Archive through January 15, 2020
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Ships of the Orion Enclave:
Archive through January 15, 2020
per the canon history, one of the many esoteric clauses of the Orion Enclave being incorporated into the Federation was one that left the Enclave responsible for performing "Police" work.
IIRC, there is already an EY design more or less equivalent to the POL in existence. Maybe it's in the National Guard listings/ module?
I propose we discuss what the enclave had when it was formed, and how that changed over time. ESPECIALLY during the period it was neutral during the GW.
You have to assume that there was SOMETHING heavier than a CL available locally (to deal with wandering monsters at the least)... The government wouldn't want to be 100% dependent on Mercenaries.
Module R8 has "Provincial Government Security Forces" Destroyer and DDV classes. Both are relatively weak ships (55 and 61 BPV respectively), but I suspect that, before the start of the General War, the Orion authorities would have the chutzpah to DEMAND Federation Star Fleet help with any "Wandering Monsters" (quoting the otherwise pointedly ignored agreements between the Enclave and the rest of the Federation), and once The War was going full swing, they'd be able to rely on Federation standard fighters, again on demand from another provision in the Orion Enclave Agreement (taking fighter strength away from front-line squadrons?) until they started production of their own gunboats; observationally identical to the ones used by Pirates (in yet ANOTHER display of chutzpah).
As far as anything beyond that, Module R8 also has freighter hulled auxiliaries and, in my opinion, the L-AC (R1.59) is a wholly acceptable ship. Not great, mind you, but is fully capable of reaching Speed 31 AND actually fighting (if not all that well) at that speed.
Still, I have to admit that I've also thought about what the Orions might be like if they were to use "Pirate" ships WITHOUT the special "Pirate Rules" (no stealth bonus, no suicide bombs, no engine doubling) as a major empire or as a sort of chivalric order that serve as protectors of those unable to protect themselves.
(Imagine that; freighters pleading for protection TO an Orion ship!!)
Michael and JGA:
I guess the question really comes down to just how much police presence does the Orion Enclave require?
Remember, we are talking about more than one planet or even a F&E hex, it's more than a province iirc, and includes bases (one star base.) and I would have to go and look on the map... isn't there a minor planet in the enclave as well?
Just "straight up" police duty, the existing destroyer class is sufficient to handle revenue, customs inspections, search and rescue, even assist in salvage operations. The DDV class, (depending on what fighters are on board) backed up with two or more destroyers should "in theory" be able to handle a CA or CC level threat.
Anything more serious (can anyone say Jugernaught?) would require a Navy, like star fleet. Unless the Orion Enclave inherit ed a monitor when it seceded from the Federation, there is little chance to get Dreadnought level fire power, which, in most cases isn't needed.
Now, since module R8 was mentioned, it needs to be pointed out the ships in that module were national guard. I wonder if the Orion National government might bid on any ships of the Orion pirate cartels that star fleet might capture? Give those ships a "brothers of the Anarchist" refit suitable for Federation service, and you have a core of ethnic Orion type hulls.
Now, whether the Federation would allow it, is another question! 
There is no starbase in the Enclave on the basic F&E map. Is there any data to suggest that the battlestation was later upgraded to a starbase? Or that a base or shipyard was present at the Orion homeworld?
Empires such as the LDR and Vudar build ships without needing a starbase, using a smaller shipyard type thing (mentioned somewhat in Minor Empires from F&E).
I think the Orion Enclave would be similar. No starbase, some sort of ship construction thing like the Vudar/LDR.
There's a Construction Dry Dock. It's in module R11, rule number (R1.80).
My guess is that the Orions have one in their Enclave for "Official Orion Enclave Business Ships," but likely have at least one more so they can build other ships.
A guess on my part, but they'd expect that the shipyards/Construction Dry Dock in their home territory would be infiltrated by the GIA, but if it were ALWAYS, 100% "Honest as the Day is long," it would keep the Federation council from being able to take legitimate action against them for their treaty violations.
On the other hand, the "Secret, Hidden" shipyard can be (under?)staffed by people who've been vetted like CRAZY and who are STILL kept isolated.
It's also possible that the construction people get rotated in and out in ships that prevent them from being able to identify where the heck they are, and the shipyards themselves can be around a newly formed star, deep inside a dark nebula.
(Mind you, these are just some quick thoughts from the dark recesses of my lower intestinal tract; in other words, I'm just pulling them out of my...)
There are also construction docks in the Campaign Designer's Handbook. They come in three flavors, small, medium and large (CDH, pgs 93 to 95; R1.C3 to C1). The small dock can create 1 size-class 4 unit, medium can create 1 size-class 4 unit and 1 size-class 3 unit, and the large dock can create 1 size-class 4 unit, 1 size-class 3 unit and 1 size-class 2 unit.
