I have a vested interest in Marcel's last two questions. Some rules references for SPP's consideration.

For the first MRS question: See J8.21 for the utility cargo/spare drones availability. See J8.11 for the specifications that the drone/plasma D MRS come with 2 drones/plasma D.

It is my opinion that there are 22 total drones. The reason is that under J8.21 "a MRS shuttle can carry ONE of the following options in addition to it's standard equipment." (Emphasis supplied). Thus, the MRS carries its 2 drones *and*, if it selects the cargo option, extra drones.

Additionally, a ruling that the MRS must take its drones from the 20 spaces available means that the MRS could end up with NO drones at all, because J8.21 states you receive ONE of the options, so if the MRS picks a mine instead of the 20 spaces of cargo, then the MRS would have no drones from which to load itself.

Therefore, the drone/plasma D MRS comes with 22 drones total.

In terms of cost of drone upgrades, one would pay to upgrade the drones on the MRS, and in addition, one would pay to upgrade 10 spaces of drones (if selected as the extra cargo and selected all 20 spaces in drones), per J8.23.

The Second Outstanding Crew/Legendary Weapons Officer Question
Outstanding crew is found in G21.2. The LWO is found in G22.7. These rules, and the general conditions for legendary officers (G22.0 and G22.1) do not indicate any cost calculation procedures. Such are found only in Annex #6A, as far as I know. Annex #6A does not answer the question one way or another.

Therefore, I cannot argue from the rules themselves one way or another as to how to answer Marcel's question.

That being said, a general principle is that one should read the rule "as written".

If one does so, then the cost is Marcel's first option: pay 50% of the original price of the ship for the outstanding crew, and also pay 15% of the original price of the ship for the legendary weapon's officer.

Otherwise, how would you know to apply one before the other?

Follow-Up Question
When paying for legendary officers/ crew quality, does one add the cost of drone upgrades bought with force BPV to the cost of the ship before or after calculation of the percentage?

Example: A Kzinti CC has 20 spaces of drones and buys all Type-1 medium speed drones for a cost of 10 BPV (0.5 BPV per drone). The CC costs 135 BPV.

So, if the player purchased a Kzinti CC (medium speed drones) with an outstanding crew, is the cost:

1) (135+10)*1.5 = 217.5 BPV; or

2) (135*1.5)+10 = 212.5 BPV?

Does the answer change if the Kzinti player purchases the drone speed upgrades with commander's options points?

(I.e., in this case, the CC in this case costs 135*1.5 = 202.5 BPV, and (assuming 20% commander's options) pays 10 BPV from the 40.5 BPV in commander's options points available).

Thank you.

By Eamon Wentzel (Emwentzel) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 02:13 pm: Edit

Steve, here is my question.


I am working on a Y Era scenario and on the SSD for the Tholian DD it has overload capability listed for the disruptors.
So for historical accuracy, did the Tholian DD come equip with OL Disruptor capability or is the SSD for a ship from a later period?
What year was the overloaded disruptor developed and by who?

Thank you

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Purchasing a drone-armed MRS comes with the drones in the rule for its supplies. That is the 20 drone spaces in (J8.53). It is not 20 spaces in (J8.53) plus two spaces already on the MRS. Note that Tholian, LDR, Lyran, Hydran, and Vudar MRS shuttles do not come with drones. Gorn, Romulan, and ISC MRS shuttles come with 20 plasma-D torpedoes, not 22 plasma-D torpedoes. This is not any different than for fighters on a carrier. The fighters define what the drones can be, but the carriers drone storage is as given in Annex #7G. A Squadron of 10 Z-2s can carry 20 drones (assuming no EWF), and that 20 drones counts against the 100 drone storage of the D6V they are operating from. Replacing the 10 Z-2s with 10 Z-YCs means the fighters can have 6 type-I drones each, and that 60 spaces means that there are only 40 spaces left in the D6V's drone storage. (You can finale this somewhat by using type-VI drones on type-I or type-III drone rails on the fighters and/or purchasing an MRS so that its 20 spaces of drone storage will give you enough drones to fully arm the fighters for a second strike, perhaps also with some extra spaces bought with Commander's Option and rearming some of the fighters on the escorts).

