if they were convinced it was just a mobile base with 2 small freighters, a repair ship and a police ship?
Imagine the surprise when it turns out that there was a double weight battle pod present waiting to be picked up by its tug? Or if the mobile base had three fighter hanger pods with the fighters present?
Or the pod turned out to be a CVA pod? Also waiting for its tug? 24 F-18B fighters fully combat loaded and ready to launch?
It would turn out to be a reverse turkey shoot scenario...only this time the turkey s are armed!
I see this as something like: IKV Elan, escorts, a D5W, and a D5S enter 30 hexes from the base. The base has a single package minefield, a fighter pod (3 F111 fighters) and cargo pod and a single battle frigate. If the Klingons charge in at speed 30, they can kill the base early on turn 2, but will take heavy damage from ignoring the mines, frigate, and fighters, so that probably won't happen. On impulse 1 of turn two a federation CV and escorts enters from the Klingon's entry edge (they were pursuing and didn't catch up in time) and a federation CX, CFS, and NCF enter from the opposite edge (a fast raiding squadron that was headed for the front when called by the CV group). The Klingons can only disengage by exiting on the edge they came in on.
For a large, multiship scenario it's over very quickly, by the end of turn 3 it should be almost entirely over except the last couple of explosions on turn 4, the Klingons suffer a decisive defeat if they don't destroy the base, otherwise it's modified victory conditions based on damage to the ships with a small fed bonus for pulling crew off the base alive.
The klingons need to be able to kill the base sometime fairly early in turn 2. I believe the described force should do it. But by the time they get turned around and moving the CV group has its fighters out and is between them and safety with a fast squadron coming hard. The Klingons may well be able to get some of the escorts out, but I can't see the Elan surviving (AKA a suicide mission).
If the victory conditions are set correctly, both sides get the fun of blowing up a seriously outclassed enemy force in about two turns of combat, and both sides get to see if they can maneuver so as to inflict some damage or save something from the wreckage and the victory conditions mean that the winner depends on player skill and/or the dice.
Uhm, guys, the suggestion to create this scenario is based on a "scenario seed" that was planted in the ship description of the DWV class of ships (R3.117) in Module R10. This is all there is and what is being worked from:
"The Sangfroid and Elan had impressive careers in the fleet, and the suicidal attack of the Elan on a Federation mobile base (R1.24-2) in Y182 was significant in delaying the Alliance assault on the Empire."
From someone who no longer has a rule book or SSDs or any modules:
A) Fed MB hasn't had time to set up mine field, it is new in the area and this is why Klingons want to wipe it out (for the aforementioned reasons listed above).
B) For the Klinks, it is a suicide mission and only the minimal escorts the ship class requires is all it gets (within YIS parameters)
C) During the battle, the MB calls for help. So, turn one there is the call however any chance of reinforcement should be on the end of turn 2.
D) A couple people already suggested a reinforcement die chart . . . all of that is subjective. But I have a tweak.
D.1) There should always be a 1 in 6 chance that a reinforcement roll could result in no reinforcement.
D.2) Totally optional, secretly, the MB knows 6 turns in advance which ships are available on each turn (communications are much faster than warp, believe it or not). So, at the end of turn 1, he rolls for turn 7 reinforcement, and so forth (TOTALLY OPTIONAL)
D.3) EOT 2, the first reinforcement ship comes in hot and loaded.
D.4) EOT 3, the next ship comes in hot and loaded HOWEVER there is a 1 in 6 chance that there is damage because the captain ordered, "Then, Shake her apart!" (see E for damage ideas below)
D.5) EOT 4, the next ship (if any) comes in hot and loaded but with a 2 in 6 chance that there is damage because of the dire need to save the MB.
D.6) EOT 5 and beyond, the next ship (if any) comes in hot and loaded but with a 3 in 6 chance that there is damage because of the dire need to save the MB.
E) Each ship that comes in as reinforcement (except the first if there is one) is subject to excessive speed problems (if any) in order to save the MB because of its important strategic implications. Possible ideas are (note, these are problems with warp propulsion and hull integrity due to their rapid speed and its duration* since call was asked for help). These are just suggestions to complete my submission.