The Orions have also had generations to set up their offbook operations, both in what becomes Federation space and in the "pirate kingdoms" in Romulan space. Many of those locations could have sufficient populations of their own that they wouldn't need to rotate workers in or out. The only contacts would be from (robot) freighters dropping off materials or crews flying out completed ships.
(Can the warships themselves be flown uncrewed? New construction just appears out of warp near a pirate base with no indication of where it's from?)
If only a few hundred workers are needed to build a raider, a couple of salvage cruisers could fly the whole operation into someplace quiet and lay out the construction cradle. Once the new raider can fly, it departs elsewhere for final refitting.
If the police look to be paying too much attention to a sector, the operation packs up and moves elsewhere, leaving behind a jumble of rusted steel beams under the tree canopy (or under a lake).
"Robot freighters dropping off..."
NOPE. Sooner or later a Navy or Police ship (or an independant pirate) would see that thing and follow it to it's destination.
It's destination being a small university research team restocking their food replicators...just like the other 37 stops it's made on its route that week.
Just how many police ships do you have assigned to grain freighter duty? Aren't there like thousands of them?
Another thing to remember about freighters, in particular the small freighters, is that they have small crews; small and usually VERY close. As was stated in the color text on Klingon Workboats, the ability of the intelligence services to slip an agent in to these tight groups is VERY limited.
As with so much else, this is just a guess, but I'd imagine that only the freighter masters, and by default their close, tight knit crews, who've long proven their loyalty would be given the coordinates to one of those top secret construction facilities.
On the other hand, I'd imagine there are some freighters that make use of a rotational crew. I'd also guess that the Cartels would likely have quite a few freighters from their front companies operate with rotational crews. However, I also expect that those freighters would be mastered by folks who haven't established QUITE the same level of trust with the Crimelords.
Another thing I can well imagine can involve the "Small University Research Team" you brought up, Szamboni...
Picture a GWS set up on an asteroid, analyzing a star formation "Nursery Nebula." With its special sensor, it's constantly scanning and analyzing the gasses, trying to pry the secrets of planetary formation from the vast cloud of gas.
I'd suspect that even the most scientific of Police crews would get bored to tears in a few days from hearing the droning lectures of the scientists present.
On the other hand, the research facility is financially backed by one of the myriad of front companies and/or money laundering operations of the Cartel, who use it, and in particular its special sensor, to make sure the region is clear before allowing one of the supply freighters, ostensibly delivering food and/or mail to the researchers, to go to the shipyard that's well hidden in the dense gasses.
I was suggesting robot freighters as only the one guy who programmed the route knows where it stopped along the way, which is even more secure than a cartel crew. A typical smuggler crew probably looks like a frat party when compared to the units that service black sites.
I mentioned research teams specifically with the GWS in mind. Running a smuggler past the station could also give the GWS a peek to see if there's another ship tagging along behind the freighter. Only one member of the station staff has to be corrupted, a grad student with a burner subspace phone to use if the sensor picks up a mystery ship (and it's a really nice sensor thanks to a anonymous benefactor).
No one else in the station should notice anything odd about the scheduled resupply, or that the resupply ship made a second stop on the other side of the star while the sensor was down for the nightly maintenance.
Robot freighters? I don't see it.
1) Independant pirates would pick those things off by the dozen. "How was I to know that was a Cartel shipment?"
2) A small freighter has one crew unit?
3) With no crew, that robot freighter will break down and get stranded. THEN when someone wanders by to salvage/ tow it, they will certainly crack open the computer banks...
Robot freighters appeared in multiple TOS and TAS episodes as well as in multiple SFU scenarios. The ships exist, and they don't come with a dozen prisoners that can easily be cracked open for information.
Somewhere between there being enough police ships to stop all smuggling and enough pirate ships to stop all freight lies an equilibrium that allows the SFU to operate as it does. Freighters seem to be successful enough to make it worthwhile to continue using them, and losses to pirate activity haven't reached the point that anyone's bothered to stress over it besides some token police resources.
(Just imagining the poor guy who stops to hack the dashboard of a abandoned Prius on the side of the road, the one with no seats, no steering wheel, and a claymore mine wired to the door handle...with a OnStar Cartel battlecruiser coming up the road from the other direction.)
(Stealing wheat at $2 a bushel also isn't the most cost-efffection way to fund a warship, which is why Prii can clog the trade routes like they do in relative safety.)
This may sound complicated, but what about using SLV as support ships for the Cartel ship construction facility?
If one has Special Sensors in its option mounts, it can probably detect a police ship MUCH further away than the police will see it, especially with its "Orion Stealth" hull coating and design.
A regular freighter, Free Trader, or SAL goes to a pre-planned meeting place, this ship would see if it's been followed, and only if the coast is clear will it meet up with its supplier. Then, it can take the necessary parts to the hidden facility.
Given the rather furtive nature of these meetings, there's always a potential for "Stoppages due to lack of parts," but I suspect the Cartel Bosses would rather have production of new ships slowed than to risk losing something as valuable as a shipyard.
