As you are talking about a fleet battle, even launching 12 QWT's at a single target will still allow phaser fire from other units to knock down the QWT.

As the phaser damage to a QWT is at 1:1 and not 1:2 at range 3 from the QWT the Gorn have a 50% chance to hit for at least 4 points of damage, which removes the splash damage and at 11 points the QWT hits for 0. Most early Gorn's have Phaser-2's and not Phaser-1's.

At range 5 the plasma's hit on 1-4 (2/3 chance) and hit for 10 points (both F's and G's).

Also, look at the shield strength of the early year units. Two hits from a bolt, will result internals, the WLC (YR18.3B, Y1, pg 79) has 14 boxes for shields #6, 1 and 2. The Gorn YCL (Y1, pg 48) has 18 shield #1 boxes and 14 boxes for shield #6 & 2.

The Gorn does not need to get any closer than range 5 and bolt. The Gorn fleet has a 2/3rd chance to hit, better shields and has a good chance to do internals with two bolts, and the cruiser's have two launchers.

I don't see this as a no win situation for the Gorn. I do agree that this is going to be a ballet with the Gorn making a run every third turn and then turning off and increasing range.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 05:15 am: Edit

While shotgun and enveloping torpedoes are not available in the Early Years, plasma-F and fast loads are not prohibited. This means a Gorn cruiser can have a sustained firing rate of one 10-point bolt per turn.

Turn #1, weapon status Zero: begin arming launcher A normally and launcher B as a plasma-F.

Turn #2: continue arming both launchers as above, but we complete launcher A in mid-turn as a fast-load and fire it.

Turn #3: we begin re-arming launcher A as plasma G, complete the arming of launcher B, and during the turn fire launcher B.

Turn #4: we continue arming launcher A and start arming launcher B with a Plasma G. During the turn we fire launcher A as a fast load.

Basically as the battle develops we may have a break to fully arm both launchers as plasma Fs or may have other arming options as the battle develops. But we can retain an ability to fire a 10-point warhead every turn. It is not cheap on power, and losing a launcher or a battery puts you out of business until you can make repairs. But the threat is there.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 08:31 am: Edit

The question in my mind is how does the Gorn ever get to range 5 in the first place?

Yes, QWTs are easy to shoot down. That takes power. Arming plasmas takes power. Moving takes power. Early years ships don't have a ton of power. You simply can't do all three. Granted, I don't have all of the Y1 SSDs other than the Paravian YCL and Gorn YCC. Maybe some get enough power to go much faster than 18 and still charge plasma?

Steve, fast loading the torps slows you even more and they can't be held. That makes it even closer to impossible to get to range 5.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 08:39 am: Edit

Steve said "
Tun #2: continue arming both launchers as above, but we complete launcher A in mid-turn as a fast-load and fire it."

The Gorn CC can do speed 12 with that plan. The Paravian CL can do 15 and launch both QWTs, 18 with one, or 24 with neither. It's a looong slow fight, but I honestly don't see how the Gorn get to 5 without permission.

Are there any fleet scenarios printed for them prior to 105? Maybe a more historical view would help me see things differently.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 08:53 am: Edit

Scratch that one part. It looks like downloaded Fs can still be held for one point each. I'm still not understanding everyone's assumption that the gorn make it to range 5. :|

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 09:02 am: Edit

Side question: which BPV value is correct for the Paravian YCL? The chart in G3 says 61. The SSD I have says 72. I'm assuming G3 since it's 9 years newer.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Ginger McMurray:

From Weapon Status Zero. Begin arming plasma-Fs in both launchers on Turn #1.

Turn #2 continue arming plasma-F torpedoes.

Turn #3, begin rolling delay arming of plasma-F torpedoes, during turn dump reserve power into a tube and fire a plasma-F bolt.

Turn #4, continue rolling delay on one tube and start arming a plasma-F torpedo in the second tube. Some time during turn drop reserve power and fire a plasma-F bolt.

Turn #5, continue arming first launcher, begin arming second launcher.

Turn #6, first launcher is now on rolling delay, second launcher continues arming. Some time during turn drop reserve power and fire a plasma-F bolt.

