Oh wait.

The Federation Express Corporation operations developed on Population density. That means, each Major world (outside of the Capital Hex) has a "Trunk line" using regular freighters and the famed Fed Ex courier ships. It also means distribution of Mail and package delivery gets transhipped from Orion to worlds and other star systems using contract messengers(APTs, Free Traders,Skiffs or even(if close enough) cargo shuttles).

It also means that a separate "trunk line" service was established to service The Tholian Holdfast sometime after the start of the General War.

I would have to look at the map, any other major or minor planets in the area between Orion and the Tholian Holdfast would also have a Trunkline with full services.

Basically means a base or facilities just to service all the Federal Express ships and personnel. Not as big as the facilities in the Earth star system, but enough to dock ships for fueling, cargo transfer, passenger facilities etc.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 - 08:53 am: Edit

I'm not following.

When the Orions are part of the Federation, they are protected by Star Fleet and Federation Police just like everyone else in the Federation. No need for special ships, and they likely aren't even wanted as it would make things stand out. Besides, this lets the Federation pay for this stuff.

When the Orion Enclave is "independent", it would just "hire" some Orion Pirate "mercenaries". It's not like they aren't available for use. Why make something new, when what you need is already present and available for use? The Enclave probably isn't wild about this arrangement, as it ends up paying for the operation of these "mercenaries" itself instead of letting them go out and make money from someone else, but ships are ships and these solve the immediate problem.

Also, there are no "civilian" Orion gunboats (outside the workboat, which is a special case). All Orion gunboats are Orion pirate gunboats. But, again, that's fine, as any that are needed are simply "hired" as "mercenaries" as they are needed.

Not seeing any need for special new or special ships.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 - 11:51 am: Edit

Mike, I have no doubt, for most member worlds of the Federation that you are correct.

The Orion's are different. They have, by special treaty exemption, the right to police their own space. And they do it with unique ships in the form of the DEstroyer and carrier designs that have already been published.

The question is to what FURTHER extent (caps for emphasis, not shouting) extent Orion's would have gone to in expanding The constabulary forces before the war, and once the Enclave is established, what ships they decided to add to their defense forces after leaving the Federation. (Even if it was foe a temporary period.)

It's all well and good to argue, if you want, that the Orions wouldn't have expanded their forces.

But the destroyer and carrier designs exist. The Orion's plainly HAVE gone to the effort to design, build and deploy a fleet of police ships.

Plus, you are misstating the topic.

This is NOT a discussion about Orion gunboats, that was a different thread.

This is about the need for a CL ship for the Orion Enclave. It might extend to converting any "Orion Enclave era CL ships built" to include refits to serve in the Orion constabulary Patrol after the orions rejoin the Federation. (FLG, CV or tug refits for example).

Also, iirc the Orion government claims to be independent of the Orion cartels. Are you saying the history is wrong? That the Orion Cartels actually do run the Orion government, as well as octant wide criminal activities? (Who knew!?!)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. What I am saying is this:

1) The destroyer and carrier from R8 are NOT police ships. They are National Guard ships. They are also heavily refitted Early Years ships. I suppose they could still have some Early Years cruisers stuffed in a closet somewhere, and maybe we'll see that ship? (I mean, maybe it has already been published somewhere? It's just an Early Years cruiser with 12 point engines and modern systems.)

Also, these ships are not "designs" so much as relics that have been refitted over and over. I imagine they are pretty much irreplaceable, as they certainly aren't going to build any of these new.

As such, their actual police forces are probably just standard Federation units. Maybe they are manned by Orion personnel, instead of "Federation" personnel, but they would still just be standard Federation designs.

2) The only time they could possibly need units of some kind is during the relatively small window of time while they are semi-independent in the General War. At this point, they are free to do pretty much whatever they want. However, why make a whole new ship? They absolutely didn't with their NG ships, as those are just leftover relics. I really don't see any new Orion designs being made for this.

As I said in my prior post, they just have to hire Pirate mercenaries do do their dirty work for them. Whether I should use quotes around "hire" and "mercenary", they still are maintaining the distinction between the political government and the Pirates. They are specifically NOT crossing that line by hiring mercenaries; they are still keeping the distinction front and center. The relationship isn't changed in any way by using them as mercenaries. (I mean even the Federation itself has theoretically used them as mercenaries, and the Klingons definitely have. I can't see why the semi-independent Orions doing so would be any different or more significant.)