I would posit that the cargo is toted to a predetermined location in the middle of nowhere and the WHOLE POD is dropped off. (Semi) Innocent Freighter then goes on it's way.
Pirate ship with special sensor sits silently and watches the area for a couple days. This could be an elderly LR or something similar.
THEN a pirate freighter goes and picks up the pod. Route is designed to go through some rough terrain (asteroid field, skirting a nebula, through sunspots, etc) before settling onto it's final course. THIS crew knows where the cargo is going.
While that makes sense, Mike, on the very rare chance that someone observes the "(Semi) Innocent Freighter" dropping the pod off will KNOW something isn't on the level.
On the other hand, if the Orions, through a front company, have a small prospecting freighter "Working" a site, it's kind of a fig-leaf that the Orions would use as part of their PR campaign.
I think the biggest problem would have with this sort of Bravo-Sierra is that the Federation Police forces would recognize that this "Prospecting" job is just as legitimate as the old Soviet "Trawlers" were for fishing back in the days...
I suspect that the Orions don't bother with too much subterfuge.
While most raids just steal a bit of cargo, they do semi-regularly steal entire freighters.
If the police were watching such an operation, they got involved way back at the "take the freighter" stage. So you're fairly sure to be clear of police involvement.
Your front company needs to occasionally lose a freighter so it won't be too obvious that pirates don't attack you. Load what the shipyard needs on a freighter, that freighter is pirated, you collect the insurance, the pirate yard gets what it wants.
Done. You're steeling entire freighters and hiding them without the police catching you. Getting cargo somewhere without the police noticing should not be a hard problem.
I started thinking about what the cargo manifests of the stolen ships might show, but then thought, "That's stupid; why would the Orions have honest, truthful manifests on those ships?"
Police sector commander: "Okay, who'd want to steal a whole freighter full of combine harvesters?"
No, the only possible problem I see is getting the "Pirated Freighter" to the shipyard AFTER it's been grabbed; if it's "Pirated" too close to the yard (say, within a twenty light-year radius?), then after two or three "Incidents," even the densest of Police folks are going to take notice.
Police sector commander: "Hmm, this company, Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe Shipping, a company we've been suspicious of being a front for the Orions for some time now, has had more ships taken in this small area than in the rest of the sector combined, and they're the only company that has had that happen. What's going on there?"
Instead of shipping by Freighter,
why not install stuff needed for the new ship on the freighter......
It's not like SF Police are checking VIN numbers on stuff running the freighter....
Then just dismantle the freighter and use the parts.....
Wait a minute...
I thought this topic was a request for a Orion Enclave built CL type ship built locally.
If all you guys want is a freighter variant, why not just call for an armed freighter?
Of course, it will not be as good as a CL style warship, but it's better than stealing a vanilla freighter, and THEN trying to upgun it to 90 to 100 BPVs.
I would assume no enclave Dreadnoughts the money would not be there for such a ship
This topic is about the ships the Orion Enclave uses for police duties. We know they have their own tidy little POL equivalent.
The question is: when they were neutral did they build some POL leaders? Frigates? Destroyers? A CL?
Not to go pirating, but to back up the enclave Police. Fight monsters. Whatever. Besides I can see several alternative paths.
1) "Buy" an Orion pirate style BC hull without the crazy pirate engine hype stuff.
2) Convert an "interned" ship or two from the Feds/ Klinks.
3) Get gifted a ship by the Feds/ Klinks to keep them sweet. A well used Fed FF and F5 would be cool. Especially after they get converted to the local version of the FFB andF6!
4) Slap together the stuff from an Aux heavy cruiser with an "Armed freighter" hull.
I almost forgot.
5) the Feds/ Klinks/ whoever GIVE them a "captured ship" just to be nice. And because honestly it wasn't worth the effort to covert it to local tech by the capturing empire. So suddenly you have a Orion Romulan SKH...
Orion is a wealthy planet. They certainly could afford to build ships and non ship units for local defenses.
As a full member world of the Federation, they could have any "authorized" technology that they want.
A partial list almost certainly should include:
Monitor.
Some sort of orbital base (commercial platform, SAMs, possibly even a BAse station.)
Def Sats.
Major world level PDU(4 Planetary defense battalions.)
One or more operation bases with 5 or 6 skiffs for each.)
Depending on the year, fighter or bomber squadrons.
Some number of Orion Destroyers.
Again, depending on the year, a carrier(a variant of the DD.)
Some sort of national guard squadron:GCA,GDD,GFF.
And there should be one or more civilian ship building and repair facilities. Possible even a Planetary FRD for repairing civilian ships.
Might even have MORE free traders than normally appear because of the number of merchants living on Orion. Probably has APTs because of the number of Orion businesses that operate through out the Federation.
What have I missed.