E.1) Loss of some warp, depending on *duration
E.2) Some internal damage, based on *duration
E.3) Combination of both, based on *duration
E.4) Loss of excess damage, based on *duration, due to the exceptional stress the captain (like Sulu) ordered when he said, "Well, Shake her apart!"
E.5) Actually, I can't think of anything else.
The point is, at the end of Turn 2 (and maybe a mine field might by good), the reinforcements will come in (in one condition or another). The MB probably will be wiped out but are the reinforcements enough to avenge the MB?
Just some guy without any references whatsoever.
Maybe this Fed mobile base includes a scout pod....2 MB pods, 2 cargo pods, 1 scout pod, 1 self-defense pod, plus a power module and a heavy fighter module (6xF111). The position of the MB and its heavy EW suite is ideal for the Federation to monitor Klingon movements, movements that the Klingons absolutely must keep secret in order to properly respond to Fed attacks.
As the initial opening move of a Klingon counter-offensive, the Elan is sent to destroy this base at all costs.
"(R1.24A) CONSTRUCTION: The mobile base consists of two special MB pods (on the SSD) and four others, which are usually cargo pods. (No more than one or two could be other types of pods, most often self-defense or repair, but any type of pod can be used except as noted below. To function as a supply point, there must be at least two cargo pods as part of the structure. To function as a repair point, it must have at least one repair pod or two repair modules as part of the structure.)"
If the base is a threat to the Klingons, it must be operational as a supply and repair point. That takes up three pod positions (two cargo and one repair). You could use a power module and a heavy fighter module as the augmentation modules, but given the overall shortage of F-111s, I suspect the fighters would be F-101Bs.
Given the historical background of Federation Scout Pods, I tend to doubt that there would be one for this base.
"The basic design of this pod (and two pods under construction when the Klingons invaded) was modified to create the light battle pod (R2.58) to be used by the light tactical transport (R2.38)."
And as the base already has two special sensors of its own plus a power augmentation module (per John Sickels proposal), I see little point in adding a scout pod, but that is just me.
Fair enough. So this base would be 2xMB, 2xCargo, 1xRepair, 1xself-defense, 1xpower module, 1xheavy fighter module (F101B).
Additional defense for the base could perhaps be provided by a war destroyer squadron (DWC, DW, DWD) that begins the scenario on map, protecting the base directly. That way the Elan can't just come in and blow the base up without much of a fight on turn 1 then run away.
Fed reinforcements could start arriving on Turn 2.
The general idea is that the "most likely" outcome is the destruction of both the Elan and the base, but there should be sufficient flexibility built into the scenario design that this outcome, while likely, is not automatic.
Miss-post deleted.
Given the date (Y182), perhaps one of the Fed reinforcements is an X-cruiser on its first mission. That would provide a challenge.
A mini campaign was mentioned. I don't know if this is any good (it probably isn't), but might this be a potential set up?
Scenario 1: eliminating a listening outpost, perhaps?
Imagine this; there's a GWS that had been a listening outpost before the start of the General War. At the start of the war, it was one of those outposts that was evacuated as something that the Federation knew it wouldn't be able to protect against the initial onslaught. For their part, the Klingons knew it was there, but figured on perhaps using it themselves when the Alliance pushed them back that far. However, for whatever reason, they never did occupy it.
On the other hand, the Federation was able to sneak personnel back to it when they reclaimed the area of space where it is. Due to its long abandonment, there was some question among Star Fleet Intelligence as to whether the Klingons, during their time of occupying that region of space, were even aware of its existence.
With that sort of mistake failure, Star Fleet Intelligence, the folks who run the outpost, have been relying on this mistake as its primary defense; something the Klingons are choosing to take advantage of.
Their plan is to destroy it to encourage the Alliance to think that its area is the main target of a desperate, last ditch effort to delay the inevitable. The hole in coverage of the contested area from its loss is meant as the clue.
Meanwhile, the logistics point, the aforementioned MB, is far enough away that the Elan (and escorts) will need to do a pretty prolonged high speed run to get to their REAL target; something possible, but risky.
However, for Scenario 1 in this mini-campaign, there's a nearby Federation ship. Not much, but once the border outpost comes to recognize that they ARE the probable target of a raid, they're screaming for help, so the ship responds.