3) I just mentioned the Orion gunboat thing as an aside, as it was mentioned earlier in the topic. Yes, there was another discussion about it; just trying to make sure it doesn't get resurrected.

I am still failing to see where a new design fits in. In fact, even the existing ships referenced don't really count, as the R8 NG ships are just refitted EY ships. Now, again, if you want to convince the Steves to do a NG version of the EY Orion cruiser, go for it. I'm game. But I doubt that is what is being asked for.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Hmm. Spinning off of Mike Grafton's option (5) above, how about if the Federation gives the Orion Enclave a captured F5 rear hull and the Orions then weld the front half of an Orion Police Destroyer to it? Alternatively, the Klingons could give the Enclave a worn out F5 and the boom just gets replaced to improve combat capability. It would be kind of a baby brother to the Orion Pirate OK6.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Mike West:

See R8.47 regarding the Orion National Police Destroyer:

"These ships were outwardly very similar to the Orion YDD, but were new construction using advanced (and smaller) components..."

The Orion DD is not a "National Guard" refit of a Y-era hull.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 02:52 am: Edit

SPP, we seem to be getting over our heads in what the Canon is. Can you weigh in please?

1) It is already established in the CANON that the Enclave operated it's own police.

2) When the enclave became neutral during the GW you then have the issue of how do they deal with stuff too big for the known Destroyers and Carriers (which are basically the local versions of a POL and POL CV)?

3) The enclave does NOT (???) have a military grade ship yard to build biggish ships. Else it would be reflected as some loss of ship production ability by the Feds when the enclave goes neutral. F&E reference? Col Strong?

4) so what do they do????

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 09:16 am: Edit

Jason:

OK, I stand corrected on the new build stuff. What threw me for a loop is why they would keep using crappy engines instead of "real" engines if they are new construction. (I would expect eight point engines, rather than six point engines, being new construction.) Unexpected, but, so be it.

However, the overall points on the ship still remain: These are National Guard ships, not police ships; if they made a cruiser it would still look like what I described whether it is a conversion of an ancient ship or a new build. They are not making whole new designs; there is little reason to do so.

And, again, I am failing to see how hiring mercenaries doesn't solve the problem.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Mercenaries, at least short-term mercenaries, tend to be a less reliable option than a (presumably) loyal home-grown force. I could see the Enclave hiring them short term, for the first year or two of quasi-independence, as an "Oh ****!" moment expedient while they figured out a more permanent security solution. Once the Enclave has a little time to get their house in order, however, I can't see why they wouldn't go with a more permanent solution.

In the real world, most mercenary employments tend to be of the short-term expedient nature, precisely because of reliability issues. The exceptions tend to come up either when there is a very long history to the mercenary force (French Foreign Legion, Swiss Guards) or when it simply isn't possible to get a reliable local force (palace guards for a corrupt and repressive dictator, for example).

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Post mercenary phase, why wouldn't they just buy a couple of Orion units like the WYN use? i.e. no engine doubling.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 06:08 pm: Edit

We got this ship in a sting operation and we're keeping it …

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 09:48 pm: Edit

I agree with Jason, the Orions would not have wanted to rely on mercenaries for more than a couple of years.

As the LDR demonstrated, mercenaries can be a liability, either providing a pretext for invasion by neighboring states or simply choosing to cancel their contracts when the going gets tough. Only a home grown Navy can be relied upon as deterrent.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, January 17, 2020 - 03:46 am: Edit

Note that the Canon ALREADY says that the majority of the Orion military is NOT pirates and such.

They don't need to hire professionals. They need SHIPS to allow their professionals to address issues that the small POL equivalent ships they already have cannot deal with.

Like a decent sized space dragon. any pirate larger than a CR. Death probe. Banshees. Sunsnake. etc.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, January 17, 2020 - 07:38 am: Edit

Does rule R8.47 not getting us a structure to follow?

It says (paraphrasing a little) that the Orion police DD followed the pattern of the YDD.

Let us look at the Orion YCL for a new build pattern for a Orion National Police flagship.

And assuming they have a FLG in production using a modified YCL pattern, it shouldn't be a huge leap to get to a Orion Enclave CL. Infact, you could even extrapolate a leader variant CLL.

Call it a obvious variant, and let Petrick draw it up.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Friday, January 17, 2020 - 08:14 pm: Edit

I agree that, in Y171, the Orions would have seen a need for larger and/or more modern ships.

