The Roms have the KRT from the Klingons.

But do they have a locally produced fully capable MC 1 tug?

I suggest that post Civil War (and the ISC/ Andros) they would desperately need some Military grade heavy tugs.

And as the X1 ships become a larger and larger % of the fleet and new construction, you'd see things like this become "not X1 tech" new designs to fill the roles that are needed, but don't require the X points to build.

And NO, I don't have access to the books. they are in a storage unit in a crate somewhere... So maybe there is already such a design out there.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Thursday, October 31, 2019 - 07:52 pm: Edit

R9 added the conjectural FireHawk-T to go with the conjectural SparrowHawk-T (along with a full set of combat pods).

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, October 31, 2019 - 08:14 pm: Edit

Doesn't the FHT cover this?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, November 01, 2019 - 11:02 am: Edit

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Quote:

Doesn't the FHT cover this?

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By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Friday, November 01, 2019 - 12:30 pm: Edit

The Romulans built most of their fleet to be modular and cover needs for carriers, scouts, whatever. I am guessing they saw a tug that could be modified for combat as redundant.

In addition most of the combat tugs of the other empires were becoming obsolete. The war hull they were flying with can drive a lot faster than middle years ships and a tug with a battle pod is more a ball and chain than a help in many combat situations. Add in that the Roms are a plasma race and are already flying fast and I can see them skipping it.

Some of this comes from experience flying Gorn battle tugs in a campaign years ago. They are not particularly effective if they have to work with other ships. I eventually stopped using them except for base busting.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Friday, November 01, 2019 - 12:53 pm: Edit

A number of new items on the Shapeways Products Line are Race Specific Freighters.

The Large Armed Freighters (R1.21) have 16 units of Warp Power and a movement cost of 1/2; a combination that leaves them (theoretically) capable of Speed 31 and, as such, they can keep up with Fleet elements.

These two facts suggest to me that there may already be a Romulan tug (of sorts).


(Although, just among us, I recognize that the F-AL is a Government/Fleet unit (it has T-Bombs), but why do the Eastern Powers, the Romulans, Gorn, and ISC, who otherwise only use Ph-2s on fighter shuttle types, use Ph-2s instead of Ph-1s on their Government/Fleet service Armed Freighters? With Western Powers, the Klingons, Hydrans, and Lyrans, it makes sense; they don't have all the Ph-2s on their front line warships upgraded to Ph-1s, but the Eastern Powers?)

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, November 01, 2019 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Actually BATTLE tugs and such are not the point.

It's the fully capable "tug" capability. IIRC the Sparrow Hawk "tug" configuration can't tote like a "real" tug.

And the KRTs have to be pretty old by then.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Friday, November 01, 2019 - 05:08 pm: Edit

I thought the Sparrowhawk could handle most tug duties like base construction, upgrade, and fleet resupply but I could be remembering wrong.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, November 02, 2019 - 11:55 am: Edit

Michael Grafton:

The SparrowHawk-H is allowed to collapse its cargo modules and carry BLM (R1.24) pods on top of them. It can carry Klingon cargo pods, but no other pods (which probably means it could carry other non-heavy Klingon pods but only in an inactive state, but the ship description as written does not allow this).

===================

(R4.31) SPARROWHAWK-H CARGO TRANSPORT (SPH): The SparrowHawk-H was the only Romulan-built "tug" and was primarily tasked with building and repairing bases and other facilities. It could be used for cargo transport, but the shortage of Romulan tugs limited this aspect to only the most critical and urgent priorities.
It can transport mobile base pods (R1.24) (one on each side attached to the H-modules, which collapse to allow this purpose, their cargo boxes being deleted during this period; can only carry pairs of these pods), allowing it to construct mobile bases. It can carry system activity maintenance stations (R1.30) and commercial platforms (R1.29) but must have another size 4 base or a small ground base (G14.742) on the other side. In this case, cargo damage would be scored on any box of the mobile base pod (or system activity maintenance station/commercial platform), and the H-module would be ignored. The H-module cannot become active during a scenario even if the base pods (or small ground bases) are dropped. The SparrowHawk-H can carry cargo pods (R4.33A) (only) to assemble mobile bases under the same conditions as mobile base pods.
It can also carry an inactive small ground base on each H-module, but must unload both at the same time to maintain dynamic balance. In this case, cargo damage would be scored on any box of the ground bases, and the H-module would be ignored.
Unlike most tugs, the movement cost and turn mode do not vary with the pods carried as the design dynamics restrict what the ship can carry.