As I'm imagining this, odds are it'll be a cakewalk for the Klingons, but if the Klingons suffer damage (or loss of fighters), how much will they be able to repair before they reach their real target? What if the fighter losses exceed the spare storage on the carrier? What about expenditures of drones/antidrones and the limits of supplies for later scenarios?
Scenario 2: the fighters, withOUT the ships, trying to pound the MB. It has its active defenders; possibly an NCL, maybe a DWV. Certainly it has its own fighters.
Scenario 3: The fighters were tracked and an intercepting force jumps Elan and her escorts before the fighters return. The carrier groups options are limited; due to their own range from the Klingon logistics network, they've had to launch fighters at a pretty hefty range from the target and as such have to remain in a particular box in space if they're to have any hope of recovering them.
Scenario 4: Unable to exceed a certain speed due to lack of fuel, Elan and her escorts find themselves under attack by a small Federation Rapid Response force as they're trying to make their way back to Klingon space. The speed can be higher if they violated orders and abandoned the fighters in Scenario 3, or they can have some rearmed fighters for a stronger defense if they followed orders...
(This isn't meant as a real proposal; just the nattering ramblings of someone who doesn't know real military strategy... 
)
One of the problems with a campaign of the above nature is that players have to play scenarios where they know they are doomed.
How much fun is the Federation player going to have in Scenario #1? But if they are able to put up any significant resistance at all, the whole campaign falls apart because the DWV group will be weakened/spent too many resources to destroy the base, so the campaign ends right there.
SPP, that's the reason why I ended wth "(Ths isn't meant as a real proposal..."
Then again, scenario T6S2.0; Out of the Blocks (Module C1), where a Federation task force of 1xFFG and 3xPOL+ face an Orion task force with three Salvage Cruisers, one of which is a PFT, A BR, a CR, a DBR, two LRs, and more (Slavers, etc.) is another scenario that's part of a mini campaign where, if played separately, ain't gonna be a whole lotta fun for the Federation player.
However, another idea hit me after my last posting (I know; "Uh-oh!" ). While I suspect the ISF would NEVER go for it, what if the ship/group meant to "Take out" the listening outpost consisted of two ISF ships that had been pressed into emergency DSF work type service? In this case, I'm thinking a G4 with a G6 as her "Bodyguard."
The idea is that the Klingons would use the ISF forces to attack, hopefully tricking the Federation into thinking that the Klingons regarded the listening outpost as something for law enforcement to deal with, and as such, they might (IhopeIhopeIhope) expect the DWV group to remain in Klingon space.
They might also intend that the Federation interpretation of the "Intervention by the nearby roaming (patrolling) DWV group" would be as much a chance as was the Federation reinforcements.
Again, though, I know absolutely zilch, zero, nada about intelligence and counterintelligence type operations, aside from my obvious lack of intelligence, and my wild rantings run counter to human intelligence...
We know from the 11:31 AM post that SPP made this morning that "that in y182 was significant in delaying the Alliance Assault on the Empire."
It's only suicidal if the captain of the Elan KNEW that the attack would cost him his ship and the lives of his crew... but if in making that attack, the Empire would be served.
That is in the same class as Tennyson and his "charge of the light brigade."
Having the Elan destroyed by forces that they did not know about, or was surprised by, reduces the sacrifice made by the Elan, pressing home an attack against superior forces.
This should be an "epic" scenario of a hero ship and the captains devotion to the Empire... not a repeat of Custer at all he little big horn.
Custer held his enemy in contempt. If he really understood the danger, it is likely he would have made other arrangement before the battle instead of sending messages requesting more ammunition after the battle started.
One option to beef up the base's defense would be to put it in orbit around a planet and put something on the ground and/or some DEFSATs up. If it was a critical installation sticking it around an airless planet with some fighters and phasers (preferably on an airless planet to get the fighters up quickly and not degrade the phaser fire) would make sense.
You could also add in a before the scenario pre-programmed Klingon drone bombardment attack from another ship. This lets you add more to the Fed side to deal with those drones without having to beef the Klingons up and gives the Feds two avenues of attack to defend against as opposed to one death charge.
Another possibility is the Klingons are strung out from trying to get to the base without being intercepted and their force arrives with variable arrival times so they start harassing the base but want to build up a critical mass before attacking.