Sigh:

At this juncture I will have to admit that I cannot find the specific prohibition on player A announcing that he is launching his drones to counter the drone that player B has just launched on that same impulse.

Suicide shuttles were covered by it because they are "seeking weapons" and even though they launch as shuttles, they operate as seeking weapons and are simply allowed (as with scatter pack shuttles) to operate as shuttles to conceal the mission as long as possible, but are otherwise "drones" (FD1.8) and restricted from being launched as counter seeking weapons against a seeking weapon launched on the same impulse as any other drone.

The reason Annex #2 (6B6) has that "of a given type" in some places is because the greatly expanded version of (6B6) which appears in Module G3, which has
plasma torpedoes all being launched first (Wire-Guided, release of Wire Guided to self-guidance, Accentuated Heat Torpedoes, etc.),
followed by multi-warhead drones releasing submunitions (which includes scatter-packs and particle splitter torpedoes and stingray drones),
and then drones (which includes Scud Missiles and Tachyon Missiles).

But suicide shuttles and scatter packs (and dummy versions thereof) are considered to be drones (FD1.8) even though they launch later to conceal the fact that they are drones.

And that is one of the reasons there has never been a term paper published about using suicide shuttles as counter drones to counter a just launched enemy drone on the same impulse.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 04:22 pm: Edit

So to summarize, after movement on impulse 31, the Carnivon is facing direction C and the Paravian is facing direction D, with the Carnivon #1 shield facing the Paravian #3 shield, both ships being in the same hex.

During the Seeking Weapons Stage (6B6) of impulse 31, the Carnivon launches death bolts at the Paravian, facing direction C. The DBs will be required to go straight ahead (direction C) for their first movement after launch on impulse 32.

During the Shuttle and PF Functions Stage (6B8) of impulse 31, the Paravian launches suicide shuttles at the death bolts, facing direction F. The suicide shuttles will be required to go straight ahead (direction F) for their first movement after launch on impulse 32.

There are no impacts of the just launched death bolts and suicide shuttles during the rest of impulse 31. However, there is an opportunity to fire direct fire weapons at the various seeking weapons by either ship during the Direct Fire Weapons Segment (6D) of impulse 31. Let's assume that there was no direct fire, or at the very least any direct fire did not destroy any of the seeking weapons.

So impulse 32 arrives and everything moves. Let's assume both ships just go straight ahead, the Carnivon in direction C, the Paravian in direction D. They will end the turn one hex apart, with the Carnivon's #3 shield facing the Paravian's #5 shield. Ordinarily, the shuttles would move next by the order of precedence (C1.313), but because they are targeted on the death bolts, they will move AFTER the death bolts. So the death bolts move, going straight ahead (direction C), and end the turn one hex from the Paravian, off its #5 shield, in the same hex as the Carnivon ship. The suicide shuttles will then move, and have no choice but to go in direction F, ending the turn 2 hexes from the death bolts, and facing away from them, in direction F. There are no weapons impacts during this impulse.

You will note that things would have been very different had the seeking weapons been launched towards different facings.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Sorry Steve, I see no restriction in the rules about launching suicide shuttles targeted at drones launched during the same impulse. The drones launch in (6B6), while the shuttles launch after, in 6B8. If it exists, please clarify where this restriction can be found.

By Charles Carroll (Carroll) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 04:29 pm: Edit

Ok thanks Steve so even though there is not exactly a written rule your ruling is no....the Suicides did not launch since they had no target since they had to target the drones at before the drones launched. Or effectively that.

We will work around it.

Thank you

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Deleted by author

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Yup, I too have seen suicide shuttles used as emergency drone defense many many times. If that is not how things are supposed to work, it needs to be clarified through errata. The rules as currently written clearly permit this.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Does this mean that when I launch plasma the other guy can not launch a WW on the same impulse? sigh... nope I am sure they still can SIGH

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 05:17 pm: Edit

That too, Vandor. I think you would be opening up a can of worms if that was to change.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 05:24 pm: Edit

SPP,

I respectfully ask that you reconsider your ruling vis-a-vis SS targeting drones launched in the same impulse.