Rule (J8.2) covers missions the MRS can perform, not "packages that can be selected. In short, an MRS on a Romulan ship might be loaded, during the scenario, with the ship's nuclear space mine. Such an MRS would have to go to other Romulan ships to get additional nuclear space mines, and an MRS of a non-Romulan fleet wold have to go and land on a minelayer/minesweeper to pick up nuclear space mines (or an admin shuttle from such a ship could carry nuclear space mines to the ship the MRS is on to load them there. The purchase of an MRS means that it can do the mission of laying such mines, but it does not in and of itself give a ship not otherwise qualified to carry a nuclear space mine a nuclear space mine or additional T-bombs. And the same goes for T-bombs. You can load the four (or six if size class 2, or two if you happen to be a size class 4 carrier) allowed T-bombs of the ship onto an MRS, but having an MRS does not allow the ship to have more than the number of T-bombs allowed to it.

Rule (J8.21) is about the capabilities of the MRS, not about other mission options you can choose to have on it in addition to its normal weapons.

Legendary Weapons Officer and Outstanding Crew Queries I will need to do some research. Been a long time since I have done this and I need to peruse the rules myself.

Eamon Wentzel:

Strangely, that question never came up before I started working on the Tholian Master Starship Book. It is a big game and a lot of things get overlooked. At the time the Tholian acquired disruptor technology (the raid in Y112), there was no capability to overload disruptors. That capability shows up about Y120 (Klingons, Lyrans, Kzintis, Orions). The Tholian Destroyer appears in Y115, and the disruptor patrol corvette in Y112. There was some discussion of this (including the concept that since the Tholians were aware of "overloads" because they could overload the particle canons on their Neo-Tholian Destroyers and Frigates that arrived with them that they might have invented the capability for disruptors and everyone else copied from them, but this was eventually dropped), and it was finally determined that both the Tholian destroyer and Tholian Disruptor Patrol Corvette cannot overload disruptors prior to Y120, and can overload them in Y120 and later, no change in BPV.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 04:24 pm: Edit

SPP: Please confirm that, under J8.21, if a drone-using MRS does NOT take the "20 cargo spaces" and select "drones" as at least some of those cargo spaces, then the MRS will effectively have no drones at all in that scenario. (In order to receive one of the other mission selections).

In addition, I am confused by the portion of the J8.21 that states that the MRS gains the described equipment in addition to its standard equipment.

If a Federation MRS has 2*Type-I drones as standard equipment, then would not the MRS receive 2 type I drones, regardless of which selection of mission equipment was chosen by the player?

If so, then the answer should be changed to "22 drones", not 20 drones.

Thank you for considering.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Would not those two drones come from the 20 space drone stockpile for the MRS?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Richard, the reason why I remain confused is that J8.21 states that the mission equipment is "in addition to" the standard equipment listed for the MRS. For the Federation MRS, that is 2*Type-I drones. So it seems the 20 space stockpile (if taken, it does not have to be) is "in addition" to the 2 that come with the MRS.

So, the wording is confusing to me and I am confirming SPPs ruling as a result. If SPP confirms his prior ruling, then the rule should be edited to remove the confusion.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Ted Fay:

Again, (J8.21) is things the MRS CAN DO (that is it can carry 20 spaces of cargo in addition to two spaces of drones on its drone rails (or two plasmas on its plasma rails, or act as a web spinner). You do not have to select one of these things as "options." Rule (J8.21) is just, as the (J8.2) rule title says, its

"Utility Cargo Capacity."

None of the things listed comes with it other than the simple capacity to carry the things listed, and in some cases combat use if you load it with those things (laying mines).

The "addition to standard equipment" (standard equipment, like the ability of an MRS to lend electronic warfare to its base unit or an assigned fighter squadron) it can function as an admin shuttle for moving cargo, but is a little better (20 spaces of cargo instead of just 15 on an admin shuttle). NOTING ANYWHERE says that the 20 spaces of cargo must be what is provided in (J8.53) or it does not have what is provided in (J8.53).

And, i am sorry, I do not find the rule at all confusing. No where does it say that the items listed in (J8.21) the, again, utility cargo capacity of the shuttle. And (J8.23) states

(J8.23) COST: The equipment listed above does not come with the MRS at no cost.

The list shows only the carrying capacity.

The cargo is loaded by deck crews with one deck crew operation loading two points of cargo (equal to one small mine or half of a large one). The loading rate specified is much lower than would be the case for a non-MRS, but is correct. The lower rate is due to the special arrangement of the MRS.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 10:04 pm: Edit

SPP: Thank you for the additional information.

By Eamon Wentzel (Emwentzel) on Wednesday, January 01, 2020 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Steve, thank you for answering the question about the disruptor.

