Archive through October 21, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
New Ships:
R08: ORION PROPOSALS:
Local defense export gunboats:
Archive through October 21, 2019
Mike West, with an enthusiasm for a potential Module K2, has proposed a number of variant gunboats. For your consideration, I'd like to propose one as well; a local defense gunboat of Orion design to be used as planetary defense of independent worlds within the Federation.
Normally, planetary defenses that use gunboats use the local gunboats. Klingon subject planets use the G-1s, Romulan worlds use Centurions, and so on, but with the Federation having their opposition to gunboats as a defensive unit, they don't have any of their own for member worlds to use; member worlds whose leadership/government might not have the same opposition to gunboats as the Federation.
That might make for a niche market for Orions to exploit, and we ALL know how willing Orion merchants are to exploit a market... 
The biggest potential problem would be the unwillingness of the Federation bureaucrats to allow full power Buccaneers in civilian hands. To that end, I'm proposing a type of "Downrated" Buccaneer; the 360 Ph-1 is downgraded to a Ph-2, the only options for the mounts are Ph-2s, type A Drone racks, and type E Drone racks, and the boats are unable to use WBPs (much like Workboats).
Obviously, if the Federation Council were to make a blanket declaration outlawing independent worlds within the Federation from using gunboats PERIOD, then this whole thing is moot.
For the Orions, it might also represent an option for markets in worlds in the Neutral Zones as well.
This is known as the "export Buccaneer". It is pretty much an auto-reject.
1) Whether you intended it this way or not, this is a "let's officially get the Feds some gunboats" proposal. These get rejected automatically.
2) This would be a huge security issue for the Feds. Right now, if the Feds see a Buccaneer, they kill it. If this existed, then they wouldn't know whether to kill it or not. There is no way the Federation would allow any "export" or "civilian" Buccaneers to operate within its own territory.
(The eventual workboat was different because it is easily distinguishable from a "real" Buccaneer. These would not be.)
One of the big elements of why the Workboat is acceptable in Federation space is its lack of the stealth bonus that every other Orion ship has.
It's also something (along with ADDs and Plasma type variants) that completely slipped my alleged mind with the initial proposal.
These buggers would NOT have the Stealth Coating/+2 ECM benefit and would be easily distinguishable from pirate vessels.
Another thing about them that's important to state is that they're not intended as Federation ships/boats. While they do operate from Federation affiliated worlds, they are planet based, are intended solely for local defense, and are NOT a part of Star Fleet.
As I was picturing them, they are, like Bombers, intended to operate exclusively from planetary bases and, like Skiffs, aren't even able to dock to PF Mech-Links...
If there's a way to present that in SFB rules...
Overall, maybe they are a bad idea that belongs in the trash can, but aren't those discussions the reason why the boards exist?
Anyway, getting back to things I completely missed in the original proposal...
Plasma variants.
TBH, I've always had trouble fighting plasma armed opponents and may tend to overstate their hitting power, but I do think that the hitting power of a Plasma-F or a couple Plasma-D torpedoes is enough to warrant "Civil Defense Gunboats" armed with them to be regarded as the security issue you brought up. As such, I would suggest that they not be allowed.
I also worry about the potential of three Type IV drones from one. To "Correct" that problem, what about limiting the boat to only having TWO drone racks in the Option mounts?
I was musing about that over lunch. Two Drone racks and one Phaser, two Phasers and one Drone rack, or having one of the three boxes void, with the boat having two Phasers or two Drone racks seems like enough of a limit to keep the ship from being regarded as too much of a security issue.
(BTW: I also see ADDs as counting against the Drone rack limit for them.)
Would these limits, regardless of how artificial they seem, be enough for the Federation to allow them to be deployed? Let's toss around the Cold Ones and discuss them.
Assuming ADB would ever accept this (as Mike West points out, it's likely to be seen as an attempt to give the Fed's a "real" PF (as opposed to the "conjectural" Thunderbolt))*, a simpler solution would be to do away with the option mounts entirely and just define the weapon suite.
* I'm personally skeptical that Jeffrey Anderson's suggestion that these not have the "stealth coating" would be sufficient mitigation. Preventing them from docking to mech links... might be sufficient. We'll have to wait until SVC and SPP weigh in.
Even if they are modified Starfleet Intelligence is probably going to know that these modified Buccaneers come from Pirate sources and it would not take much to shut down purchases by local planets as "supporting piracy".