The language of FD1.8 arguably creates an explicit exception. Namely, the rule states that SS are treated "as drones" with the following exceptions.... "including seeking shuttles are launched during the shuttle launch step."

That being the case, and given that the shuttle launch step comes AFTER the drone launch step, I would argue that FD1.8 *explicitly* provides a different launch step for a seeking shuttle.

Incorporating the other drone rules, FD1.21 explicitly states that the target ship for each drone must be announced on launch (exception F3.6 for hidden targeting). In other words, you determine the drone target on launch.

Therefore, it appears that the rules *explicitly* provide for launching a SS during the shuttle launch step (FD1.8) and announcing (recording) its target *at the moment of launch* (FD1.21).

Accordingly, it stands to reason that a SS may be targeted on *any* valid unit extant on the map at the instant of launch. Ergo, the SS *may* be targeted on the drone launched in the same impulse.

Reconsideration of prior statements and ruling in favor of the above interpretation respectfully requested.

Ted

By Charles Carroll (Carroll) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Greg and Costa....no can of worms involved. A WW is not a seeking weapon. It is a preprogramed shuttle that simple heads off into space. It broadcasts a signal making it appear to be the ship it came from. So it is not acting as a seeking weapon and so has nothing to do with this.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Wild Weasels are not "seeking weapons" in any way and nor restricted.

Note that (F2.321) makes no mention of launching any kind of counter-seeking weapon, only allows the use of direct-fire against a seeking weapon launched at Range Zero.

At this juncture, however, enough of you are calling me a "donkey" (this said with grace and no intimation of ill will on my part) that I will endeavor to bump this up to SVC. But be warned he is on final on a project and has basically threatened murder if he is interrupted before next Monday. I am not trying to put this off, only trying to explain the reason I am not immediately running this into him.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 05:58 pm: Edit

SPP,

When you bump this up to SVC, please take a look at my more formally worded appeal (two posts above) for your and his consideration. I provide explicit rules references that support the notion that the rules already provide that an SS may be targeted on a drone launched in the same impulse.

Respectfully,
Ted

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 08:38 pm: Edit

SPP,

Just adding my voice to the Suicide shuttle used as drone defense same impulse conversation. I am one of those early on players and have played many tournament matches over the decades against many different players. I can tell you from experience that every single player I have ever played would say using SS shuttles for drone defense same impulse is within the rules and that they all do it all the time. Hopefully the interpretation of this particular rule can come around to the actual practice of the players. If SS can not be used for drone defense, we are going to end up with a bunch of hard feelings if one player happens to hear about this interpretation and another doesn't. Everyone thinks it works the way everyone has been playing it.

By Marcel Trahan (Devilish6996) on Monday, October 28, 2019 - 11:36 pm: Edit

My little take on that issue:

1) A ship cannot launch drones at another ship drones that were launched on the same impulse as the drones are not out yet and both launches are simultaneous and are exactly in the same step (6B6). B2.3B specifies that actions happens in a specific order: These activities take place in a specific order shown in Annex #2.

2) SS are launched in a following step (6B8) and could be targeted on drones lauched the same impulse since (6B8) happens after (6B6). (J2.225) Suicide shuttles cannot be targeted on a plasma torpedo but could be targeted on a drone.

3) (F2.33) TARGETS: Each seeking weapon has one target, which is assigned at launch.
This seems to indicate that a SS target is assigned at the time of launch, which happens after seeking weapon step.

4) (FD1.8) SEEKING SHUTTLES specifies that: Seeking shuttles are launched during the Shuttle Launch Step. but does not specifies that it cannot be targeted on other seeking weapons.

On the other side: F1.22 specifies the following:

(F1.22) STANDARD GAME: In the Standard Game, either (or both) may be launched during the Seeking Weapons Stage of any impulse. Seeking weapons are NOT launched during the Initial or Final Activity Phases in the Standard Game.
(F1.221) In a given impulse, all seeking weapons of a given type are launched simultaneously. See segment 6B6 for the order in which different types are launched. This may require written orders (B2.4) in complex situations.
(F1.222) Shuttles used as seeking weapons are launched when other shuttles are launched, not when seeking weapons are launched, as otherwise this would give away their identity.