Have a nice New Year

Eamon

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 01, 2020 - 06:17 pm: Edit

Ted Fay:

This is a print medium, and reading your last post I am concerned you read a "tone" in my previous post that I assure you was not intended. I only wanted to make the issue clear, and if I failed to do so that is on me. If it is still not clear it was not an intent on my part to shut things down if it remained unclear.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, January 01, 2020 - 08:16 pm: Edit

SPP: It's all good. I was simply misinterpreting "in addition to" in the rule. You clarified it.

I took no umbrage at your ruling, but appreciate your sensitivity.

FYI: I can be passionate about arguing, but I don't take offense easily. Even if I did, I forget quickly too.

Happy new year, and THANK YOU for all your hard work at ADB and for answering all of our questions.

Thanks,
-T

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 02, 2020 - 03:18 pm: Edit

I have not forgotten the Outstanding Crew and Legendary Officers, but as noted I need some time to research it and may not have that time until tomorrow. My apologies.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 12:57 pm: Edit

In re: Crew Quality and Legendary Officers, do these answer the questions? If not, ask again.

(S2.14) GROSS ADJUSTED BPV: There are various equations, and calculations based on BPV, and it is important to perform them in the correct order. The key point is the "gross adjusted BPV" which is used for various calculations. This GABPV includes:
the cost of drone speed upgrades (FD2.22)
the effect of crew quality (G21.0).
the value of Legendary Officers (G22.0).

(S3.21) GENERAL: Players may, under the terms of Section B of the Standard Victory Conditions (S2.20) and the limitations of (S1.3). purchase extra weapons, boarding parties, etc., for their ships. The cost of such items is shown on Annex #6. Some of the items on Annex #6A (e.g., outstanding crew), while they could be purchased as Commander’s options in a patrol scenario, are normally purchased as part of the overall force structure of a patrol scenario and are not within the percentage limits given here.
(S3.211) Under (S1.3) and in most scenarios, ships are allowed to purchase Commander’s Option items up to 20% of the "Effective Adjusted Combat BPV" of the ship (the ship, its refits, and its fighters, but not including the cost of mandatory drone speed upgrades or crew quality adjustments). See (S3.23). If you buy a refit (S3.24) with Commander’s Options, this does not increase the Effective Adjusted Combat BPV.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 04:00 pm: Edit

SPP: I do not think that answers the question. The question is do you pay for legendary officers in a particular order? Stated differently, does the cost of one officer, when a percentage of ship BPV, affect another?

Here's my original clarification to the question:

The Second Outstanding Crew/Legendary Weapons Officer Question
Outstanding crew is found in G21.2. The LWO is found in G22.7. These rules, and the general conditions for legendary officers (G22.0 and G22.1) do not indicate any cost calculation procedures. Such are found only in Annex #6A, as far as I know. Annex #6A does not answer the question one way or another.

Therefore, I cannot argue from the rules themselves one way or another as to how to answer Marcel's question.

That being said, a general principle is that one should read the rule "as written".

Example: I buy a ship worth 100 BPV, which comes with a Legendary Captain and an Outstanding crew. The cost of the captain is 25% the value of the ship, the cost of the crew is 50% the value of the ship.

So, which of the following is the correct cost of the ship:

1) Pay 100 plus (100*0.5) plus (100*0.25) = 175 BPV.

2) Pay 100 plus (100*0.5) for the outstanding crew, for a sub-total of 150 BPV. Then pay 25% on that value for the LC, so 150 + (150*0.25) = 187.5 BPV.

3) Pay 100 plus (100*0.25) for the legendary captain, for a subtotal of 125 BPV. Then pay 50% on that value for the value of the OC, for 125+(125*0.5)= 187.5 BPV.

2 and 3 are the same in this case. However, 2 and 3 are greater than 1.

So, does the purchase of one legendary/outstanding crew increase the cost of another and, if so, in what order are they paid for?


Follow-Up Question
When paying for legendary officers/ crew quality, does one add the cost of drone upgrades bought with force BPV to the cost of the ship before or after calculation of the percentage?

Example: A Kzinti CC has 20 spaces of drones and buys all Type-1 medium speed drones for a cost of 10 BPV (0.5 BPV per drone). The CC costs 135 BPV.

So, if the player purchased a Kzinti CC (medium speed drones) with an outstanding crew, is the cost:

1) (135+10)*1.5 = 217.5 BPV; or

2) (135*1.5)+10 = 212.5 BPV?

Does the answer change if the Kzinti player purchases the drone speed upgrades with commander's options points?

(I.e., in this case, the CC in this case costs 135*1.5 = 202.5 BPV, and (assuming 20% commander's options) pays 10 BPV from the 40.5 BPV in commander's options points available).