A more palatable alternative might be buying WYN PFs but that means not buying any until the General War is nearly over. Another post-war option would be buying a Gorn export model PF equipped with drones instead of plasma. Less likely but still possible would be Kzinti but I think purchases would be relatively few. X-ships are coming into vogue during the pacification and attrition units are on the decline plus at that point you are dependent on a foreign power for replacements and parts. Workboats also probably last longer then PFs so are a better long-term investment.
I can see a market for a design like this for neutral planets in the various neutral zones. I just cannot see Fed planets buying them.
Orion the province probably has a perfectly legal and open civilian shipyard. Likely at the starbase.
They have their own police boats after all.
There's no reason they shouldn't produce a PF for defense use by themselves and other independent planets (including both planets within the Federation and those in the nearby neutral zones). But there's no reason this PF would look any more like the Buccaneer than the Orion police ship looks like a light raider.
Start from scratch, you're building a PF for "legitimate" use, it shouldn't be an export pirate craft, the seller will be the same yard that builds Orion police craft and that yard will NOT also build pirates.
Please note that the Orion Workboat never got a Federation code name. While it is true that the WB is a civilian ship, it's still built on the same basic "Orion Pirate" type hull as the Buccaneer. That suggests quite a lot to me, but I really can't claim to be impartial here, now can I?
It seems to me that the role of "gunboat-sized thing used for local defense that's not a PF" is already filled by the skiff.
No.
I think in the Federation they just buy more bombers...
Guess I am again in the minority. I like the Federation making a reasoned and philosophic decision to not adopt gunboats as part of their defense policy and doctrine.
It makes them different from many other empires.
Must every empire in the game use exactly the same weapons and systems as all other empires? In this case, the answer appears to be 'no'.
The rules indicate that the Orion Pirate cartels did not generally use skiffs.
It has not been established if the Orion home world (or the Orion home world controlled worlds and bases in the enclave area)use skiffs differently than the rest of the Federation use skiffs.
We know that skiffs DO NOT operate in groups (or flotillas).
Just a suggestion, but is it possible that some smart Orion Trader could get the idea to soup up a security skiff for sale as a domestic gunboat for planetary defense?
All existing rules concerning skiffs would remained in force.
The only question would be, what after market upgrades could the Orion Merchants add to a skiff that would qualify as a “gun boat”?
What, exactly, do you mean by a gunboat?
No
Well, that ends that.
This was just a screwball idea that I've had fun with in some (REALLY bad) stories I've tried writing and thought I'd share.
While I didn't think it'd ever pass the muster (which it CLEARLY hasn't ), there was always a 0.00001% chance.
NOT proposing it would leave it at a 0% chance, and 0.00001% chance is still better odds than a 0% chance.
"Better to have proposed and been rejected than to never have proposed at all."
Stealth is not a coating, at least not just that. It is designed into the shape of the ship. That shape involves design compromises that make the ship unsuitable for any non pirate use.
The question was if a vanilla skiff could be improved by a civilian Orion Trader for sale as a civilian model gun boat. (Note:at this point no weapons have been assigned.)
This did not include stealth OR the use of a buccaneer PF.
I was willing to accept no as an answer, but you have confused me, by introducing stealth into the discussion.
What do you mean by 'gunboat', exactly?
The flavor text for the Orion Workboat says, "...The design is just a workboat. It cannot double its engines, does not have a suicide bomb, and does not have the built-in stealth features (the coating on the hull) of normal Orion PFs."
I used that as my excuse for this proposal.
As far as your question, Richard, my best guess for a "Gunboat" is any craft whose operations are covered under the rules in section 'K' and whose description is covered under rules (Rx.PFx).
Workboats (R1.PF7) are gunboats that just happen to be almost unarmed, and their use in Federation territory is a singluar exception to the rules against the Federation operating gunboats (and yes, I should learn that a singular exception should NOT have liberties taken with it ).
Richard, JGA pretty much answered you.
I was using the term "gunboat" generically to refer to a local defense craft based on a skiff design.
Roughly speaking, it is similar to the "gun fighter" variant of the Frigate that was published in captains log a few years ago.
Jeff,
Those are the security skiff and heavy security skiff. I imagine that those are as well armed as skiffs are able to be.
Skiffs are not gunboats.
I did not introduce stealth into the discussion. I just corrected a misunderstanding by someone else.
Combat skiffs already exist but will never become the size or power of PFs.
Logically, skiffs were always more heavily built than fast patrol ships, including the built-in ability to avoid the ionic build up that is a problem for the gunboats. The upshot is that skiffs were never able to be carried on mech links as PFs could be. The savings in mass allowed PFs to be more heavily armed than skiffs.
That, at least, is my theory.