We must look at F1.221 where it says 'all seeking weapons of a given type are launched simultaneously' (are SS and drones the same given type or different?) and F1.22 says 'either (or both) may be launched during the Seeking Weapons Stage', it seems to say that SS are not required to be launched in the seeking weapon stage.

F1.2 seems to contredict B2.3B, annex #2 F2.33 and FD1.8.

IMO, if taken literally, SS could be targeted on drones in the same impulse as the drones were launched since it happens in a following step.

Using SS as a last ditch effort to stop drones targeted near or in the same hex has been a currently used quite often from what i have seen.

Marcel

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 12:03 am: Edit

I agree with Marcel. The target of a drone launch (and other requisite details) is recorded in secret before they are placed on the board. If the launch of drones by both players is at the same impulse, then those drones cannot be targeted as they are not on the board yet.

By Mark Steven Hoyle (Markshoyle) on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 08:41 am: Edit

My first question is:

You are fighting a drone user,
what Captain holds 2 SS, vs at least one WW.....

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 10:12 am: Edit

@Mark,

Happens all the time. There are plenty of occasions where you really don't want to use the WW, whereas you can use the suic as emergency drone defense while you are moving faster than speed 4.

Additionally, you don't know how the battle is going to go, at the beginning. Arming the SS gives you a more aggressive posture.

Finally, it's fast and easy to load a WW, comparatively speaking. Whereas it is slow and expensive load a SS. Starting at WS-III it's fairly easy to just be holding a SS and, if necessary, spend a third point of energy to begin a WW.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 10:38 am: Edit

One other thing from fiction, Mark...

In one story, IIRC, it's "And to the Republic," the Republic launched a scatter pack, but then her crew flew the ship as if the shuttle was a Wild Weasel. The Romulans were expecting the Weasel, so they'd used their PPTs. As a result, the Republic was hit by a large enough swarm of PPTs that, if they'd been REAL Plasma torpedoes, she'd have been a gutted wreck (at best), but the first generation Romulan ships she was facing suddenly had to deal with more drones than their limited number of phasers could handle.

(And, on a different note, the Federation, Gorn, and ISC, with their plethora of shuttles on larger classes, can find using them as mundane gun platforms can deal with quite a few drones.)

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 01:27 pm: Edit

Mark, in my opinion a Lyran, LDR or Hydran captain would. They have plenty of drone defense without charging a WW.

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 01:34 pm: Edit

at Mark,
It is 2 ships that launched 1 SS each at 2 Death Bolts.

Cheers
Frank

By Russ Simkins (Madcowak) on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 01:37 pm: Edit

So what attribute of a shuttlecraft makes it superior to other seeking weapons thus allowing it this unique ability in "real life"? They are pretty much always slower and less agile then their targets so physical interception seems unlikely even with a shuttles superior 'electronics'. If this were the method then why does it need to be a SS? Any seeking shuttle would work.
If their anti-matter payload is detonated taking out the drones in this very last millisecond venture then why is there no feedback damage?
It seems to me it is, at best, a favored loophole in the rules and in no way intended design or purpose. For a game with so many voices demanding adherence the hypothetical reality of its simulation it doesn't add up unless someone can justify that aspect.
I have no dog in this fight and not overly concerned in either outcome but I do appreciate the very interesting and friendly debate.

By Mark Steven Hoyle (Markshoyle) on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Frank:

---

Quote:

You have two deathbolts launched at a ship at range 0 on IMP 31. Then the ship targeted launches 2 SS 1 each at a deathbolt.

---

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 04:12 pm: Edit

That's a typo as I know, I am the one that launched the Death Bolts and faced the 2 SS launched back at them, 1 each from 2 ships.
:>)

Cheers
Frank

By Mark Steven Hoyle (Markshoyle) on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Frank:

Great to know 2 days into the debate......
Even your follow up doesn't point out that 2 ships launched the SS'.

To follow up --- were the DBs targeted on the same ship?

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 05:05 pm: Edit

I'd rather not say at this time as the battle is still ongoing.
:>)

Cheers
Frank