Thank you.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 08:11 pm: Edit

It would seem that since ships have slow speed drones included in their ship value as a no charge item, that you would include any speed upgrades as part of the value of the ship. That would seem to mean that your first calculation is correct for the Kzinti. For your 1st question I think the important item is the paragraph in Annex 6A. "The costs in this section do not increase the BPV of the ship/unit, but do count within the overall task force" So based on that you would pay the % based on your 1st computation. But remember it also states the the items in 6A are not commanders options.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Ted, I think that the crew and the LO are based on the same number, ship cost plus any refits and drone speeds that aren't bought with COI points (so 1 above in both cases) …
[Note that COI is also based on this number, IIRC]

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 03:44 pm: Edit

In short, the question (as I understand it) boils down to:

Are Commander's Options surcharges *additive*, or *multiplicative*?

Additive means that you add all of the adjustments together, then multiply the total adjustment by the base BPV.

Multiplicative means that you multiply the base BPV by the first adjustment, then by the 2nd, then by the 3rd, ad infinitum, also known in financial circles as 'compounding'.

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis) on Monday, January 06, 2020 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Sabot question: The rules seem to imply that holding a sabot plasma is done for the same cost as the non sabot torpedo. True?

What is the cost to hold a sabot F torp?

Thanks

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Monday, January 06, 2020 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Dennis Surdu:

(FP11.2) Arming and it sub rules, (FP11.21) Cost, and (FP11.217), and (FP11.23).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 01:01 pm: Edit

I am going to try to write an answer to the legendary officers and outstanding/poor crew questions.

As to Dennis Surdu's question:

(FP11.212) Sabot torpedoes can be held if the non-sabot version of the same torpedo can be held.

Under this rule, a plasma-F sabot can be held in a plasma-F launcher (once fully armed) for no energy cost.

A plasma-F sabot armed normally (that is to say not a fast load/two-turn torpedo) in a a larger launcher (type-G, type-S, type-M, or type-R) required one point of holding energy.

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Thanks for the replies regarding sabot arming. That is how we played them but somehow it seemed less than clear to us that the F could still be held for no cost but we were just over-thinking it. ;-)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, January 14, 2020 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Marcel Trahan, Ted Fay:


SPP:
I do not think that answers the question. The question is do you pay for legendary officers in a particular order? Stated differently, does the cost of one officer, when a percentage of ship BPV, affect another?
Here is my original clarification to the question:
The Second Outstanding Crew/Legendary Weapons Officer Question
Outstanding Crew is found in (G21.2). The Legendary Weapons Officer is found in (G22.7). These rules, and the general conditions for legendary officers [(G22.0) and (G22.1)], do not indicate any cost calculation procedures. Such are found only in Annex #6A, as far as I know. Annex #6A does not answer the question one way or another.
ANSWER: Under (S3.211) "the "Effective Adjusted Combat BPV" of the ship (the ship, its refits, and its fighters, but not including the cost of mandatory drone speed upgrades or crew quality adjustments)." and under Annex #6A "The costs in this section do not increase the BPV of the ship/unit, but do count within the overall force total." Thus if you buy a Legendary Captain you will pay a minimum of 25 points or a maximum of 25% of the BPV of the ship you assign him to. If that ship is lost, the captain "as a unit" is also lost (unless he manages to escape somehow) and will be included in calculating the victory points. But as neither the captain (or an outstanding crew) is part of the ship for purposes of Commander’s Options (they are "units").
So in the case of a Kzinti Command Cruiser, in Y182 with the Y175 refit and fast drones (which might cost anywhere from 10 to 20 BPV depending on how many two space frames you take, and yes I know you used medium speed drones). A Legendary Captain would only cost 33.75 BPV because mandatory drone speeds do not count, and non-mandatory drone speeds are a separate Commander’s Option purchase which does not count.
Both the Legendary Captain and the Mandatory Drone Speed upgrades will count for the Gross Adjusted BPV (S2.14) for figuring out the victory.
The fact that you have a Legendary Captain does not affect the cost of adding an Outstanding Crew or other Legendary Officers to the ship because under Annex #6A "The costs in this section do not increase the BPV of ship unit, but count in the overall force total." So if you added a Legendary Engineer, you would just add 15 points to the Gross Adjusted Combat BPV of your Kzinti Command Cruiser. If you add an Outstanding Crew, you would pay 50% of 135 or 67.5, not 50% of 135 + 15 (LEO) + 33.75 (LC) = 91.75.
Note, that you are under the Patrol Scenario, but your total force is just the one ship you are going to use, and maybe the scenario is a one-on-one duel and all your BPV is tied up in the one ship, or maybe you are taking your one ship up against a pair of D5 war cruisers. That is a Kzinti Command Cruiser with an Outstanding Crew, Legendary Captain, and Legendary Engineer is about equal in BPV to a pair of Klingon D5Ks. But under Annex #6A, the BPV of each Legendary Officer or an Outstanding Crew, or even a Poor Crew, is based on the BPV of the ship without any of them being present. So there is no "order" in which they must be purchased, and they have no effect on increasing (or decreasing in the case of a Poor Crew, except that a Poor Crew cannot have an MRS shuttle) the Commander’s Option Points available to the ship.