You can also complete arming (two points of power, must be allocated power during Energy Allocation) on a given turn and hold the torpedo (in either or both launchers).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Ginger McMurray:

Range five is a function of different things. If the Paravian has to stand in front of the Gorn to protect something important to the Paravian. If it is an otherwise fixed map which means the Paravian can be forced into a corner. If there is a time limit to accomplish an objective that simply does not leave time for longer term maneuvering.

Paravian YCL is currently listed as 61 BPV in the MSC.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 04:10 pm: Edit

"during turn dump reserve power into a tube and fire a plasma-F bolt."

This asseume you get to range 5. If you do, and you use reserve power, you're either slowing down even more or you're only able to do it one (at least on the YCC, other ships may have 4 batteries)

"Range five is a function of different things." So basically the Gorn can only win if the scenario is designed in a way that they can win?

Are there any Paravian vs. Gorn scenarios published? I'd love to give one a go.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 04:21 pm: Edit

I don't know how accurate it is, but this page throws a nova from a starsnake into the mix. That would definitely do it, but if it's not SFU canon it seems like a deus ex machina.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Gorn Paravian Scenarios:

(SL167) Raiding the Nests

(SL168) Time Enough.

Both in Captain's Log #18.

The Paravian QWTs are bow mounted, to use them the Paraivian must turn into the Gorn. This means the Gorn must put pressure on the Paravian. To fire one QWT costs the Paravian two points of power, to fire both costs four points of power.

There is a constant battle going on in trying to add new things, but not mess with the overall background. Federation & Empire is a published product, so the only way the Carnivons or Paravians could be added to the game system (and pretty much the Borak and the Peladine as well) is that they had to come under the rubric of "also rans." Thus they could appear in "the Early Years," but could not survive as independent empires outside of the Early Years. Doing so would seriously imbalance Federation & Empire, because fleets would have to be deployed to "watch" them, and rules would have to include things like "If the Capital is threatened, you may move X number of combat factors from the Fleet watching the Paravians to defend the homeworlds." There are economic production factors (what if I did not attack the Romulans but attacked the Paravians instead?).

In the case of the Borak, they were conquered by the Hydrans and any economic potential they represent is subsumed into the Hydran off-map economy. Same thing with the Peladine, although they were conquered by the Lyrans. The Carnivons may still exist as a few scattered worlds, but were effectively destroyed by the Lyrans and Kzintis. For the Paravians, it was a nova induced by a sun snake, but even so Bruce Graw resurrected them in his Omega Octant.

Strategically, the Paravians in the Alpha Octant were always doomed. Not because they had inferior ships and technology, but due to a combination of genetic disposition (they were not empire builders, but just raiders, which put them in an inferior economic position versus the Gorns, further complicated by their desire to attack the Gorns even when the odds were "not good") and the Gorns were finally able to turn ships and manpower that had been contesting with the Romulans against them.

Both Modules E3 (Borak Star League) and E4 (Peladine Republic) provided enough to allow the Borak to replace the Hydrans, and for the Peladine to replace the Lyrans as player options, and Module C6 created backgrounds for what if the Paravians had exterminated the Gorns (going in the larger direction versus what was in Captain's Log #28), and various ways the Carnivons might have survived (like what if the Carnivons became the WYN Star Cluster). But again these are not factored into changing Federation & Empire.

To great extent that is also what Module C4 was [and the empires added in Captain's Log #28 (the 8th Air Force) and Module P6 (The Hispaniolans)]. And why the game moved to the Magellanic Cloud (Module C5) and the Omega Octant (Modules Omega #1, #2, #3, #4, and #5), that is to have new challenges.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Awesome, thanks! That makes perfect sense.

Are those scenarios in Y1, 2, or 3?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Ginger McMurray:

As noted, the two scenarios are in Captain's Log #18. There are several "General War/Middle Years" level scenarios in Module C6.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 07:10 pm: Edit

Here is a list of the units for the scenarios, plus the C6 scenario's that have Paravian units.