===================

So technically it is, in and of itself, the equal of the KRT tugs (can carry cargo pods, can carry BLM pods, can carry small ground bases) as no other pods are available. And technically it is a "true" LTT compared to those of other empires in that all of the "pod" missions can be performed by switching out the "H" modules for other modules. Note that there is an "R" module that allows the SparrowHawk-R to act as a repair ship. But simply putting "A" modules on it is a "combat tug" like an LTT with a battle pod, but better in that it does not sacrifice movement or turn mode.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, November 02, 2019 - 03:10 pm: Edit

I am going to have to ask, other than its inability to carry any pods other than BLM pods and KRT cargo pods, what ability does the SparrowHawk-H lack that a purported movement cost 1 Romulan tug would provide?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Saturday, November 02, 2019 - 04:50 pm: Edit

The Romulan Modular designs. Give a flexibility to the fleet. In most empires i have a Fleet tug that can be turned into a battle tug, carrier are other ship role with pods. The Romulans can plug in Modules and now have that carrier or other ship type they need. No need to use my tug for that extra i might need and in a pinch a Cruiser hull can have h modules thrown on for that needed tug.

It is just a different way of doing it. The Romulans turn a Cruiser hull into a tug. Not a Tug into a cruiser.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, November 02, 2019 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Gregory S. Flusche:

At this juncture, it is that I am having a hard time seeing the need of a movement cost 1 Romulan tug IN GAME TERMS. You can technically see the SparrowHawk, almost all of them (i.e., obviously not SparrowHawk-Ms or SparrowHawk-Fs which are permanent conversions) as "tugs." Because the "battle tug" is a SparrowHawk-A, the "carrier tug" is a SparrowHawk-B, the "PF tender tug" is a SparrowHawk-E, the "repair tug" is a SparrowHawk-R. The SparrowHawk-H is the "basic" light Tactical Transport (the "H" modules carry over 20% more cargo than a single cargo pod of most empires), but is also the "tug" in that it can carry two Klingon cargo pods (50 cargo boxes).

Now, okay, it cannot carry the equivalent of a heavy carrier pod (cannot carry double weight pods at all), but its "carrier pod" carries 33% more fighters than any other empire's carrier pods.

And arguably the ship is already pretty well armed (a plasma-S and two plasma-Fs, plus three phaser-1s and four phaser-3s is pretty good firepower).

However, there is a "strategic issue" in that a tug or light tactical transport of another empire can pretty much simply drop one pod and pick up another in far less than a day, but SparrowHawks (while the SparrowHawk-H could drop off cargo pods and pick up cargo pods that quickly) takes more time to change out its modules to assume a new role. That is to say a "cargo tug" can drop its cargo pods and dock to PF tender pods and be on its way, but a SparrowHawk-H needs more time to replace its "H" modules with "E" modules, AND this can only be done at a starbase.

But, still, It seems to me that giving the Romulans a Movement Cost 1 tug is just saying "we want everyone to be exactly the same, no differences. Almost everyone else (Tholians, LDR, WYNs, Andromedans, Vudar are exceptions off the top of my head), so the Romulans should have one too, even if the SparrowHawk pretty much already has the mission covered (as I have noted above and previously).

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, November 02, 2019 - 06:53 pm: Edit

IIRC, most "true tugs" can carry 2 "full sized pods," or a double weight pod, or a double weight + single weight pod. AND they have some "internal cargo" capability to boot.

I don't remember ANY "History" where the KRTs get killed. (there are two, right?) which implies that at least one lasted a LONG TIME.

And IF a "true tug" can tote 2 "full pods" whilst the SPH can only tote one...

Even if it's only a one off, I'd think the Roms would love a ship that can tote and build bases more efficiently.

My pointy head, unofficial, not run past SPP, design.

No more combat power than a SPH, but with more "tugging ability." 2 single weight Pods or 1 double + 1 single weight pod. Room for ONE Skyhawk module. Usually cargo or repair (or similar).