Therefore, I cannot argue from the rules themselves one way or another as to how to answer Marcel’s question.
That being said, a general principle is that one should read the rule "as written."
Example: I buy a ship worth 100 BPV, which comes with a Legendary Captain and an Outstanding Crew. The cost of the Legendary Captain is 25% the value of the ship, the cost of the crew is 50% the value of the ship.
So, which of the following is the correct cost of the ship:
1) Pay 100 plus (100*0.5) plus (100*0.25) = 175 BPV.
ANSWERL: This is correct.

2) Pay 100 plus (100*0.5) for the Outstanding Crew, for a sub-total of 150 BPV. Then pay 25% on that value for the Legendary Captain, so 150 + (150*0.25) = 187.5 BPV.
ANSWER: No, because the cost of these elements does not increase the BPV of the ship for purchasing additional elements.

3) Pay 100 plus (100*0.25) for the Legendary Captain, for a subtotal of 125 BPV. Then pay 50% on that value for the value of the Outstanding Crew, for 125+(125*0.5)= 187.5 BPV.
ANSWER: No, because the cost of these elements does not increase the BPV of the ship for purchasing additional elements.

2 and 3 are the same in this case. However, 2 and 3 are greater than 1.
So, does the purchase of one Legendary Officer/Outstanding Crew increase the cost of another and, if so, in what order are they paid for?
ANSWER: As noted under Annex #6A, you purchase each based on the base BPV of the ship they are assigned to.

Follow-Up Question

When paying for Legendary Officers/crew quality, does one add the cost of drone upgrades bought with force BPV to the cost of the ship before or after calculation of the percentage?
ANSWER: Under (S3.211) you do not add Crew upgrades or mandatory drone speed upgrades, and non-mandatory drone speed upgrades are a Commander’s Option which is based on the ship’s BPV.

Example: A Kzinti command cruiser has 20 spaces of drones and buys all type-I medium speed drones for a cost of 10 BPV (0.5 BPV per drone). The command cruiser costs 135 BPV.
COMMENT: A Kzinti Command Cruiser has a normal combat BPV of 135, with 20 medium speed drones, it has a combat BPV of 145. Again, if the drones were purchased as mandatory speed upgrades (post Y167), this has no effect on purchasing crew upgrades under (S3.211), and it they are purchased under Commander’s Options prior to Y168, then they have no effect because they are Commander’s Options purchases.

So, if the player purchased a Kzinti command cruiser (medium speed drones) with an Outstanding Crew, is the cost:
1) (135+10)*1.5 = 217.5 BPV; or
2) (135*1.5)+10 = 212.5 BPV?
ANSWER: It is 135 + 67.5 (50% of 135) + 10 = 212.5

Does the answer change if the Kzinti player purchases the drone speed upgrades with Commander’s Options points?
(I.e., in this case, the command cruiser in this case costs 135*1.5 = 202.5 BPV, and (assuming 20% Commander’s Options) pays 10 BPV from the 40.5 BPV in Commander’s Options points available).
ANSWER: Only in the sense that spending the Commander’s Option Points for drone speed upgrades means they are not available to spend for other Commander’s Options.

Thank you.

My apologies for the delay in responding.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, January 14, 2020 - 05:10 pm: Edit

WOW I am glad we archive these things,

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, January 14, 2020 - 05:11 pm: Edit

SPP, thank you for your thorough answer to the LC/OC - BPV question.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Tuesday, January 14, 2020 - 08:53 pm: Edit

This might have been asked before and there may be no way do to it....

I recently got the 2012 master rulebook in PDF. I am wondering if there is a way to index the table of contents so that when I "click" an item in the table of contents, like E4.0 Photon torpedoes, I will be taken directly to the E4.0 content in the PDF. Like a hyperlink within a PDF.

Thanks.