Archive through November 05, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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R04: ROMULAN PROPOSALS:
Indig Romulan MC1 tug:
Archive through November 05, 2019
SPP, thanks. As I noted I have been away from my books for the last few years.
So, is there a MC 1 tug thing? A Sparrowhawk H can do it all, EXCEPT drag a FRD by itself. I ASSUME (ahem) that there are other missions of similar scope...
This may be an obvious variant.
ALSO,
is there a need for a tug to tote "active pods" like scout/ repair/ survey/ whatever?
Because as i read SPPs notes, the SPH can only tote them as "inactive?"
I don't remember if the SPH is as good as a move cost one rescue tug at that mission and obviously it cannot carry active pods. Other than these things and the FRD towing limitation I think it's more or less as good as a normal tug for doing tug things such as being a supply point, doing repairs, converting bases, deploying PDUs and whatnot.
Michael Grafton:
As noted, all the pod variants are basically covered by different modules. Battle pods are a SparrowHawk-A, carrier pod is SparrowHawk-B, PF tender pod is SparrowHawk-E and so on.
The Romulan economy is maxed out. After Smarba they threw everything into refitting Klingon ships and upgrading their whole old series fleet. Less then a decade later they decided to build the next generation of ships and when the General War started they ran their economy at full wartime capacity even while at peace to try to get the fleet in shape and arguably still could not do it. I personally suspect that there were still Romulan sublight freighters toting goods around in the Romulan backwater into the X1 era because the fleet was taking almost everything. Not my call through.
To add another tug means something else has to give. It would probably have to be giving up Firehawk hulls to have a tug slip producing a specialized similar sized hull. The rest of the Empires are using tug hulls that have been in service for decades and the Roms do not have that advantage.
If the Romulans were winning the war I could see them eventually designing a normal sized tug to cover the cases the SPH, KRTs, and the FEs do suboptimally to support the advance assuming they believe they can afford it once exhaustion hits. Historically the Romulans did not advance much past the initial attack on Fed space. The later "Nutcracker" assault on the Tholians launched later would not need a lot of "tugging" and the Romulans never got far into Gorn space.
After that the Romulans were on the ropes. By the Remus campaign any FRD that was not at Romulus was probably destroyed so why build haulers for them? Post-war maybe they would reevaluate the need but they probably would not focus on tugs with the ongoing threat from the ISC and the chaos of their civil war.
The one thing I can see is building one to support the base rebuilding rush after the General War but there seems to be some cheap way of rebuilding bases during peacetime. If I remember correctly all the Empires rebuilt their bases prior to the Andromedans beginning their general attacks and there is no way they can do that using F&E economics in that timeframe without building virtually no ships (while history says everyone was building ships like crazy during the ISC "peace" and even then the mobile base build limits would make it impossible to build them all in a regular F&E context.
I could see the Romulans building a Firehawk sized tug for Unity but, even then, they may have just stuck with what they have that works reasonably well.
I do like the idea of the Romulans deploying the first X1 tug to fill the gap.
Michael Grafton:
The Romulans did not have active pods to carry unless they were hauling Klingon ones for some reason.
For what it is worth, the fact that two war cruisers can drag an FRD anywhere in Romulan space seems adequate enough. I agree that there is an inability to move them by the strategic method if one of the two KRTs is not available, which makes protecting those ships somewhat more important. But almost every other mission a movement cost 1 tug could perform a Romulan SparrowHawk-H can perform. Admittedly, an LTT (SparrowHawk-H) has a lower chance of success to perform the "rescue" mission, but it can perform that mission.
So I remain unclear on just why the Romulans absolutely positively have to have a movement cost 1 tug.
Basically, if this is really needed, someone needs to sit down and look at all the things a "true tug" can do that is not already handled at one level or another by the Romulan SparrowHawks. So far, I see only one (strategic movement of an FRD), and that one does not seem all that critical (if the KRTs are not lost). I do mean really look at it as, for example, LTTs cannot extend a supply line (max of three hexes) as well as a true tug (max of six hexes).
As noted, while Federation & Empire says that a Romulan SparrowHawk-H cannot carry a "battle pod," I consider that covered by the Basic SparrowHawk hull already having a plasma-S torpedo and two plasma-Fs and picking up two phasers with the "A" modules.
So, what, really, is the Romulan deficiency that can only be overcome by providing them with a Movement Cost 1 Tug? A deficiency that is so obviously extreme that this has to be done.