Abbreviation	Rule	Scenario Name	Unit Type	Unit Name
C6	SJ4.0	Get Out of Here	RMS	Raid Mothership
C6	SJ4.0	Get Out of Here	P-C	Cargo Pod
C6	SJ5.0	Withdrawal Under Fire	CA	Heavy Cruiser
C6	SJ5.0	Withdrawal Under Fire	DW	Peregrine War Destroyer
C6	SJ5.0	Withdrawal Under Fire	DW	Peregrine War Destroyer
C6	SJ6.0	Marauders and Raiders	CF	Fast Cruiser
C6	SJ7.0	Marauders Return	DD	Destroyer
C6	SJ7.0	Marauders Return	DD	Destroyer
C6	SJ7.0	Marauders Return	DefSat - QWT	Defense Satellite - Quantum Wave Torpedo
C6	SJ8.0	Marauders and Snakes	CC	Command Cruiser
CL18	SL167.0	Raiding The Nests	YCL	Raptor Early Light Cruiser
CL18	SL167.0	Raiding The Nests	YDD	Peregrine Early Destroyer
CL18	SL167.0	Raiding The Nests	YDD	Peregrine Early Destroyer
CL18	SL168.0	Time Enough	YCL	Raptor Early Light Cruiser
CL18	SL168.0	Time Enough	YDD	Peregrine Early Destroyer

By Eamon Wentzel (Emwentzel) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Steve, I am going to give my observations. I played the game on Saturday with Ginger. The first game where the Gorn could only bolt was a disaster for the Gorn, but a good historical liability to overcome. The second game was a little better for the Gorn but the advantage was better than before, but not significantly better.

This is my issue. The problems I have with the Gorn ship we used the YCC is that it is under gunned. Paravian YCL we used has 2xQT 3xP2 and 4xP3. The Paravian YCA has 2xQT 5xP2 4xP3. The Gorn CC which looks like a upgraded CL only has 2xPl-G 4xP1.

The Gorn YCC is under matched compared to the Paravian YCL in terms of pure firepower until Y106 and as mentioned is completely outgunned by the Paravian YCA even after 106 due to the massive phaser batteries installed on the ship. The Gorns when faced with this dilemma would have been forced to build a YCA with at least 2xPl-G 6xP2 to maintain a semblance of a balance of firepower.

The above suggestions are very good and I thank everyone who contributed. But the question is still there of trying to catch a Paravian when only bolts are available. The Gorn was unable to close enough to fire even one bolt and the Paravian just kept running around the Gorn firing non-stop. Given the liabilities of the Gorn ships, I think they they would have to fight at 2-1 odds just to be able to have a chance to score damage.

As stated, the Gorns need a YCA to balance out the fleet. Thank you for your time here.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 10:25 pm: Edit

Why wouldn't the Gorns just snipe with phaser-ones in the 6-8 bracket if they cannot reach 5?

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 10:46 pm: Edit

Thank you for the list. I'll ha e to grab those. 👍😊👍

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 11:36 pm: Edit

Richard, during the Early Years, the only folks with ship mounted Phaser-Ones were Tholians and Vulcans.

If I remember things correctly, the conjectural Federation Y-era Battleship also had them, but I believe outside of these three exceptions, the Phaser-One was only found on fixed installations. In most respects, the Phaser-one could be regarded as effectively the Phaser-Four of the Early Years Era.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 09:10 am: Edit

Jeff is correct. Also, at least for the two ships we played, the Gorn were under-phasered. They had fewer than the Paravians and no P-3s for defensive fire and padding.

By Troy J Latta (Saaur) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 10:32 am: Edit

It can't be a fair fight anyway; the YCL out-BPVs the YCC by 15%!

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 10:59 am: Edit

In Eamon's post above, which I was responding to, the Gorn ship was listed as having phaser-ones.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 12:31 pm: Edit

To follow up on SPP's post above, it should be noted that the Paravians were, historically-speaking, already in serious trouble at a strategic level by the time the first Y-era ships were being deployed along the Gorn-Paravian front.

One key difference was that, during the preceding W-era, Gorn warp-refitted ships were able to have their "warp-class" weapon upgrades installed at forward bases, whereas Paravian ships had to return all the way to the home world to have their own weapons upgraded.

Also, while the Gorns were operating as a "traditional" fleet, the Paravians were deploying either as lone raiders or as raiding task forces - which, according to the Y-era data, never fielded more than seven ships at a time, even when commanded by ships which possessed a higher Command Rating. So even in the absence of the kind of logistical assets which made campaigns in later eras much easier (such as mobile bases), the Gorns were slowly yet steadily able to drive the Paravians back to their home system, once the Romulans were put in check.