When they were part of the Federation, the Orions could rely on Star Fleet to handle any threat or mission that their National Guard or Police forces could not handle and they benefited from having a substantial buffer between themselves and any hostile states. After independence, they are suddenly a buffer state between two hostile allied empires and, given the uncertainties of war and politics, even the Federation itself couldn't be discounted as a threat.

I would point out that the Orions in Y171 had no idea what the future course of the war would be. They had no way of knowing that they would be independent for "only" ten years (that's actually a pretty long stretch of time, 20 strategic turns!) and a Coalition victory seemed very likely as late as Y173. Even the optimists were looking at the possibility of a long war or potential stalemate. The Orions would have had to prepare for the possibility of charting a future as an independent minor power, perhaps on the LDR model, while leaving open the option of rejoining the Federation at some indefinite point in the future.

Like the LDR, this would involve a combination of diplomacy and trade (playing each neighbor against the other) backed by enough military strength to make the costs of invasion outweigh the benefits. While the bulk of the defenses would be attrition units, a small modern fleet able to respond quickly to aggression would be indispensable. And there would be no better time to build a fleet then when your neighbors are busy fighting each other and you're raking in profits from trading with both sides.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, January 17, 2020 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Without a shipyard, the Orions can't realistically hold off a major power and they don't start with a serious shipyard (which takes 3 years to make). So I dunno what they could realistically do to fend off a real invasion.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Friday, January 17, 2020 - 11:12 pm: Edit

3 years works. They were independent for 10 years and, as I said before, they had to assume that independence might be the new normal so I could see them beginning construction of a shipyard almost immediately.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 12:18 am: Edit

They need a ship yard to produce mobile bases. Once they get a MB, they could upgrade to a base station or a BATS. From there a star base. A star base would allow for construction of size class 4 ships.

They must have some ability to produce civilian ships. freighters, free traders, APT. There are armed versions of the civilian ships.

What the Orion Enclave is very short of, is command ratings. Other than bases, there is no realistic path to a F&E command rate 10 ship, ever.

Just as well that they rejoined the Federation. They ran the risk of being targeted by the Andromedans like the LDR was.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 01:03 am: Edit

They're also short on EPs. Full shipyards cost 15 EPs a turn. Presumably they'd have to come up with something smaller.

MBs cost 10EP, and then a BATS is more. The final conversion to a SB is over 30 EPs. Note that the LDR and the Vudar (and later the Seltorians) never build a SB, so it's REALLY unlikely that the Orions could. The LDR could only build a few ships a turn, and that's possibly after decades of independance (I don't recall their production schedule over that time).

The LDR did start with a fleet at least, which is more than the Orions Enclave can really boast.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 11:36 am: Edit

Richard Eitzen:

The Cygnians had less, since they were oppressed by the Kzinti Hegemony.

They managed it, (granted, with Federation help.)

The Enclave has the national police destroyers, and the carrier variant. All other class needs will have to be filled (out of necessity) by conversions of civilian ships.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 01:54 pm: Edit

'with Federation help'

...

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 03:21 pm: Edit

The Orions already have a BATS in 2911.

As to the Orion economy, they have a base wartime economy of 10 EP but I assume they would get "trade bonuses" in the same manner as the LDR as described in MINOR EMPIRES (2 EP for each major empire they trade with, 4 EP if that empire is at war). That would give them a potential income of 22 EP a turn once the Romulans enter the picture. We also can't rule out that they might have had a rainy day "slush fund" and perhaps (like the LDR) some additional income from colonies.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 03:42 pm: Edit

I wonder if the BATS in 2911 could form the basis of a "fort Sumter" scenario. (Check American history, the attack on ft Sumter was the spark that ultimately ignited the American Civil War.)

Say a small cadre of "loyal Federation" starfeet personnel attempted to hold out against the "rebel Orion alliance" intent on seizing the BATS for the Orion Enclave...

Just trying to assemble an assault on a BATS (with a squadron of F-18B fighters?!?) would take time. I will have to look, but at a guess, the balance just might favor the BATS.

At the very least, it could end up being a siege, rather than an assault...

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Historically, I'm guessing that control of the base (and other Star Fleet facilities within the Enclave) would have been peacefully transferred to the Orions.

Perhaps the scenario could be based on a trivideo drama "inspired by real events"?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 04:46 pm: Edit

It does sort of scream for a investigative journalist.

I wonder where we can find someone like that?