Because right now I pretty much see this as "All Empires Must Have Exactly The Same Capabilities So Give This To My Empire To Make It The Same As All Other Empires, Except My Empire Also Gets To Keep Its Unique Capability."
The big F&E capacity the Roms lack due to their lack of true tugs is the command rating, or rather the resilience of that rating.
If another race messes up and loses every local command rating 10 unit, they can assign a battle pod to a tug. Even if they've lost every flagship on the map and all the battle pods too, the Klingons or Kzinti can build at least two the next turn (one set of two battle pods) and have them instantly appear anywhere they have a Tug-A/C that is in supply. The relative ease of replacement also means battle tugs can be used for raw compot without worrying that irreplaceable capabilites are at risk - replacing a lost battle pod is an annoying expense but it doesn't take shipyard space.
The Roms can't do this, and are the only major race that can't. I think their shortage of CR10 units is a key weakness that should be kept, so would not support introduction of Rom command-10 tugs - at least prior to the introduction of their HDW that can also provide CR10.
In SFB of course the desired feature is mounting dreadnought or better armament on a movement cost 1 hull with lots of power for about the price of a BCH 
Andrew Harding:
It is a point, but again the Romulans are working a different system from other empires (modular ships), and one of the drawbacks is that lack of Command Rating 10 units. Ultimately, even the "Heavy Hawks" paid for this in that ships such as the Royal Hawk hull are essentially finished with "Modules" even if the Modules are "hard welded" in their case. Basically when a RoyalHawk, NovaHawk, SuperHawk is near completion it is provided with the combat module (K, B, N) that is needed. Perhaps if they did not have this module limit the command rating could have been higher.
But giving the Romulans "real tugs" instead of the two KRTs (or along with the KRTs) and the ability to shift most SparrowHawk Hulls to duties normally filled by a tug is just making the Romulans "just like everyone else, except better because they get to keep the SparrowHawk Modular flexibility," and gets back to making everyone more or less vanilla. I mean, there is absolutely no doubt that if the Romulans get a Movement Cost 1 tug "to move FRDs strategically, that is all we want, really" the very next thing will be "why cannot our tug use all those keen pods other empires use?" And there we are, Vanilla.
SPP
I think there should be AT LEAST a design study.
"Unbuilt variant" or whatever.
And the darn R text can say something like
"the Romulans considered building a "true tug" to replace the elderly & increasingly hard to maintain KRTs for a very few missions.
It was soon apparent that this would not be a good use of scarce resources...'
The Romulans do not have a plethora of command rating 10 hulls when they enter the war, but they do have enough, having a KC9R, 2CON, 2VUL and a VLV. That's SIX when they attack the Federation.
It is also possible for the Klingons to send them more ships to convert to KC9Rs, I think.
As long as the Romulan player chooses his battles and battle lines wisely this should not be a large problem. They have plenty of command rating nine hulls on top of this.
Later in the war they can build command rating 10 X-ships or can build command rating 10 HDWs.
The FHT, SPT and associated pods listed as Campaign Conjectural in R9 and G3 are perfectly fine as is. I understand F&E players wanting something like this added that is not conjectural from their point of view. However, I do not see a compelling reason for the Romulans to have a "modern" MC1 tug.
SPHs do have a construction limit of one per turn by any means. FE (Freight Eagle) can be substituted for a WE or SP at the rate of one per turn. This limits the Romulans to a single SPH (Limited LTT) and a FE (really limited LTT as you need 3 to get the ability to function as a full tug).
The Romulans, like most every other empire in F&E suffer from a lack of tugs to perform all the missions they need in a given F&E turn. Unlike the other empires with Battle Pods, Carrier Pods, PF Podes, etc. they have to choose between using these ships as pin count or in missions that they are suited for.
SPP is correct and just reiterated my comments previously about the lack of strategic movement capability for moving FRDs if a KRT is lost or assigned to another important mission such as a 2 step base upgrade. (NOTE: 2 Step Base upgrades only apply in F&E such as Mobile Base to Battle Station.)
Another way to look at is: The Feds start with 7 fully capable strategic mission tugs. The Klingons have 5 Combat Tugs and 2 Non-Combat Tugs that are fully strategic mission capabable. The Romulans only have the 2 KRTs that are fully strategic mission capable except as command ships (Battle Tugs) or Carriers (CV Pods).
All too often we, myself included, get caught up in a rats I can't do that situation. Instead of looking at it from the standpoint of what can I do with what I have available.