Actually, two of the three "Paravian timelines" in SFB Module C6 shows what might have happened had the Paravians sought to build a "traditional" empire. In one, a leader named Marengo Firecloud Wildfeather was able to use a set of sample colonies he had commissioned "privately" (or rather, using the resources of his faction on Paravia) to convince the Paravians at large to follow suit. In another, the Paravians lacked the genetic disposition not to "leave the nest", and actually ran into the Gorns much earlier. Either way, both sides were able to use their forward bases to upgrade their warp-refitted ships, thus leading to a stalemate that is represented by "Mapsheet P" as shown in both Module C6 and in Captain's Log #48.

On a side note, the other other "Paravian timeline" in Module C6 has a group of exile Paravians use one of Marengo's "trial" colonies, Wingatha, to eventually launch long-range raids back into Gorn space.

Ironically, even in those timelines where the Paravians remain a power in the Alpha Octant, they become no more than a medium power at best; while they align themselves with the Romulans, they have to contend with the Gorns and the Inter-Stellar Concordium, who in the "Mapsheet P" timelines are allied to the Gorns against the Romulans and Paravians. Whereas in the Omega Octant, those exiles who historically fled the Alpha Octant would eventually rise to become a major threat, who are set to unleash their full campaign in the as-yet-unpublished Eighth Cycle of Omega history.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 12:51 pm: Edit

For my part, I wonder how well, or otherwise, the Module C6 Paravians are able to compete against the Gorns and ISC as technology progresses.

In the Middle Years, a Paravian CA with four quantum wave torpedoes versus either a Gorn CA or an ISC "CA-", each with a pair of plasma-G torpedoes apiece, would seem like more even fights, though the Paravian is limited by the need to use warp power to overload its QWTs. But as their rival empires gain new technologies (Plasma-S torpedoes and/or PPDs), new firing options (enveloper, sabot, etc) and new refits, it would appear that the C6 Paravians might struggle to keep pace.

For example, a Paravian heavy battlecruiser has more weapons and power than a Paravian heavy cruiser - but with no AWRs and no added warp engine power, it is no better at overloading its QWTs. Well, in a roundabout sense, the BCH could perhaps use its additional power to cover things which the CA might have to rely on warp engine power to cover, but whether that is enough to get by in an increasingly hostile combat environment is another matter.

Of course, it remains to be seen what C6-Paravian first-generation X-ships might look like, or if they might address their potential shortfalls in other ways - perhaps by making greater use of partial-X refits than other empires.

But for those of you who have flown, or flown against, the Paravian ships in Module C6, do any of those concerns seem justified in your view, or are the "late-war" Paravians competitive enough in your experience?

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Thanks, everyone! This definitely makes me want to get C6. I really enjoyed flying the Paravians, with QWTs falling somewhere between drones and plasma in usefulness (at least in the Y era we were playing). I'm not sure how they'd fare compared to drones once fast ones show up, but I don't have the rules from C6 to compare.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, January 01, 2020 - 10:33 am: Edit

I played the Paravians in one of Matts campaigns. I also played against them in some of those campaigns. They are a fun race to play. In great numbers the QWTs can be nasty so can Disrupters. The QWT is a great weapon for wearing down shields and in great numbers can cause nasty internals.

The best group tactic I have found was to launch Torps around range 15 or so. Turn off and repeat. Some times you can fire a longer range salvo near the end of one turn and fire a second early on the next. Maximizing the number of QWTs on the board. I also found that launching them in groups of 6. Sets up one ship with a high ECCM and loaned more to help with the ECM shifts. The ship just takes control of each stack as it goes in. With the splash effect QWTs hitting like that tends to take out a ships forward shields.

Like a Klingon however there is a lack of crunch even with overloads and as with the Klingon overloads slow you down. That lack of speed vs Heavy plasma can spell death. I found that a determined Gorn will run thru a pack of QWTs get into range and either Bolt are launch plasma and take me apart.

To play the Paravians you must think like a Klingon is my best advice. Dance, dance, dance,, is all I can say.

The Ballet can work real well vs the Paravians and they will love to play it vs the Gorns. The Romulans and the cloak. If the Romulans can keep the paravians dancing back out they have a built in WW. Any more ? maybe I an help