No ability to use combat pods at all (it doesn't have the heavyweight power connectors) DELIBERATELY because the High Admirals (whatever) wanted to avoid the temptation of local Admirals to use this as a Cruiser, CV, PFT, or BC...

Something like "any pod carried by this ship can receive no more than 1 (whatever) point of power from the ship carrying it..."

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, November 02, 2019 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Michael Grafton:

Ahem, a SparrowHawk-H can carry two (2) Klingon/KRT cargo pods.

There are only two (2) tugs that can carry one double-weight and one single-weight pod: the Federation and Gorn tugs. The Klingons, Kzintis, and Lyrans can carry one (1) double-weight pod or two (2) double-weight pods, but canNOT carry a double-weight and a single-weight pod.

As the only double-weight pods of most empires are heavy carrier pods (the Federation also has a double-weight battle pod), that is there are no double-weight cargo pods, I do not get your need.

As already noted, the various pod+tug combinations pretty much already exist in the various SparrowHawk variants.

By Nick Blank (Nickgb) on Saturday, November 02, 2019 - 09:26 pm: Edit

One way SPHs are different from move cost 1 normal tugs:

F&E Rule 421.21, normal tugs (including most LTTs for that matter) can tow an FRD strategically by themselves, but SPHs count as CWs for that rule, meaning it takes two of them to tow an FRD strategically rather than one tug or one LTT.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, November 02, 2019 - 11:43 pm: Edit

But that addresses an infrastructure point.

Unless you are advancing a FRD into combat, it shouldn't matter what tugs are used to tow the FRD.

Many other (non Romulan) empires have 1 MC tugs that are better armed than the Federation tug (I mean, they have a combat tug with better weapons than a vanilla fed Tug, (example, the kzinti or klingons both have combat tugs.)

Two Romulan SPH are far better armed than a Fed tug .

The ONLY time it should matter, is if moving a FRD towards enemy forces WITHOUT additional escorts.

To be honest, I do not think I have ever heard any SFB or F&E players reporting this as a problem.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 09:21 am: Edit

Don't strawman Jeff, no one is saying this is a problem, except perhaps you.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 09:50 am: Edit

This thread has given me a terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad idea...

The ISC have their Blockade Runner; a "Fast Warship" cargo hauler. Could the Romulans emulate this with Cargo modules in place of the standard combat modules on their Fasthawk?

How useful would such a ship be during Operation Unity?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 10:02 am: Edit

The FHT and SPT in R9 would seem to solve the problems of the Romulans not having a "modern" Tug and standard LTT as compared to the rest of the Galaxy. Note there are Pods in R9 for the FHT, SPT, and the KRT as well.

Granted the FHT and SPT are campaign conjectural, but one can use them in a general scenario if desired.

Nick is correct about it taking 2 SPHs to move a FRD under the F&E rules. This can sometimes be an issue when you need to move an FRD via Strategic Movement (204.0) instead with Operational Movement (203.0).

The Romulans are weird with 3 different generations of ships in their fleets. However, that is part of what makes them unique in SFB and F&E. If you want them to be a "cookie cutter" empire like everyone else, then just have them use the Hawk series only to include the FHT and SPT.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 10:40 am: Edit

Richard, that was the point.

Sorry that you did not understand.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 12:40 pm: Edit

As an aside, the fact that the SPH can't move an FRD as quickly as a "real" LtT has a silver lining: it won't do it. This lets it focus on the other tug roles and let whatever two SP are handy move the FRD. So, still not a problem.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Mike, that is where you are wrong. The issue is not having enough ships of the "right" size to move the FRD in F&E terms. The issue is being able to move the FRD to the right location in one turn.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 02:28 pm: Edit

The Romulans do have the capability to convert KRs to KRTs. I don't think they did this historically which would seem to indicate they don't need (more) 'standard' tugs (which would explain why they never developed a new series ship of such a type).

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 03:07 pm: Edit

No the KRs cannot be converted to KRTs. The KRT (Klingon TGB base hull) is an entirely different hull type than the KR. Also they only have 2 KRTs available, and you have other work for them besides moving FRDs 12 hexes more often than not.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 04:26 pm: Edit

Yes, I was incorrect. I had been contemplating making more KRTs in some games I've played in the past, so I knew it was possible, but the actual method is to convert Klingon TGBs rather than KRs.