NOTES:
1. I am a primarily F&E player and so I view ships for their utility in the F&E sense of wanting any ship added to the game.
2. With regards to the Command Rating (CR) 10 comments, the ISC are in the same boat in that the only CR10 ships they have are DNs (Rom CON) or DN variants such as a CVA (Rom CNV) or a CCX/CAX with a CR of 10.
Or possibly an HDW with the flagship mission?
Is the Battle Tug command rating that big of a deal? I get that it is convenient to beef up command ratings in minor battles like BATs busting to reduce damage but the difference there between a CR 9 and CR 10 is not that big. Putting a battle tug up in a contested fight often ends with a blown up battle tug.
In addition the shortage of CR 10 ships is kind of baked into the Romulan history at this point. It is why they built the Killerhawk and why they are the only empire to build a ship to fill that dubious niche.
How about a set of modules, usable by the Novahawk or Royalhawk* but no other ships, with fewer power and weapons than the combat modules but with Flag Bridge, giving the ship a command rating of 10 but less "integral" combat power than a standard Novahawk or Royalhawk? Note that the Killerhawk, while having lots of power and weaponry, does not have CR10.
*The Royalhawk is the plasma-R version of the Novahawk, isn't it? I always have trouble remembering which is the Royalhawk and which is the Regalhawk.
Wait, the Killerhawk is not CR 10? I could have sworn it was. Wow, now I really do not know why the Romulans built that abomination. A dreadnought replacement that cannot replace a dreadnought in any real way.
Because they can. (Move cost 1, 50 power, 11 phaser-1s. Nightmare fuel.)
Steve,
Huh? 7 phaser-1s. (An older, no longer valid version of the Killerhawk did have 11 phaser-1s, but that was changed a while ago.)
Alan Trevor:
"L" modules already exist and are rule defined as not available to heavy hawks. [From (R4.N): "No Heavy Hawk can carry J- or L-modules."] Whether that heavy hawk is a "standard" heavy cruiser (FireHawk, RegalHawk, FarHawk), or a command cruiser (RoyalHawk, SuperHawk, NovaHawk), it cannot use an "L" module.
SPP,
Yes, I'm aware of that. What I'm proposing is a little different (not too different, but a little). Unless I am misremembering, an L-Module. has the same weapons and power as a standard combat A-module. The improved command rating is pure improvement. My suggestion is for a comand module for the NovaHawk and RoyalHawk which has improved command rating as a substitution, rather than pure improvement. Suppose the "flagship" version of the Novahawk loses an APR and a single phaser-1 from each K-module, but gains a flag bridge. The resulting ship would be somewhat inferior to a standard NovaHawk as far as its own inherent combat power is concerned, but could command a full-sized fleet.
I admit its not much different than giving an L-module to a Novahawk, since the A-modules on a Sparrowhawk only have a single phaser-1 to begin with. But again, unless I am misremembering, it's not identical, since a "NovaHawk with L-modules" wouldn't lose any power systems. But maybe that's still too close for ADB.
Alan Trevor:
As L modules exist and could not raise a FireHawk's command rating (cannot be used by a Heavy Hawk) you are not going to raise the command rating of an existing command heavy hawk (SuperHawk, NovaHawk, or Royal Hawk) with a new command module.
Understood, though it still seems to me peculiar that the Romulans didn't do something to produce a CR10 cruiser, given the low rate of dreadnought production.
So back to the designing of a MC 1 Romulan tug.
Maybe an entry into the F&E SIT saying something like "Can only be built (substituting for a heavy cruiser/ hawk) if a KRT is destroyed...."
Can you just purchase another KRT from the Klingons in F&E? I like my Romulans the way they are. I play SFB not F&E.
I play patrol type battles. Very seldom do i play a full 13 ship fleet. (DN in command slot 5 ships, battle group 6 ships and free scout.) A heavy Hawk cost as much as some races DNs. When you buy one with fighters it can be more. So if i play a big fleet of 12 ships vs 13. There really would be no difference in BPV.
I do not miss buying a battle tug are making a carrier from a tug. A tug is supposed to carry cargo military cargo. As an Admiral if my MC-1 tug is off being a carrier/battle tug. What is carrying my replacement fighters for my planet and base defenses?
Sorry i do not want a MC-1 tug and all of its pods.
Gregory S. Flusche:
Your problem is that there comes a time when the Romulans are cut off from the Klingons, at which point buying a new ship from them just adds that ship to the Klingon fleet.